6N 2017: England vs Scotland

First topic message reminder :

     
ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

cascough wrote:I quite like the idea of Daly in the back 3 myself. Fullback would be fine. I think his skills are better suited to the back 3 than the midfield. I'm not in a rush to replace Brown though, too valuable IMO.

Im torn with Mike these days.

Ability and skills I think Daly etc are way ahead now.

Its Mikes aggression and physicality that I really like (as do most England fans).

But I do think come the summer Mikes days as England FB are numbered.

I said before that as a runner Daly feels like a more natural fullback than centre at Test level, reasoning being that Daly looks to me like a player who thrives when he gets a bit of space, and while at Club level you can get some space from OC, it's much sparser at Test level, whereas FBs get a bit more. He obviously has a huge boot, will need to work on defensive positioning and claiming high balls, but I definitely see his future at FB for England.

Yeah im moving very much towards that thought Chelsea.

Why isn't he a realistic option for gatland?

Are we all dropping the idea that Watsons long term future was going to be at 15 too?

For me, there isn't anyone out there quite like Brown ATM. You are right GF, its the aggression and physical side that he brings as well as the dependable tackler at the back that so many sides can rely on.

Rugbyjk - He may well be on the Lions shortlist! Would be a useful squad member to have.

I think so, just has to be careful about being another healey: jack of all trades, master of none.

Rugbjk
Im not on his ability. Just his inexperience at international level. But it hasn't stopped people in the past I guess.

Who knows really.

I think he has already proven his quality.

Can someone shed some light on something for me please? Whether you agree with it or not, solomona qualifies for England in august I believe. However, I've heard his name re the lions. How can he qualify being British ( in British & Irish) before qualifying for being English ???

Am I right in thinking that no Six Nations game has been blighted yet by a red card given because of the new tackle law interpretations? If so, then I can't help thinking we're going to get one before the tournament is over.

I was just thinking of how poor England's discipline was against Italy. I suspect if we lose, it'll be because we give away too much possession and field position through poor rucking and mauling technique.

NO NO NO NO to Solomana!

Simple

Not the question I asked.

Rugby Fan wrote:Am I right in thinking that no Six Nations game has been blighted yet by a red card given because of the new tackle law interpretations? If so, then I can't help thinking we're going to get one before the tournament is over.

There hasn't been and there wont be.

Rugbyjk wrote:I think he has already proven his quality.

Can someone shed some light on something for me please? Whether you agree with it or not, solomona qualifies for England in august I believe. However, I've heard his name re the lions. How can he qualify being British ( in British & Irish) before qualifying for being English ???

He's apparently qualified as of this week .. but if World Rugby changes residency to 5 years, unless he's already been capped its possible he may have to wait another 2 years

Good question Rugbyjk. Sale reckon he qualifies for England this month so would qualify for the Lions in time and could be capped technically by them before being capped by England. I have no idea however if a Lions cap ties him to England.

Rugby Fan wrote:Am I right in thinking that no Six Nations game has been blighted yet by a red card given because of the new tackle law interpretations? If so, then I can't help thinking we're going to get one before the tournament is over.

I was just thinking of how poor England's discipline was against Italy.  I suspect if we lose, it'll be because we give away too much possession and field position through poor rucking and mauling technique.

But then our discipline against Wales in the second half was nothing short of amazing. All that huff and puff from Wales lead to one whole penalty kick. Maybe its a 'ref' thing, but I think in the right circumstances we can be very disciplined.

Really? Ok thanks BamBam.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good question Rugbyjk. Sale reckon he qualifies for England this month so would qualify for the Lions in time and could be capped technically by them before being capped by England.  I have no idea however if a Lions cap ties him to England.

Why would it? It's not an England cap. Can't see why it would any more than a Barbarians cap ties you to any country.

Ok 7.5, just I thought to qualify for British you must first be English etc

Surely answers in the title British and Irish? Baabaas can be anyone as it's a club. With your argument we could take picamoles.

Rugbyjk wrote:Surely answers in the title British and Irish? Baabaas can be anyone as it's a club. With your argument we could take picamoles.

Nope. You have to be eligible to one of the home nations. It can't tie you to one nation as it isn't one nation. What if Solomona was eligible for Wales and England. Why would it tie him to England?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good question Rugbyjk. Sale reckon he qualifies for England this month so would qualify for the Lions in time and could be capped technically by them before being capped by England.  I have no idea however if a Lions cap ties him to England.

Is he better than the incumbents? We are not short of quality on the wings.

Will he be a Robinson or a Vainikolo?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/01/sale-wing-denny-solomona-england-new-zealand

Brown like Robshaw has been an ever present in the England team, his consistency may leave us a little exposed at some point. Who has seriously challenged Brown since Foden dropped out of the picture in 2013/2014? I know that

People are saying that Daly started at full back, that is not how I remember things. I swear I remember him making his first appearance for Wasps at fullback (having been almost exclusively wing/ centre) and he was awful. Constantly out of position and poor defensively. Please tell me I am not making this up? I swear I remember it. I haven't followed the league as much recently but how often does Daly actually PLAY at fullback?

Perhaps I am the only one, but I like Daly at outside centre, he and Joseph competing for the starting spot could drive them both on.

I think I would prefer somebody who plays fullback regularly to be England's starting fullback.

He has 9 tries in 8 games for a terrible team. I'd say he has a good chance of being better than the non-Nowell winger.

You are missing my point. It was if he is not qualified to play for England yet, how could he qualify as British? Same if a player in Wales/ Scotland/ Ireland if not qualified for them yet, how could they qualify for lions, a team made up of the 4 countries.

What ever happened to Foden?

Covering recent posts:

Theres no point in bringing Dunbar up if hes unbelievable, noone will believe you.

Brown at fullback ...Im kinda edging toward understanding why people have been on his back for some time. There is an elemnet of him being underappreciated but his pace doesnt stand out against some of the quality options we have now in wide backs. His ability to contest and win high balls isnt as much of a big thing under this version of England, they simply dont kick as much for him to run on to...and opposing teams dont seem to be kicking over the forwards as much as they did two years ago. Hes solid but no longer a stand out player. With Watson back England have lots of options who could be long term fullbacks. So there is pressure, as much tio do with quality elsewhere as him being a weak link....and that weakness being relative to how much england as a whole have improved.

Daly ...100% agree his future should be as a wing fullback rather than a center. In talking natural positions I see his core attributes and I see fullback, especially under the way Eddie Jones has England playing with a focus on fast runners wide and deep. His long kicks get more use there too.

Slade .. is a fly half center. He could inm theory convert to a full back but wheres the drive to do that? 12 is a more problematic position to find cover in (or at least second playmaker type cover) and he doesnt have the lightening pace of the other contenders for fullback.

May Watson Nowell Daly all have played fullback and hold many of thoe core skills. Any of them can cover in game, although Brown seems imortal and clearly age isnt causing fitness issues for him. Long term any could be devleoped into a full time fullback if and when Brown is pensioned off. Now I know Beshocked will argue Jones is making a mistake in not blooding anotehr fullback now but hey ho.
(Caveat of unlikley event that Brown gets benched/dropped from the 24 for this game)


The Salami chap is qualified for England now if Sale register him as EQP which to date they havent (presumably beacuse they dont want to risk him getting called up to the 6 nations squad...its in their financial interests to have EQP players in their squad) It requires the players sign off, although being EQP wouldnt disqualify him form other nations it may be his choice to not do it yet. Hes comepleted the required 3 years.
If he plays for the Lions that doesnt tie him to a Lions nation in future and he could still turn out for the All Blacks in Union...in theory he could play for both sides in the same tour.
It could be scuppered if the world rugby vote in May extends the qualification period to 5 years, althouigh theres likley to be a grace period.

Rugbyjk wrote:You are missing my point. It was if he is not qualified to play for England yet, how could he qualify as British? Same if a player in Wales/ Scotland/ Ireland if not qualified for them yet, how could they qualify for lions, a team made up of the 4 countries.

But he is qualified. That's a separate point to whether a cap would tie him to a particular nation.

TightHEAD wrote:What ever happened to Foden?

Had an injury at the time IIRC, and never really had the form to challenge again. Didn't beat players like he used to. He's looking alright again at the moment but is playing on the wing.

lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials although being eligible for England getting a cap for the lions.

Ok, the fact I know he is now qualified answers the lions question. My initial question related to someone saying it wasn't until august.

My thinking Scott was that would it preclude him from representing the other countries of NZ and Samoa as he represented England by proxy of the Lions. The analogy of Baa Baas lacks as you don't need to qualify for them.

I think he looks very good lost.

Daly played a lot at wing/fb in his first season or 2. I recall looking very good there if I'm honest.

BamBam wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/01/sale-wing-denny-solomona-england-new-zealand

Solomona’s intentions are unclear and in September, when playing for Castleford Tigers, for whom he scored a record 42 tries last year, he was asked if he would consider playing rugby league for England but said: “My heart’s not here, it’s not for England.”

This is why no thank you...case shut!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials although being eligible for England getting a cap for the lions.

Lets talk about Shingler and the Evans brothers instead

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials

George North?

No 7&1/2 wrote:My thinking Scott was that would it preclude him from representing the other countries of NZ and Samoa as he represented England by proxy of the Lions. The analogy of Baa Baas lacks as you don't need to qualify for them.

I think he looks very good lost.

Fair enough, it's not a great analogy. But it wouldn't make sense to be tied to a nation you have no caps for, and the article suggests that "And even if he featured in one of the three Tests against the All Blacks, it is understood he would not be tied to playing for England".

Probs should've asked on the lions thread, albeit it's relating to the captain.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials

George North?

Rules out discussing the Scotland 23 too.

Is this going to be he first ever match thread in history that is going to be full before the match even kicks off?

Gooseberry wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials although being eligible for England getting a cap for the lions.

Lets talk about Shingler and the Evans brothers instead

Max and Thom?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/01/sale-wing-denny-solomona-england-new-zealand

Solomona’s intentions are unclear and in September, when playing for Castleford Tigers, for whom he scored a record 42 tries last year, he was asked if he would consider playing rugby league for England but said: “My heart’s not here, it’s not for England.”

This is why no thank you...case shut!

Yeh, but that was rugby league. There's proper money on the table now.

tigert!ttie wrote:Is this going to be he first ever match thread in history that is going to be full before the match even kicks off?

There have been some important issues to be hammered out like whether Hartley is better at FIFA than George.

What's the limit on a thread size?

Ta Scott. Didn't read til after. Kind of leaves it open to a bit of we think cos no one's tried it before.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/01/sale-wing-denny-solomona-england-new-zealand

Solomona’s intentions are unclear and in September, when playing for Castleford Tigers, for whom he scored a record 42 tries last year, he was asked if he would consider playing rugby league for England but said: “My heart’s not here, it’s not for England.”

This is why no thank you...case shut!

Yeh, but that was rugby league. There's proper money on the table now.

Exactly!

I don't like Hughes in the side...and don't want this guy.
Anyway Amen.

Back to the actual game!

Gooseberry wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials although being eligible for England getting a cap for the lions.

Lets talk about Shingler and the Evans brothers instead

I'll give you Shingler but but the Evans Brothers have a Scottish Grandfather!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials although being eligible for England getting a cap for the lions.

Lets talk about Shingler and the Evans brothers instead

I'll give you Shingler but but the Evans Brothers have a Scottish Grandfather!

You sound Welsh

Scottrf wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:lets avoid derailing the thread again with talk of a backwater fringe player with questionable residency credentials

George North?

Rules out discussing the Scotland 23 too.

You'll be interested in this, but of the Scottish 23 to feature against Wales the only residency player was Tim Visser.