The first player on Gatlands team

First topic message reminder :

Its Stuart Hogg

no question whatsoever

Who is the best all round full back at the Lions disposal?

Liam williams?  Or Hogg. Or maybe Maitland

Hogg is super in attack but against the ABs defence is definitely an issue. Sean O'Brien used him as a small speed bump in the first game. I'd want him to be on the plane, but not a certainty in a strong position.

The first name that would spring to mind for me is Sexton. Farrell will obviously be in the mix.

If the full back has to make more than a handful of tackles per game, there is something seriously wrong with the defensive line. He really should be the last resort. Good tackling isn't that much of a necessity for a 15, but it is an asset. Positioning, aerial skills, place kicking and an ability to counter-attack are far more important.

For me, it is between Stuart Hogg and Liam Williams (who should be starting at 15 for Wales).

I'd say best all-round FB might be Liam Williams (and he's well-respected in New Zealand), but there are a lot of good players in that position.

Winzer wrote:Hogg is super in attack but against the ABs defence is definitely an issue.  Sean O'Brien used him as a small speed bump in the first game.  I'd want him to be on the plane, but not a certainty in a strong position.

The first name that would spring to mind for me is Sexton.  Farrell will obviously be in the mix.  

If we're discounting every player that Sean O'Brien has used as a speed bump we might find our player pool has just dramatically shrunk

"If we're discounting every player that Sean O'Brien has used as a speed bump we might find our player pool has just dramatically shrunk"

Okay, fair point!

The answer is Halfpenny. He's the best all round full back. His decision making, calmness under pressure, long range goal kicking, speed, bravery, awareness is all top notch.

Hogg is a luxury player. New Zealand would slice through him.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The answer is Halfpenny. He's the best all round full back. His decision making, calmness under pressure, long range goal kicking, speed, bravery, awareness is all top notch.

Hogg is a luxury player. New Zealand would slice through him.

That would be a coaching problem then, as it would be strange to have Hogg as part of the defensive line and not sweeping/fielding at the back. He should only be there to cover those who do slice through the defensive line. The reality is that when NZ do make a break, they score regardless of who is at 15. Their support play is just too good.

Also, Halfpenny's decision making isn't that good. He often blows counterattacking opportunities because his natural response is always to put boot to ball. He needs to be reminded to actually run the ball back from time to time.

Liam Williams is a much better option.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Liam Williams is a much better option.

Not going to happen either given Gatland's form for playing him at wing, presumably as he sees Halfpenny as the better 15.

How can such a Prolific try scorer be a "luxury player"? Do you really think any fullback we have would fare better than Hogg in a one on one with Savea or Barrett?

I want Williams and Hogg on the pitch at the same time, with someone like Maitland or Nowell on the other wing. If you have a strong midfield like Henshaw and Joseph or Ringrose with Murray and Farrel as the half backs, you have a strong line defence, thus negating the need for a plugger at full back.

Not to mention a very dynamic group of forwards the full back hopefully won't be called on to make to many scrambling cover tackles.

As others have posted if the all blacks break the line they will almost certainly score a try no matter who the fullback is.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:How can such a Prolific try scorer be a "luxury player"? Do you really think any fullback we have would fare better than Hogg in a one on one with Savea or Barrett?

I want Williams and Hogg on the pitch at the same time, with someone like Maitland or Nowell on the other wing. If you have a strong midfield like Henshaw and Joseph or Ringrose with Murray and Farrel as the half backs, you have a strong line defence, thus negating the need for a plugger at full back.

Not to mention a very dynamic group of forwards the full back hopefully won't be called on to make to many scrambling cover tackles.

As others have posted if the all blacks break the line they will almost certainly score a try no matter who the fullback is.

Look you make some very good points but you're forgetting the basics. Hogg is a little too............... well, Scottishy. That's not bad in itself but for Lions tactics, Gats is going to have trouble finding him a role.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:How can such a Prolific try scorer be a "luxury player"? Do you really think any fullback we have would fare better than Hogg in a one on one with Savea or Barrett?

I want Williams and Hogg on the pitch at the same time, with someone like Maitland or Nowell on the other wing. If you have a strong midfield like Henshaw and Joseph or Ringrose with Murray and Farrel as the half backs, you have a strong line defence, thus negating the need for a plugger at full back.

Not to mention a very dynamic group of forwards the full back hopefully won't be called on to make to many scrambling cover tackles.

As others have posted if the all blacks break the line they will almost certainly score a try no matter who the fullback is.

You're selecting on the "we'll score more tries than you" school of rugby. It doesn't work like that.

The "last line of defence" thinking is way outdated. The fullback has to defend on the flank all the time. And Hogg is poor in this area. He's a good option to have in a squad granted as he's lethal. But not a good all round 15.

He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

Surely it's more along the lines of pick your key players and try to get a good side round them.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:How can such a Prolific try scorer be a "luxury player"? Do you really think any fullback we have would fare better than Hogg in a one on one with Savea or Barrett?

I want Williams and Hogg on the pitch at the same time, with someone like Maitland or Nowell on the other wing. If you have a strong midfield like Henshaw and Joseph or Ringrose with Murray and Farrel as the half backs, you have a strong line defence, thus negating the need for a plugger at full back.

Not to mention a very dynamic group of forwards the full back hopefully won't be called on to make to many scrambling cover tackles.

As others have posted if the all blacks break the line they will almost certainly score a try no matter who the fullback is.

You're selecting on the "we'll score more tries than you" school of rugby. It doesn't work like that.

The "last line of defence" thinking is way outdated. The fullback has to defend on the flank all the time. And Hogg is poor in this area. He's a good option to have in a squad granted as he's lethal. But not a good all round 15.

No he isn't

he is not a good as some, but he is far from poor

I really wish people would give ever player the same benefit - rather than jump on a player making a mistake - fans focus on it and see one thing (As they are looking for it) and then jump on it -

RugbyFan100 wrote:The answer is Halfpenny. He's the best all round full back. His decision making, calmness under pressure, long range goal kicking, speed, bravery, awareness is all top notch.

Hogg is a luxury player. New Zealand would slice through him.

Give me Hogg over Halfpenny any day and over Brown and Kearney as well.

For the back three I'd take Hogg and players like Maitland and Williams with the best two of the specialist wingers North, Nowell perhaps

R!skysports wrote:

I really wish people would give ever player the same benefit - rather than jump on a player making a mistake - fans focus on it and see one thing (As they are looking for it) and then jump on it -

You're absolutely right. And it's why all teams benefit from not being picked by fans - fans have immediate needs and are immediate critics.

If anything, seeing the fullback as the "last line of defence" is more apt in modern rugby than ever before. Defences are a lot tougher to break through, hence why they are required to make so few tackles each game. It is also why many will prefer to choose an extra attacking dimension from the back. Being a good tackler is a valuable asset, but it isn't a necessity.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

Good example of many of the things that have been discussed today. Hogg has to sweep up errors made by the defensive line. It also displays the importance of his pace in making those covering tackles, which puts him ahead of many of his competitors.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

Good example of many of the things that have been discussed today. Hogg has to sweep up errors made by the defensive line. It also displays the importance of his pace in making those covering tackles, which puts him ahead of many of his competitors.

And his ability to make Nowell fall over, evidenced in the third.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

We can all link to good and bad things he's done. I believe he's not as good an all round 15 as Halfpenny, and I believe the Lions coach thinks this too.

If they're not attacking the standing leg of a scrum half...

RugbyFan100 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

We can all link to good and bad things he's done. I believe he's not as good an all round 15 as Halfpenny, and I believe the Lions coach thinks this too.

Thanks that's most helpful. Does a stupid mistake made when he was 21 rule him out of selection?

Apparently

I'm trying to make a constructive contribution to these boards, posting that up, I have no idea what you are trying to do.

Would people go for the best all round player in all positions? Only certain ones? Or look for key assessts?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

We can all link to good and bad things he's done. I believe he's not as good an all round 15 as Halfpenny, and I believe the Lions coach thinks this too.

Thanks that's most helpful. Does a stupid mistake made when he was 21 rule him out of selection?

Apparently

I'm trying to make a constructive contribution to these boards, posting that up, I have no idea what you are trying to do.  

It's pretty obvious that one clip either way isn't going to solve anything as he has good points and bad points. Therefore, I thought I was being clear making that point with a clip totally out of context. Obviously not.

There's out of context and then there's massively outdated.

A video highlighting a game in which he was defensively strong backs up claims he's not a bad defender whereas a video of him getting sent off years ago proves nothing.

Halfpenny was a fine player but he offers very little in comparison to Hogg.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He's really not poor. 3 try saving tackles in one game.

https://youtu.be/gz8YoLHjDu4

Its easy to tackle a guy whos just face planted

Who makes the tackle when he's the one who misses?

The point is that he shouldn't have to make so many of those last ditch tackles. If the All Blacks break through as easily as that, they will win regardless of how well the 15 can defend.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:There's out of context and then there's massively outdated.

A video highlighting a game in which he was defensively strong backs up claims he's not a bad defender whereas a video of him getting sent off years ago proves nothing.

Halfpenny was a fine player but he offers very little in comparison to Hogg.

That sounds like common sense? On a lions thread???!!! You have come to the wrong place Harrier!!!

Halfpenny is a tremendous player and should tour. Start the Tests? I understand why he would get the nod, but I want my full back to attack the line more, create opportunities, score tries. Hogg does that better than Halfpenny I think. Hence why I'd choose him. It's also why I'd pick Williams instead of halfpenny.

That's not where his problem is though, its like the Fickou try, he was very soft in his attempt to tackle and pretty much sidestepped himself to give Fickou a clearer path to the try line instead of standing in front of him

marty2086 wrote:That's not where his problem is though, its like the Fickou try, he was very soft in his attempt to tackle and pretty much sidestepped himself to give Fickou a clearer path to the try line instead of standing in front of him

Fickou is a unit. 6ft 4 and the best part of 16st. That far from the try line, at pace with the Full Back scrambling over, do you really think Halfpenny or Williams would have fared better?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That's not where his problem is though, its like the Fickou try, he was very soft in his attempt to tackle and pretty much sidestepped himself to give Fickou a clearer path to the try line instead of standing in front of him

Fickou is a unit. 6ft 4 and the best part of 16st. That far from the try line, at pace with the Full Back scrambling over, do you really think Halfpenny or Williams would have fared better?

He wasn't scrambling across though, Fickou was running straight at him and Hogg as good as moved aside for him

If you think Fickous a unit wait until you see guys like Savea and Naholo

I think he should do better really. Fickou is a unit but Hogg seems to want to pick him up by hos waist for some reason. Probably because he was initially out of position, too far infield.

Halfpenny should not tour.

The only thing he can do is kick goals, and there are far better players available that can do the same thing.

To summarise this thread (and the millions of others)....

Welsh fans want Halfpenny or Williams.
English/Scottish & Irish fans want pumpkin head to do what's right and pick the best players in their respective positions.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Halfpenny should not tour.

.

The man of the series on the last Lions tour shouldn't tour?

Now there's sense.

marty2086 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That's not where his problem is though, its like the Fickou try, he was very soft in his attempt to tackle and pretty much sidestepped himself to give Fickou a clearer path to the try line instead of standing in front of him

Fickou is a unit. 6ft 4 and the best part of 16st. That far from the try line, at pace with the Full Back scrambling over, do you really think Halfpenny or Williams would have fared better?

He wasn't scrambling across though, Fickou was running straight at him and Hogg as good as moved aside for him

If you think Fickous a unit wait until you see guys like Savea and Naholo

Well considering the last time Scotland played NZ he made 4 tackles missing none I'm not that worried. I'm not splitting hairs over this. You think he's a terrible defender and I disagree. I'm bored of this now.

Yes.

Man of the series 4 years ago.

That's 4 years.

FOUR years ago.

Interesting I've not heard Fickou be called an unit before but I agree that it can be difficult to stop him at pace.

Agree with marty, Hogg will need to get used to it though.

I criticised Hogg a bit before the 6 nations but I don't think his defence has been that bad. Sure I think he's been taking too much of the praise whilst his team mates in comparison have been unsung but that's not his fault.

Other players have been creating opportunities for Hogg to shine. The try for example vs France, Scotland had the extra man anyway. Against Ireland, the first try he only needed to pick up the ball and basically put it down, for the 2nd try, what he did was excellent but Russell and Jones put good width on the ball for him.

Hogg's been good though.

Was Hogg worried about a high tackle there?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was Hogg worried about a high tackle there?

Did wonder that. Head presented first, perhaps sidestepped to tackle from the side. Obviously then you don't have your weight behind the tackle and it's impossible.

Not an easy tackle to make but if Hogg gets hold of Fickou better potentially him and Maitland could have dragged Fickout out.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Halfpenny should not tour.

.

The man of the series on the last Lions tour shouldn't tour?

Now there's sense.

I also remember Alex Corbisiero having an absolute stormer too. I reckon he should go as well.

Halfpenny is a brilliant player and should go. The test series 4 years ago means absolutely nothing. NZ are a totally different animal than Oz and also, it was 4 years ago.

Fickou is not a small man, sure he's not Bastareud or Roberts but he is a fair chunk of a lad.

I agree with some of what you say Beshocked, that Hogg feeds off good ball from the rest of the Scottish backs, Russell, Dunbar and others create a lot for him. However Arguably Henshaw, Ringrose, JJ, Farrell et al would be able to create as good opportunities for their back 3 players?

So what I'm getting at is surely Russell, Dunbar and Bennett should be leading contenders for Lions too considering how much space and oppertunites they could create for whoever plays fullback and is lucky enough to get such good ball?

Halfpenny has missed a kick

Should never tour again -

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Halfpenny should not tour.

The only thing he can do is kick goals, and there are far better players available that can do the same thing.

To summarise this thread (and the millions of others)....

Welsh fans want Halfpenny or Williams.
English/Scottish & Irish fans, pundits, former players, a mildly racist uncle, anyone not with daffodil coloured glasses, want pumpkin head to do what's right and pick the best players in their respective positions.

Just an update

I would also say Halfpenny should certainly be around about the tour

R!skysports wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Halfpenny should not tour.

The only thing he can do is kick goals, and there are far better players available that can do the same thing.

To summarise this thread (and the millions of others)....

Welsh fans want Halfpenny or Williams.
English/Scottish & Irish fans, pundits, former players, a mildly racist uncle, anyone not with daffodil coloured glasses, want pumpkin head to do what's right and pick the best players in their respective positions.

Just an update

I would also say Halfpenny should certainly be around about the tour

Which is why we won the last tour

In the words of the great Sir David Beckham…'unappreciative c$%^&S'

ruggerradge2611 I am not saying Hogg is a bad player, far from it - he's had a good tournament so far IMO.

Well Russell and co have gone through ups and downs so far in the tournament.

Russell's plus so far IMO has been his creativity for Scotland so far in the tournament but the main criticism has to be putting too much pressure on the rest of the team.

In the 1st half vs Ireland, Russell played well, he put Scotland in good positions and I felt didn't enough credit for that but in the 2nd half, it got messy as Ireland started to exert more control in the forwards, Russell tried things that weren't on.

In two consecutive games now, Russell has tried a grubber through which has been charged down.

Against France, Russell did a sublime pass to help set up the 2nd Scottish try but obviously missed the conversion in front of the posts and kicked the ball out at a restart not long after.

Perhaps Farrell/Ford/Biggar/Sexton don't have Russell's creativity but then again they are also more reliable.

Russell is making too many errors, a team as well polished as NZ would exploit this more.

With the Scottish scrum struggling so badly and the Scottish forwards not giving Russell much to work with he really struggled.

Against NZ there will be periods of the game where the Lions will be under sustained pressure, is Russell really the 10 who can stem the tide?

Not sure anyone is saying Russel is a cert

Most Scots are saying he may tour, but needs a good few games to have a chance

Russell won't tour. If his nerves are so feeble he wobbles in Paris on a conversion in front of the sticks i can't imagine he'd handle the pressure in NZ

Anyway, its a case of who backs up Sexton who is No 1, and Farrell who is no 3 centre and 10 cover. IMO it will be Sexton, Biggar and Farrell.