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Cotto and the last hurrah?!?

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Cotto and the last hurrah?!? Empty Cotto and the last hurrah?!?

Post by TheSquaredCircle on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 10:53 am

Gone under the radar I think. Fighting kamegai at the weekend. Would be a great end to a glittering career for cotto should he win the vacant light middle strap. Maybe curtains either way? Reckon eddie would throw money at cotto to set up a cotto brook showdown at bramall Lane should he won the strap. HOF either way.

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Post by LionsV2 on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 12:02 pm

In an ideal world he wouldn't make the HOF, despite being a four weight world champion he was never the recognised top dog in any division and benefitted more from the proliferation of titles than most. Fighting Kamegai for a vacant strap is meaningless.

He was a once very good boxer but aside from beating Mosley nothing is screaming out greatness to me, he's got a solid resume.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 12:26 pm

Would be competitive with anyone any era in and around his weight. Longevity showed he could come back from crushing defeat. Minor legend nailed on hof

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Post by TheSquaredCircle on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 12:32 pm

Circa 03-09 he had Bonafide wins against good champions. Longevity, durability and consistency prove his HOF'ness imo. Shame that the margarito loss took a little away from him and maybe the pacqiou battering but I think a win this weekend would be a great way to call Time. Perhaps the strap gain could be perceived as Meaningless as you say given the tenure he's had at light middle (I.e beating a shot Serg), but overall an acceptable prize given his contribution to the sport.

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Post by LionsV2 on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 12:38 pm

I agree he had numerous wins against good champions which is why I see him as very good rather than great, no shame in that and the bar has to be set high otherwise it's all a bit watered down.

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Post by 88Chris05 on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 4:43 pm

I remember Kamegai’s brilliant fight against Guerrero in 2014 – it was one of the fights of the year. Thought he might kick on and make a bit more of a name for himself after that, but it’s never really happened for him. He’s basically lost to every ‘name’ he’s fought. He’s got a good engine, he’s brave, he’ll stand in close and throw punches in bunches with bad intentions…But he’s flat-footed and very one-dimensional. If Cotto is even 70% of the fighter who ran Alvarez close (maybe even beat him for some people’s money) back in 2015 then he’ll have a fairly straightforward win to sign off with here, if indeed he does pack it in afterwards.

As to the wider question of where Cotto belongs in the grand scheme of things. Well, I guess I should preface this by saying that he’s a fighter who I’ve never particularly been a fan of, and I have been accused of being a bit harsh on him in the past – but to me, Cotto isn’t a great fighter in any sense of the word, much less a minor legend as he’s been described as above. He was generally accomplished enough to beat the good fighters, but not good enough to beat the great ones. Good enough to pick up titles in many a division, but never great enough to really stamp his authority on a weight class absolutely. The very definition of an all-time very good without being great, in my book.

I remember him desperately back-peddling and almost blowing the fight against Mosley in the late rounds, where he seemed to be running out of gas, confidence and ideas with every passing second once Shane was finally able to pressure him. On that basis, I picked him to lose to Margarito a few months later as he did, albeit that one comes with a bit of an asterisk now. While he always seemed to be an intelligent man on the whole, in the ring I always thought he was a bit dull in the skull as he kept making the same mistakes fight after fight. In particular, his complete ineptitude in defending himself from uppercuts always stood out, particularly as he fought in such a way which made that shot inevitable (in front of his opponent with his hands up on either side of his head, but with a gap so big you could drive a bus between them).

As per the Mosley and Margarito fights, I think Cotto was a bit of an on-top fighter who lost heart once the other guy started dictating things. That’s not to question his bottle, more his self-belief. His corner really should have pulled him out against Pacquiao after eight rounds as from that point on he really stopped fighting like a man who believed he could win and was just content to stay out of harm’s way whatever the cost.

No shame in losing to Pacquiao, of course, particularly as the Manny who destroyed Cotto was quite simply the best version of himself that I’ve ever seen, but it just highlights the difference between good and great, as did his loss to Mayweather. To be fair, Cotto produced a much smarter kind of performance in that one and I was forced to eat some humble pie in that respect - he gave Mayweather a good argument. But once again, just not quite good enough. Did well to finally bag a ‘lineal’ belt at 160 after the Trout setback, but Martinez was hardly at the peak of his powers, and after an admittedly impressive showing against Geale he lost the title to Alvarez in his first defence of real significance.

By the feeble Canastota standards, he’s a sure thing for the Hall of Fame, I’d imagine, but long gone are the days when any fan really took the IBHOF seriously. Cotto’s career is nothing to sniff at – it’s bloody good. But certainly not great or legendary.
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Post by Herman Jaeger on Thu 24 Aug 2017, 5:44 pm

I'm not really sure what minor legend means myself just a phrase you used to see in the Ring Magazine in the late 80's when that publication was still good

Maybe it could mean hof but not all time outside the top 50 to 80 or 90 of all time you could call Froch, Benn, Eubank even Calzaghe minor legends if you wanted couldn't you

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Post by hogey on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 2:28 pm

I have always thought we were robbed of seeing the best of Cotto due to the shocking beating he took from Margaritos cheating hands. He was never the same fighter again after that night all those involved that night should have been banned for life.

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Post by LionsV2 on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 2:30 pm

hogey wrote:I have always thought we were robbed of seeing the best of Cotto due to the shocking beating he took from Margaritos cheating hands. He was never the same fighter again after that night all those involved that night should have been banned for life.


Not wanting to stand up for Margarito but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest he had plaster in his gloves that night, it's become an excuse for Cotto running out of steam and not having the power to deter him from coming forward.

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Post by hogey on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 3:28 pm

Too be honest you just have to watch the fight to see how the damage inflicted from Margarito's punches seemed to increased fight as the fight when on just as you would expect as the plaster hardened. The fact he was caught red handed for it in the Mosley fight and banned not long after is enough for me to think he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

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Post by LionsV2 on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 3:53 pm

Nothing to do with Cotto having no defence or stamina then?

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Post by hogey on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 4:25 pm

Well he certainly seemed to have Margarito's number for the first few rounds then strangely the punches seemed to be having an unnaturally brutal effect on him and he was broken to pieces bit by bit. If you watch that fight again in the knowledge that Margarito was caught blatantly cheating in his very next fight with a slow hardening plaster in his gloves it doesn't really take Inspector Morse to join the dots. No one really gives Justin Gatlin the benefit of the doubt and in truth he only risked his own health to win, the stunt Margarito and his team pulled in trying to cheat could easily have killed someone so as i say in my opinion he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

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Post by hogey on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 4:30 pm

And Cotto didnt seem to have a problem with his stamina or defence against the technically superior and harder hitting Mosley about 6 months earlier.

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Post by 88Chris05 on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 5:01 pm

I've gone back and forth in my head over the issue of whether or not Margarito was 'loaded' in the first Cotto fight. We're all disgusted with what Margarito got caught doing (or at least trying to do) against Mosley, and it's easy (and tempting!) to automatically assume his guilt in previous fights. But there's a lot of grey area and guesswork going on.

The case to say that Margarito was using illegal wraps for the first Cotto fight is pretty simple, I guess. Namely, if he was willing to use them against Mosley, why wouldn't he have been willing to use them against a guy who had beaten Sugar Shane himself? After all, in addition to beating Mosley, Cotto was also a lot higher ranked pound for pound at the time, and was seen as a more difficult assignment (remember, Margarito was the betting favourite before facing a past-his-best Mosley, whereas he'd been the underdog against Cotto).

Moreover, Margarito was known for having pretty good (though never exceptional) punching power, which he displayed against Cotto but which disappeared as soon as he'd been rumbled for his wraps. Traditionally, even in a fading fighter, the power in the last thing to diminish, but with Margarito it was seemingly the first thing. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

But I am uncomfortable with some of the so-called evidence which is used, as well. Hogey mentions watching the fight again with knowledge of what subsequently happened, and alludes to this heavily suggesting that Margarito was fighting dirty that night. But that's kind of my point - if you go looking for an angle, eventually you'll manufacture one.

There's nothing particularly unusual about that fight in and of itself, and nothing which really proves or strongly suggests that Toni must have been plastered up for it. Cotto spent the last six rounds blocking shots with his face. There's no real secret to it - if you have a leaky defence and keep taking big power punchers from a guy who carries a decent dig, your face is going to mark up and you're going to start faltering. Cotto's face was similarly marked up after Pacquiao had got hold of him - does that suggest that Pacquiao was using illegal wraps, too?

I'd also disagree slightly with Hogey's assertion that this was out of the blue for Cotto. As I mentioned above, he struggled badly in the late rounds of the Mosley fight, to the point where he was in danger of throwing it away as Mosley really started pressuring and landing shots on him. He was in reverse constantly and unable to contain Mosley when the gap was closed. Stands to reason that a heavy-handed pressure fighter with an iron chin would always have a chance of eventually breaking him down.

Lest we forget, even in the rematch Cotto was wary of standing in close with Margarito, and kept it at distance as best he could. Suggests to me that he was always a little wary of Margarito's power and come-forward, rough tactics.

But there's one more crucial aspect - Margarito's illegal wraps were discovered pre-fight when Brother Naz was inspecting the wrapping process, which is the norm for any world title fight. Cotto's team would likewise have observed Margarito's hands being wrapped before he fought Miguel - yet nothing unusual or suspicious was raised by Cotto's team. Of course, it could just be that Margarito's hand wrappers were very talented in concealing what they were doing...But nevertheless, if Mosley's team noticed, why didn't Cotto's?

Personally, my gut feeling is that Margarito was probably using wraps of some kind for Cotto. But I can't say it with any real conviction, and I most definitely can't effectively remove the loss from Cotto's record as many do. There are other fights in Cotto's career which suggest that, just maybe, Margarito simply had his number at the time.
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Post by TheSquaredCircle on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 5:44 pm

Following hydration of the powder, apparently the plaster used for the Mosley fight developed yellow staining making it prominent enough for someone to pick up. Perhaps that staining did not occur for cotto's fight?
I agree that if you watch the cotto Marg fight with the pretext of knowing about the plastered gloves then you can manufacture an angle to notion that foul play could have occured. Similarly if you have not really been the greatest of cotto fans, it is possible ones doubts could be projected harder than that of an unbiased opinion.


Last edited by TheSquaredCircle on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LionsV2 on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 5:45 pm

I may need to revisit Cotto against Mosley but I distinctly remember him falling apart somewhat in the final rounds.

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 6:37 pm

I remember the fight being close. I don't remember much.

I wouldn't mind re watching the Judah fight. Remember it being a good scrap.

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Post by TheSquaredCircle on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 10:31 pm

Apparently cotto won.

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