County Championship 2017

First topic message reminder :

Not long to go now, just under a month!

Who are your picks for the title?
Who is going down?
Surprise team?
Most runs?
Most wickets?

Discuss here!

Surely pitch inspectors must look very carefully at the Taunton pitch. Conceivably it could be in Middlesex's interest to collapse horrendously tomorrow morning and get dismissed for under 100?!

guildfordbat wrote:

Afro - looking very bleak for your boys if Middlesex get 250 and 2 batting points. As you say, that would see them safe even if they end up losing this game. Meanwhile, Yorks only need to take one more Essex wicket to get 3 bowling points which will now see them safe.  

Looking a bit better by close. 250 looking a long way off at the moment.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Surely pitch inspectors must look very carefully at the Taunton pitch. Conceivably it could be in Middlesex's interest to collapse horrendously tomorrow morning and get dismissed for under 100?!

Why's that? I'm not following. Middlesex could have declared before they lost Robson to guarantee safety, but now they want to get at least 1 bonus point. And you'd assume Somerset will get another bowling point in that time.

Afro - under current regulations, a team faces a disrepute charge and the possibility of a points deduction if it declares solely for the purpose of denying its opponents the opportunity of taking bowling points; the declaration has to be seen as helping to increase the declaring team's chances of winning or, somehow at least, saving the game.

Thus if Middlesex had declared at 4/2, they would now be in even more trouble than they are tonight!

If Middlesex fold quickly in the morning and end up, say, 60 all out, the pitch inspectors are certain to look closely at the track. That could mean a points deduction for Somerset if the pitch is judged unfit.

On the other hand, if Middlesex battle it out to some extent and get to, say, 180 all out, the pitch inspectors might be more lenient. Admittedly, that's not how it should be - an unfit pitch is an unfit pitch regardless of how many are scored on it. However, I'm just speculating on how human nature often is and how things might turn out. I'm pretty sure that was the Corporal's point.

I'm with you. I'm not suggesting they would have actually declared at 2 down though. Just hypothesising

In Somerset's defence, it was turning straight away this morning and Somerset got 236. It's wasn't a worse pitch after tea, just the bowlers bowled better.

But to be 100% honest, we could be in trouble with the pitch inspectors.

Middlesex have apparently been whinging and the cricket liaison officer (that's pitch inspector in old money) is due to talk to the umpires tonight or tomorrow morning.

Just as a quick note, Somerset's total of 236 is more runs than were scored in any of the four innings on the green top Middlesex prepared for their game vs Lancs last week.

guildfordbat wrote:

If Middlesex fold quickly in the morning and end up, say, 60 all out, the pitch inspectors are certain to look closely at the track. That could mean a points deduction for Somerset if the pitch is judged unfit.

On the other hand, if Middlesex battle it out to some extent and get to, say, 180 all out, the pitch inspectors might be more lenient. Admittedly, that's not how it should be - an unfit pitch is an unfit pitch regardless of how many are scored on it. However, I'm just speculating on how human nature often is and how things might turn out. I'm pretty sure that was the Corporal's point.

That's exactly what I had in mind Guildford. Could envisage a situation tomorrow morning in which Middlesex (trying their hardest) struggled to, say, 70 - 7. Their chances of getting any batting points from there would be negligble, likewise their chances of getting a win or draw out the match would only be slightly better. If at that point Middlesex folded for all out 80 it would hardly weaken their chances compared to situation where they tried their utmost and limped on to all out 110 or 120.

JDizzle wrote:Just as a quick note, Somerset's total of 236 is more runs than were scored in any of the four innings on the green top Middlesex prepared for their game vs Lancs last week.

JD - fair point although the current Taunton track can't be judged on Somerset's first innings total alone.

Reports from Taunton suggest that a number of the Somerset dismissals were down to poor shot selection rather than the pitch, although it does appear that there was turn from the word go.
   Tough call for the pitch inspector(s) as it could mean the difference between staying up or going down. 
   As a Middx fan I'm happy to point out that Middx won the title last year despite playing on flat tracks at Lord's while Somerset were playing on raging Bunsens in their home matches.

guildfordbat wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Just as a quick note, Somerset's total of 236 is more runs than were scored in any of the four innings on the green top Middlesex prepared for their game vs Lancs last week.

JD - fair point although the current Taunton track can't be judged on Somerset's first innings total alone.

JDizzle makes a good point actually - and the pitch inspector doesn't rate pitches based on turn but more on bounce (i.e. If there is uneven bounce on day one it's likely to be rated poor rather than being a green seamer or raging turner)

I quite like that ruling actually

If the pitch is unpredictable, with bounce particularly, then I can see the complaint.

But it wasn't. It was a turner, but a consistent turner.

That to me is not a bad pitch, just Somerset producing a pitch to suit themselves, which is part and parcel of home advantage isn't it?

Can't blame the pitch for either of those two wickets!

I think the pitch inspectors might be in the wrong place if they are looking at the wicket were 236 were scored in the first innings.

Warwickshire 29-5, Leicestershire 17-5

Interesting developments in division two with Northants getting Leicestershire 45-7, and Sussex 325-6 against notts

Northants seriously applying the pressure to Peter Moores's men...

Looks as if Middlesex are headed for the drop...quite the turnaround from last season ! And a touch of revenge for the Cidermen ?

Can't see 250 from here. I get the pitch is tough - but a run out

Some very strange pitches in a few places from the look of the scores...

dummy_half wrote:I think the pitch inspectors might be in the wrong place if they are looking at the wicket were 236 were scored in the first innings.

Warwickshire 29-5, Leicestershire 17-5

Not many where the spinners are opening the bowling though...

jimbohammers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:I think the pitch inspectors might be in the wrong place if they are looking at the wicket were 236 were scored in the first innings.

Warwickshire 29-5, Leicestershire 17-5

Not many where the spinners are opening the bowling though...

This is a bit of English, almost snobbery maybe? We saw spinners open the bowling regularly when we were down in India and Bangladesh so why does spinners opening mean bad pitch but seamers running through teams on a green top not?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Interesting developments in division two with Northants getting Leicestershire 45-7, and Sussex 325-6 against notts

Northants seriously applying the pressure to Peter Moores's men...

Northants now batting having bowled Leics out for 128. If they can get full batting points they could be on full points here...whilst Notts get two bowling points and Sussex are 469-7. Notts now battling for a draw surely? Would that even be enough to go up if Northants get full points? Hopefully the weather stays fair...

JDizzle wrote:

jimbohammers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:I think the pitch inspectors might be in the wrong place if they are looking at the wicket were 236 were scored in the first innings.

Warwickshire 29-5, Leicestershire 17-5

Not many where the spinners are opening the bowling though...

This is a bit of English, almost snobbery maybe? We saw spinners open the bowling regularly when we were down in India and Bangladesh so why does spinners opening mean bad pitch but seamers running through teams on a green top not?

Somerset's 1st innings score was the highest of all the games in division 1......

Olly

If Notts draw and Northants win, it comes down to batting bonus points - Northants would need to gain one more batting point than Notts to be level on points and promoted on having won more games. Potentially, Notts could lose and still be promoted if they get 5 batting points and Northants none but still win

Obviously, if Northants don't win then it's moot.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

jimbohammers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:I think the pitch inspectors might be in the wrong place if they are looking at the wicket were 236 were scored in the first innings.

Warwickshire 29-5, Leicestershire 17-5

Not many where the spinners are opening the bowling though...

This is a bit of English, almost snobbery maybe? We saw spinners open the bowling regularly when we were down in India and Bangladesh so why does spinners opening mean bad pitch but seamers running through teams on a green top not?

Somerset's 1st innings score was the highest of all the games in division 1......

Possibly helped by one dopey declaration.

dummy_half wrote:Olly

If Notts draw and Northants win, it comes down to batting bonus points - Northants would need to gain one more batting point than Notts to be level on points and promoted on having won more games. Potentially, Notts could lose and still be promoted if they get 5 batting points and Northants none but still win

Obviously, if Northants don't win then it's moot.

So basically it hinges on how well Notts do in this first innings dig? Considering Sussex got 565 you'd think they'll be hoping for full points themselves...

Basically if we get 400 and draw it doesn't matter.

My money is elsewhere however

Ed Barnard - 580 runs @ 36 and 43 wickets @ 26. Slyly good season for Worcs, under the radar compared to other names there. Only turns 22 this winter too - keep an eye out.

Right, assuming they don't collapse like the first innings. what kind of lead do Somerset aim for before declaring.

Some rain forecast tomorrow, but Thursday looks good.

Do they set a tempter or bat Middlesex out of the game, given they have to win and would just as well lose as draw the game

Notts need rain - at both Hove and Leicester.

Our batting really is pathetic

jimbohammers wrote:Our batting really is pathetic

What's the scenario Jimbo if Somerset win (which looks pretty certain) - are Hants safe with a draw?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

jimbohammers wrote:Our batting really is pathetic

What's the scenario Jimbo if Somerset win (which looks pretty certain) - are Hants safe with a draw?

Hi folks, hope you don't mind me butting in - yes, Hants will be safe with a draw whatever happens at Taunton. It wouldn't be possible for both Somerset and Middlesex to catch Hants.

With so much concentration on the goings on at Somerset, we've rather taken our eye off just what a precarious position that Hants are now in. Warks 188 all out, Hants 80 odd/6 in reply. If Hants lose (and fail to score 350, that bit seems certain) and Somerset win, Hants go down. Sorry Jimbo H!

Hants 102 - 8. Looking unlikely Hants will get any batting points as Bailey has just this moment fallen. Warks batting is desperately fragile. (Sibley has come within a whisker of carrying his bat twice in a few weeks) But anything could happen in the second innings. A sudden show of resolve by Hants in the final innings could well take them to a victory....

Olly, i think.. if we draw we stay up, regardless of Somerset winning. Then Middlesex would be the team who get relegated. If Somerset win + we lose we're down.

Guildford

Corp, i like you're optimism, i wish i shared it..

So in Div one, neither Hampshire nor Middlesex managed to pick up any batting points, and both look fairly well behind in their matches. Both sides picked up 3 bowling points.

State of play:
Middlesex 143 + 3 points = 146
Hampshire 140 + 3 points = 143
Somerset 127 + 5 points = 132 points

Somerset need to win. Even a tie doesn't get them enough points now. However, they are building a strong position. Two whole days left, so surely just play the game out relatively naturally - either all out or declare with a lead in the region of 450, which should allow plenty of time to bowl Middlesex out again.

If Somerset win, Hampshire need a draw to pass Middlesex - 72 behind on first innings to Warwickshire is not a good place to be, but the saving grace is it is Warwickshire...

Given the state of the matches I'd say Somerset are in the best position to escape, as even with a collapse they would have a decent target to bowl at, while I wouldn't want to be Hampshire coming off the back of last week's collapse v Essex and now in a battle for a draw.

Yes - that's well summarised Dummy.

Jimbo - I'm not optimistic on Hants' behalf - but more of the view that that match is still rather unpredictable. Maybe 65/35 in Warks' favour. (In contrast it seems about 95% certain that Somerset will beat Middlesex)

I suspect the main obstacle for Jimbo and his boys is that Jeetan Patel is belatedly finding some oomph.

I've abandoned hope of saving the game against Somerset : so think only a Hampshire defeat can save Middlesex now.

Mind you that doesn't look too unlikely. Not that Warwickshire inspire any confidence : in fact this looks like a battle between two teams neither of whom know how to win...

Div 2 promotion issues less far advanced, with all games still in bonus point innings:

Wuss - 216 + 4 bonus points = 220
Notts 210 + 2 bowling points = 212
Northants 197 + 2 bowling points = 199

Worcestershire are all but mathematically guaranteed promotion - either one more point themselves or Northants failing to pick up maximum batting points (and at 199-8 that's beyond improbable) gets them over the line. Match positions make it look very likely they'll be up as champions.

2nd is much more up in the air. Northants likely to only get one batting point, so will need to win their match to get to (most likely) 216 points - currently well ahead in their match. Notts would therefore need a draw or maximum batting points to go up, and at 100-5 the batting points option looks improbable, and even the draw rather questionable.

At this moment, I'd say odds on Northants, but not by a big margin.

Day 3. Moving Day.

Play today is likely to be heavily curtailed by rain at Taunton - so Somerset will want to really press on this morning. However, a full morning's play should give them a big enough lead to be confident of securing the win, even if there was little if any play after lunch.

Warks lose their first wicket: 16 -1. Somerset also lose an early wicket - but with the lead on 280 that may not matter too much.

Unsurprisingly, Worcestershire are now mathematically certain of promotion, as Northants can't catch them.

Somerset losing a couple of wickets, but have taken the lead well past 300 with 4 wickets remaining. Still in a good position to win the match, but I'm sure they'd love to add another 50-70.

And in Div 2, Root the younger and Read the Elder have added 130 for Notts 5th wicket. Still miles behind Sussex and getting to the maximum bonus points needed to ensure promotion, but at least digging them out of a big hole.

Equation is simple at least.

Anything other than a Notts loss and Northants win will do.

However that remains highly likely to happen.

Div 1 - Somerset declare 9 down, setting Middlesex 345 to win. Somerset win sees either Middlesex or Hampshire down. Hampshire's position strengthening with Warwickshire losing wickets...

Notts 6th wicket partnership continuing at a good rate

Chris Read 100 on his final game

GSC wrote:Chris Read 100 on his final game

Magnificent stuff!

And now Root the younger scores his first CC century. Partnership with Read now over 200

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

GSC wrote:Chris Read 100 on his final game

Magnificent stuff!

Chris Read has been a magnificent servant for Notts and of the county game. Skill and grit in equal high measures. I've long maintained he should have had more opportunity at international level.

England have mostly looked for batsman who can keep rather than the other way round sadly for Read.

GSC wrote:England have mostly looked for batsman who can keep rather than the other way round sadly for Read.

Read and Foster both suffered for this policy. The balance of the current side, with Stokes, Ali and Woakes as all rounders, would allow selection of the best keeper regardless of batting ability, but unfortunately we haven't generally had as much all rounder strength during the peak of their careers.

Of course Read has been a good to very good batsman at county level, but when given the chance struggled to translate this at Test level.

Vaughan, when captain, didn't rate Read according to a book Vaughan wrote. It wasn't so much his wicketkeeping or batting. Vaughan wanted someone to tell him what was going on with the wicket, the batsmen. Read, for Vaughan, was too uninterested in the tactical side of the game. So they got in G Jones instead.
   As I write, Middx are plunging to defeat and will have to rely on Wrwkshire bowling out Hants if they are to avoid the drop.