Lions 2017 - the decider

by **RDW** Wed 31 May 2017, 9:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 6 R2fRSPlg

After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course... Run

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 6 Lions20131024x768_2947826

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 6 Lions20131024x768_2947826

by Guest Fri 16 Jun 2017, 11:34 am

Congratulations to Smiley Barrett the dad with three sons playing today. When he said he was 'off to breed some All Blacks' after retiring from first class rugby he wasn't joking.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 16 Jun 2017, 3:11 pm

Not too keen on the idea bulk replacements. Creates an unnecessary selection divide between "real Lions" and "fodder Lions".

I can understand Gatland is trying to square the circle of having a small enough squad for everyone to feel involved, along with enough players to keep his first team selection fresh.

However, calling up a late group stand-ins risks devaluing the Lions experience. It seems these call-ups will have little to do with who might deserve to be a Lion: they'll just be who happens to be available in short travelling distance.

There have always been last-minute replacements, like Andy Nicol in 2001, who just made up the numbers when it was impractical to call up anyone from overseas. However, Gatland is formalizing what has, until now, been seen as a quirky part of the Lions experience.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 16 Jun 2017, 3:14 pm

I firmly Believe that if Ford/Russell or Gray/Launchberry are called up, any of those 4 could force their way into contention for the 2nd test.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 16 Jun 2017, 3:17 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:That was a nice wee training run put in by the ABs, Samoa putting up little resistance to the dark wave that swept over them in the end.
There's nothing to be drawn from that game obviously but I reckon it's all the warm up the ABs will need to take the Lions apart.

It was a useful hitout.

by The Great Aukster Fri 16 Jun 2017, 9:05 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:However, calling up a late group stand-ins risks devaluing the Lions experience. It seems these call-ups will have little to do with who might deserve to be a Lion: they'll just be who happens to be available in short travelling distance.

The original Lions were selected on availability rather than ability, so expedient call-ups are one of the few traditions remaining!

by TightHEAD Fri 16 Jun 2017, 10:46 pm

Is Shane out here?

by lostinwales Fri 16 Jun 2017, 10:52 pm

It is understood Welshmen Kristian Dacey, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill and Gareth Davies are among those set to be called up to the Lions squad.

by Gwlad Fri 16 Jun 2017, 10:54 pm

lostinwales wrote:
It is understood Welshmen Kristian Dacey, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill and Gareth Davies are among those set to be called up to the Lions squad.

In the words of the great late Martin Brody

"you're going to need a bigger forum"

by king_carlos Fri 16 Jun 2017, 11:04 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I firmly Believe that if Ford/Russell or Gray/Launchberry are called up, any of those 4 could force their way into contention for the 2nd test.

Agreed RuggerRadge. If nothing else Ford and Russell would offer an obviously needed different tactical option in attack.

Just look at what Corbs managed after being an injury replacement on the last tour.

I've tried to stay away from the usually controversial selection topics for this tour. It's just a breeding ground for petty arguments and trolls when everyone carries bias from having seen more of players from sides they support. This is especially true online, with keyboard warriors rife in numbers, puerile stupidity and spare time to burn.

If fans were asked of things this tour needed to avoid to keep all fans happy then very near the top would have been, "no charity caps to players who happen to be near the squad".

One current international standard player being called up over another I rate higher is frustrating but acceptable given everyone rates players for different reasons and game plans. Players who barely scraped the lowest echelon of international class at their best being called up for Lions tours is a recipe to lose fan interest in a tradition that survives on fan interest.

by **RDW** Sat 17 Jun 2017, 8:04 am

Scotland beat Australia (in the dry) without 8 of their top players, Russell one of the best players on the pitch.

Just gonna leave that there!

by Gwlad Sat 17 Jun 2017, 8:11 am

And inspite of that idiot Wilson who shipped 5 pens personally, and the bloke in the 19 shirt who, instead of just taking it into contact actually tried to break the line giving up a pen on the 80th minute. Russell is looking classy, might push Bigger for a bench spot

by eirebilly Sat 17 Jun 2017, 1:34 pm

Scotland did ship a lot of penalties away today and that will be a concern. The Aussies seemingly underestimated Scotland's defence by not taking relatively easy kicks at goal towards the end of the game.

Tonks, I thought had a very solid game, no shame in being outjumped for the try by Falou, he is brilliant in the air.

Russell, what more can/has to be said about his performances. He has done it everywhere in every condition now and really deserves a lot more credit than he is given by certain pundits.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 17 Jun 2017, 1:50 pm

Russell has been the best 10 in the Southern Hemisphere over the last 2 weeks, apart from Beuden Barrett of course.

by EST Sat 17 Jun 2017, 2:45 pm

I think Finn will take his chance if he gets one. He is playing so well just now, and has such natural confidence that I can see him thriving in the Lions environment.

by EST Sat 17 Jun 2017, 3:15 pm

Also, does anybody know if the WRU financially benefit from the decision to pick Hill etc?

This is not a WUM btw, I don't think Dell should have been picked either. But if so, surely there are some serious conflict of interests here?

by mikey_dragon Sat 17 Jun 2017, 3:45 pm

EST wrote:Also, does anybody know if the WRU financially benefit from the decision to pick Hill etc?

This is not a WUM btw, I don't think Dell should have been picked either. But if so, surely there are some serious conflict of interests here?

I believe so, it was mentioned around here a few weeks back. Location played the most part in selection, that's obvious, but I still can't see why Hill was selected over Gray. Gatland probably should have selected a larger squad from day 1 given we knew the tour schedule a couple years in advance.

by **RDW** Sat 17 Jun 2017, 4:12 pm

To be fair to Dell he has played in pretty much every Scotland game this season - our best season in years - and had acquitted himself well. There's not really any standout options at loosehead really - Cian Healy is the most experienced but isn't playing at the same level he used to.

Hill and Dacey on the other hand...

If they were only going to call up Scottish or Welsh players why not bring in Brown/Ford and Gray too? They're at least quality experienced internationals.

by **BigGee** Sat 17 Jun 2017, 4:43 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:

If they were only going to call up Scottish or Welsh players why not bring in Brown/Ford and Gray too? They're at least quality experienced internationals.

But they are not Welsh!

by No 7&1/2 Sat 17 Jun 2017, 4:57 pm

The point gatland immediately made was that 4 years ago the English players were below par and he blamed that on jet lag which is fair enough. Geech countered and said why not call in Launchbury or whoever last week.

by king_carlos Sat 17 Jun 2017, 5:13 pm

Apparently suggestions that tomorrow mornings Lions press conference could include news of further call-ups. The Argentina-England 2nd Test will finish just before 10pm GMT which would be well timed for a mid-morning press conference in NZ.

Suggestion is that more permanent injury call-ups may be made, with Gatland stating about the guys who have just been called up, "These guys will be with us for a week and they are bench cover. They understand that's the way it is".

As I've said previously the selection of players who are openly told they have no chance of making the Test squads is what irks me more than anything. Players have come in this late before and had a big impact. If additions are made to the squads then it should be with the aim of strengthening the squad, not just making it bigger.

by Cardiff Dave Sat 17 Jun 2017, 5:24 pm

EST wrote:Also, does anybody know if the WRU financially benefit from the decision to pick Hill etc?

This is not a WUM btw, I don't think Dell should have been picked either. But if so, surely there are some serious conflict of interests here?

Interesting thought. Wonder if Cardiff will get something for Kristian Dacey?

by king_carlos Sat 17 Jun 2017, 5:36 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
EST wrote:Also, does anybody know if the WRU financially benefit from the decision to pick Hill etc?

This is not a WUM btw, I don't think Dell should have been picked either. But if so, surely there are some serious conflict of interests here?

Interesting thought. Wonder if Cardiff will get something for Kristian Dacey?

The Lions have to pay each respective union £70,000 for each player they provide as compensation for not being available for their summer tours.

Whether this amount is reduced for players who come in midway through tours I'm not sure.

How that money is then used by the WRU (or any other respective union of course) hasn't been revealed as far as I know. In short I don't think anyone knows if club or regions benefit directly from their players being called-up. Indirectly you'd hope all the clubs, regions and provinces will benefit from that extra income for their union, whether this is the case is again anyone's guess though!

by king_carlos Sat 17 Jun 2017, 7:12 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Hill

Somebody has already had a bit of fun with Cory Hill's Wikipedia page.

"On 16th June 2017 Hill was selected for the British and Irish Lions. Which raised eyebrows."

by **RiscaGame** Sat 17 Jun 2017, 7:17 pm

king_carlos wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Hill

Somebody has already had a bit of fun with Cory Hill's Wikipedia page.

"On 16th June 2017 Hill was selected for the British and Irish Lions. Which raised eyebrows."

Hopefully they will rewrite it. Why the unnecessary separate sentences? It barely makes sense.

by king_carlos Sat 17 Jun 2017, 7:24 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
king_carlos wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Hill

Somebody has already had a bit of fun with Cory Hill's Wikipedia page.

"On 16th June 2017 Hill was selected for the British and Irish Lions. Which raised eyebrows."

Hopefully they will rewrite it. Why the unnecessary separate sentences? It barely makes sense.

Agreed Risca. Looking closer at the page they have also edited his relatives to include Warren Gatland as his father-in-law and Rob Howley as... spouse

by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 17 Jun 2017, 8:33 pm

king_carlos wrote:Apparently suggestions that tomorrow mornings Lions press conference could include news of further call-ups. The Argentina-England 2nd Test will finish just before 10pm GMT which would be well timed for a mid-morning press conference in NZ.

Suggestion is that more permanent injury call-ups may be made, with Gatland stating about the guys who have just been called up, "These guys will be with us for a week and they are bench cover. They understand that's the way it is".

As I've said previously the selection of players who are openly told they have no chance of making the Test squads is what irks me more than anything. Players have come in this late before and had a big impact. If additions are made to the squads then it should be with the aim of strengthening the squad, not just making it bigger.

Like I said is Finn Russell midweek bench fodder or is he actually going to get a fair crack of the whip? The rest as far as I'm concerned are midweek bench fodder...

by international198 Sat 17 Jun 2017, 8:38 pm

The Lions tour schedule may be intense but from a financial point of view it makes sense. Sponsors want the Lions to play a lot of games to get as much exposure as possible and the more games the Lions play, the more money the sponsors will give the Lions. Flying a squad of about 50 players to New Zealand is expensive and think about all the hotels they have to pay for it's a lot of money so they need to play a lot of games to pay for the expensive tour.

by Cyril Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:19 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Apparently suggestions that tomorrow mornings Lions press conference could include news of further call-ups. The Argentina-England 2nd Test will finish just before 10pm GMT which would be well timed for a mid-morning press conference in NZ.

Suggestion is that more permanent injury call-ups may be made, with Gatland stating about the guys who have just been called up, "These guys will be with us for a week and they are bench cover. They understand that's the way it is".

As I've said previously the selection of players who are openly told they have no chance of making the Test squads is what irks me more than anything. Players have come in this late before and had a big impact. If additions are made to the squads then it should be with the aim of strengthening the squad, not just making it bigger.

Like I said is Finn Russell midweek bench fodder or is he actually going to get a fair crack of the whip? The rest as far as I'm concerned are midweek bench fodder...

Really glad that Russell got the call. No offence to him,but I'm delighted that Ford gets to beat Argentina 2-0 and doesn't have to get smashed by angry NZ sides in mid-week games.

by king_carlos Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:27 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Apparently suggestions that tomorrow mornings Lions press conference could include news of further call-ups. The Argentina-England 2nd Test will finish just before 10pm GMT which would be well timed for a mid-morning press conference in NZ.

Suggestion is that more permanent injury call-ups may be made, with Gatland stating about the guys who have just been called up, "These guys will be with us for a week and they are bench cover. They understand that's the way it is".

As I've said previously the selection of players who are openly told they have no chance of making the Test squads is what irks me more than anything. Players have come in this late before and had a big impact. If additions are made to the squads then it should be with the aim of strengthening the squad, not just making it bigger.

Like I said is Finn Russell midweek bench fodder or is he actually going to get a fair crack of the whip? The rest as far as I'm concerned are midweek bench fodder...

As said in another post, players who are only two injuries from a place in the test side are never out of the reckoning with the injury rate on Lions tours. From Finn Russells perspective being in a specialist position will help his chances of staying on tour beyond the week.

If Farrell continues to struggle then Russell will likely stay as injury cover.

It's a situation where Gatland has dug himself a hole with the 'geographically influenced' selections, especially having stated they will only be there for a week. In Russell's case if another 10 is needed for the rest of the tour he is a class replacement, Ford also played excellently in Argentina. Similarly with Gareth Davies if a 9 were injured, again Care is in good form but Davies has had an excellent season with Scarlets. If a second row or hooker were needed for cover during the tests then there are unquestionably better options than Hill or Dacey though. To paraphrase another poster, 'these selections are myopic at best'.

by Cyril Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:41 am

If FatGat gets within 20 points in each Test I'll be happy to award him an award from Her Maj.

by Geen sport voor watjes Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:53 am

Usually commenting on one of the sad boring aftermaths of the Brit empire is something that I am slow to do ( given you are all doing a good job at being provincial in your discussions ) but just had to say.... I really hope players like Pom and Murray aren't picked even though they are clearly streets ahead of the alternatives and in real comparison warbiurton is a child in relation to Pom in terms of leadership. Come on the abs. Five million versus a combined population of 60 plus million people ffs

by Cyril Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:57 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Usually commenting on one of the sad boring aftermaths of the Brit empire is something that I am slow to do ( given you are all doing a good job at being provincial in your discussions ) but just had to say.... I really hope players like Pom and Murray aren't picked even though they are clearly streets ahead of the alternatives and in real comparison warbiurton is a child in relation to Pom in terms of leadership. Come on the abs. Five million versus a combined population of 60 plus million people ffs

It's been a while since Munster won anything. Never mind Sad

by Geen sport voor watjes Sun 18 Jun 2017, 1:05 am

It's been even longer since the lions did especially in New Zealand. Never mind

by Cyril Sun 18 Jun 2017, 1:14 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:It's been even longer since the lions did especially in New Zealand. Never mind

I prpbably care less than you about that Smile

by Geen sport voor watjes Sun 18 Jun 2017, 1:23 am

Apathy rules

by Cyril Sun 18 Jun 2017, 1:28 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Apathy rules

Yep. Lions and Munster are on the wane. Nobody cares.

by Recwatcher16 Sun 18 Jun 2017, 7:03 am

Time to scrap midweek games. The Nzru have cooked the golden goose.
Three warm-up games on successive Saturdays followed by three tests. Take a squad of thirty of the very best players and demand a sensible scheduling, a share of gate receipts and subsequently move the coverage to terrestrial tv.
The Lions concept will not survive in the current format.

by Cardiff Dave Sun 18 Jun 2017, 8:11 am

king_carlos wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
EST wrote:Also, does anybody know if the WRU financially benefit from the decision to pick Hill etc?

This is not a WUM btw, I don't think Dell should have been picked either. But if so, surely there are some serious conflict of interests here?

Interesting thought. Wonder if Cardiff will get something for Kristian Dacey?

The Lions have to pay each respective union £70,000 for each player they provide as compensation for not being available for their summer tours.

Whether this amount is reduced for players who come in midway through tours I'm not sure.

How that money is then used by the WRU (or any other respective union of course) hasn't been revealed as far as I know. In short I don't think anyone knows if club or regions benefit directly from their players being called-up. Indirectly you'd hope all the clubs, regions and provinces will benefit from that extra income for their union, whether this is the case is again anyone's guess though!

I see. I'll therefore assume that Cardiff et al will receive an extra few quid. Must have already got something for their players on the Welsh tour, I imagine.
Anyway, it would seem to me that this Welsh quartet will simply be copying Neil Jenkins ie holding tackle bags, distributing water bottles, carrying buckets of sand, etc. If/when the going gets tough, Gats will shewerly have to call up the superior alternatives, I reckon. Maybe he already has?

by **RDW** Sun 18 Jun 2017, 8:55 am

British & Irish Lions (v Chiefs, Tuesday June 20, FMG Stadium, Waikato, 7.35pm NZST/8.35am BST):
15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Jack Nowell – Exeter Chiefs, England, #828
13. Jared Payne – Ulster, Ireland, #830
12. Robbie Henshaw – Leinster, Ireland, #824
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Dan Biggar – Ospreys, Wales, #821
9. Greig Laidlaw – Gloucester Rugby, Scotland, #810

1. Joe Marler – Harlequins, England, #811
2. Rory Best (c) – Ulster, Ireland, #793
3. Dan Cole – Leicester Tigers, England, #794
4. Iain Henderson – Ulster, Ireland, #808
5. Courtney Lawes – Northampton Saints, England, #826
6. James Haskell – Wasps, England, #823
7. Justin Tipuric – Ospreys, Wales, #786
8. CJ Stander – Munster, Ireland, #831

Replacements:
16. Kristian Dacey – Cardiff Blues, Wales
17. Allan Dell – Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland
18. Tomas Francis – Exeter Chiefs, Wales
19. Cory Hill – Newport Gwent Dragons, Wales
20. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
21. Gareth Davies – Scarlets, Wales
22. Finn Russell – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland
23. Tommy Seymour – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland, #813

Let's hope we have a big lead before the bench comes on!

I'm amazed Lawes is fit after that head knock.

From a Scottish PoV disappointed to see Seymour on the bench and therefore effectively the least favoured wing option - yes he's had the odd defensive lapse (he's not the only one - North/Nowell/Williams!) but he's done far more in attack than some of the other wingers on tour.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 18 Jun 2017, 9:29 am

So fàr, I haven't seen any old pros, or Lions legends who approve of Garland lining up these reserves. Some do think he's between a rock and a hard place but still think he had alternatives.

by yappysnap Sun 18 Jun 2017, 10:10 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
British & Irish Lions (v Chiefs, Tuesday June 20, FMG Stadium, Waikato, 7.35pm NZST/8.35am BST):
15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Jack Nowell – Exeter Chiefs, England, #828
13. Jared Payne – Ulster, Ireland, #830
12. Robbie Henshaw – Leinster, Ireland, #824
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Dan Biggar – Ospreys, Wales, #821
9. Greig Laidlaw – Gloucester Rugby, Scotland, #810

1. Joe Marler – Harlequins, England, #811
2. Rory Best (c) – Ulster, Ireland, #793
3. Dan Cole – Leicester Tigers, England, #794
4. Iain Henderson – Ulster, Ireland, #808
5. Courtney Lawes – Northampton Saints, England, #826
6. James Haskell – Wasps, England, #823
7. Justin Tipuric – Ospreys, Wales, #786
8. CJ Stander – Munster, Ireland, #831

Replacements:
16. Kristian Dacey – Cardiff Blues, Wales
17. Allan Dell – Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland
18. Tomas Francis – Exeter Chiefs, Wales
19. Cory Hill – Newport Gwent Dragons, Wales
20. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
21. Gareth Davies – Scarlets, Wales
22. Finn Russell – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland
23. Tommy Seymour – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland, #813

Let's hope we have a big lead before the bench comes on!

I'm amazed Lawes is fit after that head knock.

From a Scottish PoV disappointed to see Seymour on the bench and therefore effectively the least favoured wing option - yes he's had the odd defensive lapse (he's not the only one - North/Nowell/Williams!) but he's done far more in attack than some of the other wingers on tour.

Hhmmm is Lawes fit? I think Gatland has proved in the past with guys like Youngs and Manu that a playersfitness and welfare isn't his highest priority.

Seymour is pretty unlucky. When you look at how poor Nowell and Williams have been he should be on a par with them.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 18 Jun 2017, 11:04 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
British & Irish Lions (v Chiefs, Tuesday June 20, FMG Stadium, Waikato, 7.35pm NZST/8.35am BST):
15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Jack Nowell – Exeter Chiefs, England, #828
13. Jared Payne – Ulster, Ireland, #830
12. Robbie Henshaw – Leinster, Ireland, #824
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Dan Biggar – Ospreys, Wales, #821
9. Greig Laidlaw – Gloucester Rugby, Scotland, #810

1. Joe Marler – Harlequins, England, #811
2. Rory Best (c) – Ulster, Ireland, #793
3. Dan Cole – Leicester Tigers, England, #794
4. Iain Henderson – Ulster, Ireland, #808
5. Courtney Lawes – Northampton Saints, England, #826
6. James Haskell – Wasps, England, #823
7. Justin Tipuric – Ospreys, Wales, #786
8. CJ Stander – Munster, Ireland, #831

Replacements:
16. Kristian Dacey – Cardiff Blues, Wales
17. Allan Dell – Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland
18. Tomas Francis – Exeter Chiefs, Wales
19. Cory Hill – Newport Gwent Dragons, Wales
20. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
21. Gareth Davies – Scarlets, Wales
22. Finn Russell – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland
23. Tommy Seymour – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland, #813

Let's hope we have a big lead before the bench comes on!

I'm amazed Lawes is fit after that head knock.

From a Scottish PoV disappointed to see Seymour on the bench and therefore effectively the least favoured wing option - yes he's had the odd defensive lapse (he's not the only one - North/Nowell/Williams!) but he's done far more in attack than some of the other wingers on tour.

AWJ is also on the bench (Is it him or Hill covering back row?), and I am sure he is not the least favour look option.

btw is that the weakest Lions bench ever?

by EST Sun 18 Jun 2017, 11:18 am

LondonTiger wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
British & Irish Lions (v Chiefs, Tuesday June 20, FMG Stadium, Waikato, 7.35pm NZST/8.35am BST):
15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Jack Nowell – Exeter Chiefs, England, #828
13. Jared Payne – Ulster, Ireland, #830
12. Robbie Henshaw – Leinster, Ireland, #824
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Dan Biggar – Ospreys, Wales, #821
9. Greig Laidlaw – Gloucester Rugby, Scotland, #810

1. Joe Marler – Harlequins, England, #811
2. Rory Best (c) – Ulster, Ireland, #793
3. Dan Cole – Leicester Tigers, England, #794
4. Iain Henderson – Ulster, Ireland, #808
5. Courtney Lawes – Northampton Saints, England, #826
6. James Haskell – Wasps, England, #823
7. Justin Tipuric – Ospreys, Wales, #786
8. CJ Stander – Munster, Ireland, #831

Replacements:
16. Kristian Dacey – Cardiff Blues, Wales
17. Allan Dell – Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland
18. Tomas Francis – Exeter Chiefs, Wales
19. Cory Hill – Newport Gwent Dragons, Wales
20. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
21. Gareth Davies – Scarlets, Wales
22. Finn Russell – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland
23. Tommy Seymour – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland, #813

Let's hope we have a big lead before the bench comes on!

I'm amazed Lawes is fit after that head knock.

From a Scottish PoV disappointed to see Seymour on the bench and therefore effectively the least favoured wing option - yes he's had the odd defensive lapse (he's not the only one - North/Nowell/Williams!) but he's done far more in attack than some of the other wingers on tour.

AWJ is also on the bench (Is it him or Hill covering back row?), and I am sure he is not the least favour look option.

btw is that the weakest Lions bench ever?

Certainly the weakest front row replacements, especially when you consider that they could easily have been Healy, Cronin, Nel (or any other of about 5/6 options) if a bit of foresight and planning had been employed.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Mon 19 Jun 2017, 2:58 pm

Greig Laidlaw not seeing any issue in the extra players that have been called up, then again he always would get an A* in toeing the company line. "BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield". He doesn't seem to address that the controversy is more about who has been called up and from where rather than just hat extra numbers have been called up though.

Wee Greig wrote:They are all Test match players. Warren’s made it no secret this was his plan all along. It’s something he did on the Australia tour in 2013. He thought it would be successful then, and it did indeed work, and now he’s gone down the same track. So ultimately it’s to look after the Test squad, which is so important now at this stage of the series. It’s about looking after everyone to make sure we get the best performance in the Test matches when they come around.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/greig-laidlaw-supports-gatland-s-addition-of-six-new-lions-1-4479323

by **George Carlin** Tue 20 Jun 2017, 7:19 am

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Greig Laidlaw not seeing any issue in the extra players that have been called up, then again he always would get an A* in toeing the company line. "BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield". He doesn't seem to address that the controversy is more about who has been called up and from where rather than just hat extra numbers have been called up though.

Wee Greig wrote:They are all Test match players. Warren’s made it no secret this was his plan all along. It’s something he did on the Australia tour in 2013. He thought it would be successful then, and it did indeed work, and now he’s gone down the same track. So ultimately it’s to look after the Test squad, which is so important now at this stage of the series. It’s about looking after everyone to make sure we get the best performance in the Test matches when they come around.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/greig-laidlaw-supports-gatland-s-addition-of-six-new-lions-1-4479323

Teacher's pet

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:57 am

George Carlin wrote:
TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Greig Laidlaw not seeing any issue in the extra players that have been called up, then again he always would get an A* in toeing the company line. "BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield". He doesn't seem to address that the controversy is more about who has been called up and from where rather than just hat extra numbers have been called up though.

Wee Greig wrote:They are all Test match players. Warren’s made it no secret this was his plan all along. It’s something he did on the Australia tour in 2013. He thought it would be successful then, and it did indeed work, and now he’s gone down the same track. So ultimately it’s to look after the Test squad, which is so important now at this stage of the series. It’s about looking after everyone to make sure we get the best performance in the Test matches when they come around.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/greig-laidlaw-supports-gatland-s-addition-of-six-new-lions-1-4479323
Teacher's pet

What he said...

by wayne Tue 20 Jun 2017, 9:40 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Greig Laidlaw not seeing any issue in the extra players that have been called up, then again he always would get an A* in toeing the company line. "BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield". He doesn't seem to address that the controversy is more about who has been called up and from where rather than just hat extra numbers have been called up though.

Wee Greig wrote:They are all Test match players. Warren’s made it no secret this was his plan all along. It’s something he did on the Australia tour in 2013. He thought it would be successful then, and it did indeed work, and now he’s gone down the same track. So ultimately it’s to look after the Test squad, which is so important now at this stage of the series. It’s about looking after everyone to make sure we get the best performance in the Test matches when they come around.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/greig-laidlaw-supports-gatland-s-addition-of-six-new-lions-1-4479323
Teacher's pet

What he said...

Basically what James Haskell said as well, time to leave this alone now

by Cyril Tue 20 Jun 2017, 10:12 am

wayne wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Greig Laidlaw not seeing any issue in the extra players that have been called up, then again he always would get an A* in toeing the company line. "BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield, BT Murrayfield". He doesn't seem to address that the controversy is more about who has been called up and from where rather than just hat extra numbers have been called up though.

Wee Greig wrote:They are all Test match players. Warren’s made it no secret this was his plan all along. It’s something he did on the Australia tour in 2013. He thought it would be successful then, and it did indeed work, and now he’s gone down the same track. So ultimately it’s to look after the Test squad, which is so important now at this stage of the series. It’s about looking after everyone to make sure we get the best performance in the Test matches when they come around.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/greig-laidlaw-supports-gatland-s-addition-of-six-new-lions-1-4479323
Teacher's pet

What he said...

Basically what James Haskell said as well, time to leave this alone now

It'll all come out in the autobiographies anyway. Players on the tour aren't going to endanger any chances they might have even if they're looking at the guys who have arrived and are thinking either 'who?' or 'you're nowhere near good enough to wear the jersey'. Some very interesting reads in the future.

by **RDW** Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:33 pm

With all the national bickering going on this is a fantastic reminder of how good the Lions concept can be

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40335537

by Guest Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:56 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:With all the national bickering going on this is a fantastic reminder of how good the Lions concept can be

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40335537

It was a great tour, but like a lot of things from a long time ago (20 years!) we often look at them all misty eyed and remember the highs and gloss over or forget the lows. Selective memory, I suppose. I remember reading an article recently that tried to remind readers that actually the rugby played by us was not great on the '97 tour. There was a lot of 'bish bosh' rugby, a lack of creativity in the backs and a lot of points scored with the boot. Sound familiar?! The tour itself seemed to be run well though, but then it was the first year of professionalism so really it was still in the amateur era with players who had only know the amateur rugby world. Nowadays players have never known amateur sport. A large number have increasingly never worked, going from school to academies and into pro sport. Perhaps it's not fair to compare the tours of yesterday with those of the last few years?

A good read though, RDW. thumbsup

Edit: apologies RDW. I know the article is about the Living with the Lions DVD concept, but I've focused on the Lions Tour concept!

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