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Jones jr

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kingraf
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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 10:20 am

Have any of you guys ever seen a fighter as good as him? I'm not talking about career and longevity.

I was watching old videos this morning and I'm reminded how good he was in his pomp. People couldn't literally touch the guy, never mind beat him.

Imo the best fighter (not career) I have ever seen. Leonard, hagler etc would not beat this guy at 160. If Floyd or Manny were the same weight? Roy would beat them too. Special, special athlete in his time. I wish he retired years ago. If he were in his peak now, 160-175 would be a cake walk for the guy.


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Post by hazharrison Sun 16 Apr 2017, 10:28 am

Might as well start a "peak Mike Tyson" thread while you're on. Haven't done that for a while...

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 10:37 am

Jones Jr was better Than Mike Tyson Haz.

I won't use your boy, so do you think Ward or Kov would stand a chance with the guy?

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Post by Dylan1979 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 12:26 pm

AdamT wrote:Jones Jr was better Than Mike Tyson Haz.

I won't use your boy, so do you think Ward or Kov would stand a chance with the guy?

Ward would school a prime Jones Jr because Ward is smart

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 12:55 pm

Lol nice sarcasm. Would not have a prayer. Jones Jr the best fighter I have ever seen. Some say his competition wasn't great. He made some very good fighters look like bums.

I'm a huge Floyd fan and rate him as high if not higher over all than Roy. That is because Floyd has the longevity and been a top fighter for two decades. Floyd was probably at his best at Superfeather weight. He campaigned at the weight, while Jones Jr was dominating the sport. I doubt many Said Floyd was as good as Jones Jr then.

Floyd only really took over after Jones came back to light heavy. Jones Jr from about 93 to 03, was sensational. He would beat Ward and GGG very easily. Somebody said nobody beats GGG easily, I think it was Truss. Well a prime Jones would and anyone that can't see that? Well they really don't understand boxing.

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Post by hogey Sun 16 Apr 2017, 12:56 pm

Jones Jnr was the best fighter i have seen since Leonard at his peak. At his very best had supreme weapons in every department of the game.
Without a doubt one of the most complete fighters i have seen in my many years following this sport sad how he has tarnished his reputation by carrying on to long when he should have gone out at the top. I definitely put him a little above Whittaker, Manny, Floyd, Holyfield and Chavez who are the other real greats i have seen in recent decades.

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Post by Atila Sun 16 Apr 2017, 1:10 pm

Undoubtedly, a great fighter, but I'm surprised to see that Hogey has called him a complete fighter.

I don't think if you wanted to teach a young fighter the basics, Jones would be the first fighter you would show video tapes of his fights. Yes, his boxing skills were good but fantastic speed and reflexes is what really separated Jones from the pack.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 1:18 pm

Six posts into a Jones thread and peds haven't been mentioned.

Has the Korean posted Jones his gold medal yet ?

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Post by Dylan1979 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 1:24 pm

AdamT wrote:Lol nice sarcasm. Would not have a prayer. Jones Jr the best fighter I have ever seen. Some say his competition wasn't great. He made some very good fighters look like bums.

I'm a huge Floyd fan and rate him as high if not higher over all than Roy. That is because Floyd has the longevity and been a top fighter for two decades.  Floyd was probably at his best at Superfeather weight. He campaigned at the weight, while Jones Jr was dominating the sport. I doubt many Said Floyd was as good as Jones Jr then.

Floyd only really took over after Jones came back to light heavy. Jones Jr from about 93 to 03, was sensational. He would beat Ward and GGG very easily. Somebody said nobody beats GGG easily, I think it was Truss. Well a prime Jones would and anyone that can't see that? Well they really don't understand boxing.

Sarcasm - what's that?

I agree Jones Jr was sensational from about 93 to 03 but despite all of his 'weapons' I just don't see how he defends against Ward's one leg takedown.

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 2:32 pm

Ward would get the same treatment as Toney. Jones too flashy and fast.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 3:38 pm

A great super middleweight but not a top class light heavy chin couldn't take the power of the heavier men

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 3:39 pm

He would toy with Kovalev

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 4:21 pm

His fans seem to have difficulty understanding his chin can't take the power of the heavier men

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 4:29 pm

His chin doesn't get hit by lesser fighters. Herman seriously, watch the mans earlier fights. He is miles above Kovalev and Ward.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 4:35 pm

Great super middleweight Adam

But he's not beating Kovalev I don't care what speed advantage he'd hold he'd be fighting scared against the Russian

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 4:46 pm

You serious? He beat John Ruiz. Granted he is no Ali, but he was a solid Heavyweight.

What the hell do you see in Kovalev?

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:01 pm

Kovalev has proved he's a top class light heavy, Jones never really did Adam

Great super middle just not the same fighter up at light heavy

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:23 pm

I don't agree with you, but fair enough.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:27 pm

You being serious Adam Jones proved himself a great light heavy in your book?

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:28 pm

Yes he did. Nobody could touch him until he came back down? Did you ever see him fight?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:51 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Kovalev has proved he's a top class light heavy, Jones never really did Adam

Great super middle just not the same fighter up at light heavy

With all due respect how has he proved he is a top class light heavy..

Ward is the only top fighter he has fought and he is a super middle.. ..Unless you count 50 year old ex middles.

He maybe top class but his record isn't top class.

Just stop it.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:53 pm

You Jones fanboys eh lol

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:55 pm

Irony..

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 5:58 pm

Hardly Jones fanboy. Ffs watch the evidence of his fights. He was a phenom. As pure an athlete as you can get.

I'm just going to put this out here. No Middleweight in recent history could beat this man. Not Hagler, not Hopkins, not Leonard, not McCalum, not GGG. Not Monzon either.

Not saying his record at 160 is better than Monzon or Hagler. But he would beat both guys in any mythical fight. Best fighter I have ever seen.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 16 Apr 2017, 6:04 pm

Great fighter sure but the complete fighter?

Couldn't fight off the ropes, no infighting skills

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 6:05 pm

How do you know no middle could beat Jr ??.....

You could say however he was more talented...

He'd have to get through Hearns right hand for a start....Hagler and GGG are tough fights...and no one has seen Greb.

The Nunn that beat Tate would be in with a shout too.

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 6:15 pm

GGG does not give Jones Jr tough fight. I watched the 90's and seen Jones whole career. He would beat GGG easy.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 7:34 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Kovalev has proved he's a top class light heavy, Jones never really did Adam

How so, Herman?

Kovalev's highlights so far account for Cleverly, Campillo, Agnew, Hopkins*, Pascal and Chilemba etc., with a contentious (or dubious if it keeps Haz happy) loss to Ward.

Not a bad record at all, but if that's enough to provable make him a 'top class Light-Heavy', then I don't see why Jones' highlight wins at 175 against the likes of McCallum*, Griffin, Hill, Johnson, Gonzalez, Tarver, Harding, Woods etc. don't. In fact, it's clear to me that, so far at least, Kovalev's victims are actually less impressive than Jones'.

Can only assume, then, that the fact that Jones subsequently went on to suffer some heavy losses disqualifies him from that top bracket status which Kovalev still has?
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Post by hazharrison Sun 16 Apr 2017, 7:46 pm

Jones is ahead of Kovalev in the all time light heavyweight stakes. Sadly, the Ward victory he was denied would have trumped any of Roy's wins at 175 lbs.

I think it would have been a great fight between the pair of them as Roy would have engaged more and thrown a hell of a lot more punches than Ward.

All time, Jones would make the top ten all time light heavies. Kovalev needs to clean out this era to be in the running (starting with Ward).

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Post by Dylan1979 Sun 16 Apr 2017, 8:17 pm

AdamT wrote:GGG does not give Jones Jr tough fight. I watched the 90's and seen Jones whole career. He would beat GGG easy.

Is that with the juice or without the juice?

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Post by AdamT Sun 16 Apr 2017, 8:55 pm

Both of them on the juice.

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Post by milkyboy Mon 17 Apr 2017, 1:05 am

Jones more akin to the pre Vietnam ali. Speed, reflexes more than being a complete fighter.  Some weapons though and power too.

V Ward? (168) I guess you look at Toney, hopkins and griffin as your best benchmarks,  he shut out Toney but had to work fairly hard with the other two... Ward would make it awkward but can't hurt him. I like jones in this one.

V kov, (175) I think kov is a naturally bigger man, clearly has the power if he can land, not sure he can get Jones to fight his fight or close him down enough. I like jones in this though wouldn't rule krusher out.

V golovkin (at 160/168) Stylistically I think he's potentially  the toughest fight for Roy. Depends  if Roy's power discourages ggg from seek and destroy mode, if not it might get interesting.

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Post by AdamT Mon 17 Apr 2017, 9:25 am

I think Roy is too fast for GGG. I honestly don't think he would have any problems with a guy that struggles past Jacobs.

Ward would give him the tougher fight, with his inside hit and hold.

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Post by milkyboy Mon 17 Apr 2017, 9:58 am

On the Jacobs showing I entirely see your point Adam, I'm not sure I saw Roy fight a guy that could close the ring down like GGG. That said ggg has Definitely never fought a guy who could avoid having the ring closed on him like Roy. Intriguing clash of styles for me.

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Post by hazharrison Mon 17 Apr 2017, 10:19 am

I don't think Ward matches up well with Roy at all. Jones would win that pretty easily.

He'd also be light years ahead of Golovkin, however, he never fought a puncher of GGG's quality, so there'd be real intrigue throughout (this would be young Roy, of course, rather than the version who peaked at 168).

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Post by AdamT Mon 17 Apr 2017, 10:41 am

Jones was a freak athlete. Great at a time, but a terrible fall from grace. He should of e
Retired after Glen Johnson.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 17 Apr 2017, 11:55 am

Ward would be the trickiest of the three for Jones; Kovalev and Golovkin are just too slow to get near him at this best. It's very difficult to march forward against an opponent who's picking you off with heavy shots at will, after a couple of rounds they would go into their shell at which point Jones plays with them.

There are certain boxers who are simply way too good.

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 17 Apr 2017, 12:05 pm

Thinking about Jones-Golovkin at 160, the automatic go-to position might be to think it's Jones' great speed and athleticism against Golovkin's crunching power and strength. But something to ponder here which milky has touched on but which most, I suspect, wouldn't even consider: is Golovkin actually the puncher in that fight?

The fact that Jones had such a dazzling, unorthodox way of fighting seems to make people forget what a phenomenal puncher he was at 160, as does the short amount of time he spent in the division before outgrowing it. Sure, maybe it was as much down to speed as it was blunt force trauma, but the end result was the same - when he hit guys at Middleweight, they stayed hit.

Have pointed this out before, I know, but what Jones did to Thomas Tate is a good starting point. Tate had gone the full twelve rounds against Julian Jackson not too long before facing Jones. Jackson landed a hell of a lot of big-time leather on Tate but, despite flooring him at one point, never looked like he was about to get him out of there, and in Jackson we're talking about someone who is often held up as THE golden standard of knockout artists. Yet Jones wiped Tate out with one single left hook, which was the only stoppage loss of Tate's career.

Similarly, Glenn Wolfe, while no great shakes overall, was at least a very tough guy who'd never been floored in his career before facing Jones, and had taken Toney the full course a year before. It took Jones just one round to completely overwhelm him and get him out of there. Jones remind a damn good puncher even at Light-Heavy, but if he'd have been able to stay as a Middleweight for longer I reckon we might be putting him up there along with Fitzsimmons and Jackson as the most devastating hitter the division has seen.

Who out of Jones or Golovkin hits harder might be debatable. Which of them was / is harder to hit, however, ain't, and if Golovkin fought a young Jones the way he's recently fought Brook and Jacobs, with too little regard for shipping leather himself, then there's no way he'd be beating Jones, I feel.
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Post by kingraf Mon 17 Apr 2017, 12:22 pm

AdamT wrote:I think Roy is too fast for GGG. I honestly don't think he would have any problems with a guy that struggles past Jacobs.

Ward would give him the tougher fight, with his inside hit and hold.

Imagine a guy who needed a bit of a gift against Doug Jones beating Sonny Liston. Probably absurd... To be fair at the time, at the time, at 7/1 it was a little far-fetched. Also credit for the Jacobs fight apparently proving that GGG struggles against Canelo AND RJJ. The similarities between the three fighters of course makes this a completely slam dunk comparison
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Post by AdamT Mon 17 Apr 2017, 3:14 pm

Ok Raf, what about Brook hitting him at will? Jones Jr is much too fast and good for GGG.

We might as well say Thurman beats Ray Leonard, or pushes him close. Not a chance. There are levels of boxing.

Is Gennady on a good level? Yes, but Jones was on a great level. No 160lb fighter beats Jones at his best Imo. He was a freak middle/super middle.

You all have the evidence of your own eyes. I don't need any historian to try and tell me a Hagler or srl would beat Jones Jr. I really don't think they would.

Some younger guys will not know this, but there were strong whispers going around during the time he beat Ruiz, that Roy could challenge Ray Robinson as the best ever. Easy now In hindsight to rubbish that, but he was marvellous.

Floyd is my favourite boxer and technically probably the best I've seen along with Pernell. Though I have never seen a boxer with the speed, movement, confidence and power of a young Jones.

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Post by milkyboy Mon 17 Apr 2017, 4:02 pm

AdamT wrote:

Some younger guys will not know this, but there were strong whispers going around during the time he beat Ruiz, that Roy could challenge Ray Robinson

Then they found out he was dead.


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Post by AdamT Mon 17 Apr 2017, 4:03 pm

Lol

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Post by hazharrison Mon 17 Apr 2017, 6:07 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Thinking about Jones-Golovkin at 160, the automatic go-to position might be to think it's Jones' great speed and athleticism against Golovkin's crunching power and strength. But something to ponder here which milky has touched on but which most, I suspect, wouldn't even consider: is Golovkin actually the puncher in that fight?

The fact that Jones had such a dazzling, unorthodox way of fighting seems to make people forget what a phenomenal puncher he was at 160, as does the short amount of time he spent in the division before outgrowing it. Sure, maybe it was as much down to speed as it was blunt force trauma, but the end result was the same - when he hit guys at Middleweight, they stayed hit.

Have pointed this out before, I know, but what Jones did to Thomas Tate is a good starting point. Tate had gone the full twelve rounds against Julian Jackson not too long before facing Jones. Jackson landed a hell of a lot of big-time leather on Tate but, despite flooring him at one point, never looked like he was about to get him out of there, and in Jackson we're talking about someone who is often held up as THE golden standard of knockout artists. Yet Jones wiped Tate out with one single left hook, which was the only stoppage loss of Tate's career.

Similarly, Glenn Wolfe, while no great shakes overall, was at least a very tough guy who'd never been floored in his career before facing Jones, and had taken Toney the full course a year before. It took Jones just one round to completely overwhelm him and get him out of there. Jones remind a damn good puncher even at Light-Heavy, but if he'd have been able to stay as a Middleweight for longer I reckon we might be putting him up there along with Fitzsimmons and Jackson as the most devastating hitter the division has seen.

Who out of Jones or Golovkin hits harder might be debatable. Which of them was / is harder to hit, however, ain't, and if Golovkin fought a young Jones the way he's recently fought Brook and Jacobs, with too little regard for shipping leather himself, then there's no way he'd be beating Jones, I feel.

While Roy could crack, I'd certainly have Golovkin above him in the power stakes at 160. While his opposition hasn't been great, Golovkin has shown wrecking ball hitting ability against top ten opponents. With Roy, we're talking only a couple of stoppages at top level (with vet Jorge Castro and the slippery Fermin Chirino taking him 12).

I see this as fight between a guy with superb technique (in Golovkin) and one who's technique was flawed (in Jones). Jones got away with murder thanks to his freaky speed and athleticism: crossing his feet, wide stance, hands down etc. As soon as his speed waned, his technique left him exposed (unlike technicians such as Moore, Hopkins, Duran etc. - who were still able to pull up trees once in a while when miles past their best).

If you look at the good technicians Jones went in with: McCallum, Hopkins, Toney and the less talented Montell Griffin, he wasn't able to blow them away (save for the Griffin rematch) in quite the same way he blew through the likes of Tate, Byrd etc.

Golovkin would have posed Jones problems in that regard (especially with regards to feints - not many fighters feinted Jones - and positioning), however, the Jacobs fight has confused me no end with regards GGG's ability. Whether that fight was a sign he'd started to slip (shots seemed there for him, yet he didn't take them) or whether he lacked enough imagination to be great, I'm not sure.

As it stands, it's a dream fight between a great fighter and a dominant one who's yet to prove he's great. And as Jones proved, perhaps more than any fighter before or since, you can't judge a fighter until he's done.

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Post by hazharrison Mon 17 Apr 2017, 6:27 pm

AdamT wrote:Ok Raf, what about Brook hitting him at will? Jones Jr is much too fast and good for GGG.

We might as well say Thurman beats Ray Leonard, or pushes him close. Not a chance. There are levels of boxing.

Is Gennady on a good level? Yes, but Jones was on a great level. No 160lb fighter beats Jones at his best Imo. He was a freak middle/super middle.

You all have the evidence of your own eyes. I don't need any historian to try and tell me a Hagler or srl would beat Jones Jr. I really don't think they would.

Some younger guys will not know this, but there were strong whispers going around during the time he beat Ruiz, that Roy could challenge Ray Robinson as the best ever. Easy now In hindsight to rubbish that, but he was marvellous.

Floyd is my favourite boxer and technically probably the best I've seen along with Pernell. Though I have never seen a boxer with the speed, movement, confidence and power of a young Jones.

Brook hit him at will because Golovkin had no respect for his power. You saw the difference in his technique when he faced Lemieux - he was barely hit.

You sound like someone who's just watched a Jones highlight vid on YouTube and have assumed he's God. Plenty of middles and light heavies would have given Jones a fight. The problem you have with mythical matches is that great middles like Monzon and Hagler weighed in same day (Jones benefitted from day before weigh ins). And so you're comparing apples with oranges.

If you look at similar sized men: Foster, Spinks, Charles, Moore, Tunney - there are plenty who'd have given him a fight.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 17 Apr 2017, 6:51 pm

hazharrison wrote:

If you look at similar sized men: Foster, Spinks, Charles, Moore, Tunney - there are plenty who'd have given him a fight.  

All of whom fought a fair chunk of their careers at Heavyweight and in the case of Foster and Spinks had to drain themselves to make weight.

Jones was closer to Monzon in natural size than he was the others, you place too much emphasis on weigh ins and completely ignore that weight draining has been going on for years. I imagine you believe Tommy Hearns entered the ring weighing 147lbs as Welterweight?

Charles and Moore somehow drained down to Middleweight whilst the great Ray Robinson started off at Lightweight, if we go back even further Bob Fitzsimmons was either a miracle worker or the weigh ins weren't 100% correct.

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Post by AdamT Mon 17 Apr 2017, 7:01 pm

Jones might be beatable, but in the last 20 or so years, I haven't seen anyone from middle, or Sm That could beat him.

I didn't see all of Haglers fights, but video evidence tells me he wouldn't win.

I don't always agree with Max Kellerman, but he also reckons Jones is the best he's seen live. Though they are mates, so it's possible he could be a tad biased.

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Post by hazharrison Mon 17 Apr 2017, 7:52 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:

If you look at similar sized men: Foster, Spinks, Charles, Moore, Tunney - there are plenty who'd have given him a fight.  

All of whom fought a fair chunk of their careers at Heavyweight and in the case of Foster and Spinks had to drain themselves to make weight.

Jones was closer to Monzon in natural size than he was the others, you place too much emphasis on weigh ins and completely ignore that weight draining has been going on for years. I imagine you believe Tommy Hearns entered the ring weighing 147lbs as Welterweight?

Charles and Moore somehow drained down to Middleweight whilst the great Ray Robinson started off at Lightweight, if we go back even further Bob Fitzsimmons was either a miracle worker or the weigh ins weren't 100% correct.

Jones admitted to weighing something like 180 pounds against Hopkins: roughly what the aforementioned light heavies weighed in-ring after weighing in earlier in the day. Hopkins weighed something like 163 - roughly what the likes of Hagler and Monzon would have weighed in-ring.

You'll be telling me next Monzon weighed 180 in-ring? And Tommy was 168 against Ray?

You can only really compare Roy to middleweights who operated under the same day-before weigh in rules.

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Post by AdamT Mon 17 Apr 2017, 8:55 pm

I don't know if I can make Jones Jr favourite over Michael Spinks. No matter what people think of the verdicts (especially the second fight), he beat Holmes twice and the first man to do so.

Sadly many remember Spinks as the guy Tyson obliterated, me included until I followed the sport a little more closely.

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Post by catchweight Mon 17 Apr 2017, 9:22 pm

Terrific fighter Jones, but too fragile and prone to taking chances to back him without reservation against the great middles and light heavyweights. Specially the tough ones who can punch. His competition was pretty light on genuine quality, but made for some impressive showboating highlight reels. Some of the fights from the 70s and 80s (and going back even further) were brutal matches fought at a relentless pace between some serious fighters. No way I culd see Jones hanging with those guys physically. And trying to dance around them for a full fight would have been tough going, even for someone with Jones ability.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 17 Apr 2017, 10:14 pm

Jones' so called comments during the Simon Brown fight which mysteriously don't exist but are often repeated on other boxing forums, there is no way he outweighed Hopkins 17lbs in that fight, he actually states 170lbs. You'll come up with any excuse to dismiss modern boxers Haz and I find it quite absurd.

Michael Spinks and Bob Foster were both massive Light Heavyweights, bigger than Jones as ever was.

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