Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

First topic message reminder :

SCOTLAND


VS

NEW ZEALAND


Round 31

Brief History

Scotland 0 wins 2 Draws
New Zealand 28 wins 2 draws

Last time Scotland played NZ in Scotland was the 15th of November 2014 (Score: 16 - 24 to NZ)

Last time Scotland played NZ in NZ was the 1st of July 2000 (Score: 48 - 14 to NZ)

On the 18th of January 1964, Scotland played NZ at Murrayfield resulting in an unusual scoreline of 0 - 0

Teams

Scotland


All Kittens

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/98933295/all-blacks-delay-team-naming-pondering-final-selections-for-scotland-test

Someone on another Forum was quite succinct;

same team as last week bar:

Du Preez in for Wilson
Fagerson in for Nel
Berghan on bench
Hamilton on bench
Mcguigan for Harris on bench
oh and gilchrist on bench

Ragnar The Pretty starting doesn't worry me.
Berghan on the bench doesn't worry me.
Hamilton on the bench, assuming Batman is injured, doesn't worry me too much.
Barry on the bench for Harris doesn't bother me one way or the other.
grant Gichrist coming on for the last quarter to inject extra pace, dynamism and energy into a tiring pack....that bothers the bejayzus out of me.

Well, well, well. Injuries look to have given us a bit of balance in the back row and that feels like a heftier bench, with Berghan, Gilchrist and Hamilton in there. I hope Seymour's actually fit. Also hoping for huge games from CDP and Fagerson.

Does Hamilton have to come on to become tied? Or is that it now?

nickj wrote:Does Hamilton have to come on to become tied? Or is that it now?

Needs to play to be capped, but that will happen unless he falls down the stairs of the coach and gives himself an injury.

I like this team better than least weeks. Just that bit more grunt about it, which will be needed.

A real chance for CDP to put down a marker for the Scotland No.8 shirt. We all had him lined up for it a few years ago, better late than never.

Good to know. Any idea when the AB's name their team?

Got to agree with BigGee here, the team looks stronger this week than last.

But to be fair a lot of us don’t rate Swinson and Wilson, so with them out it’s going to be better.

EWT Spoons wrote:Got to agree with BigGee here, the team looks stronger this week than last.

But to be fair a lot of us don’t rate Swinson and Wilson, so with them out it’s going to be better.

I would not say I don't rate Swinson or Wilson both are outstanding club players but they have their limitations at this level.

Wilson certainly is not an international No.8, if you are comparing him to players other countries use. He is much better as a BS or as a utility sub. Swinson as well, just lacks the grunt of the very best SRs.

That is not to say they do not deserve their caps and they have often been amongst the best players on the pitch for Scotland when they do play. They are far better players than many others who have played for Scotland in recent years. These days though, we are setting our sights and our standards that little bit higher. We cannot afford to get bullied by the best international packs if we are to play the game we are capable of.

BigGee wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:Got to agree with BigGee here, the team looks stronger this week than last.

But to be fair a lot of us don’t rate Swinson and Wilson, so with them out it’s going to be better.

I would not say I don't rate Swinson or Wilson both are outstanding club players but they have their limitations at this level.

Wilson certainly is not an international No.8, if you are comparing him to players other countries use. He is much better as a BS or as a utility sub. Swinson as well, just lacks the grunt of the very best SRs.

That is not to say they do not deserve their caps and they have often been amongst the best players on the pitch for Scotland when they do play. They are far better players than many others who have played for Scotland in recent years. These days though, we are setting our sights and our standards that little bit higher. We cannot afford to get bullied by the best international packs if we are to play the game we are capable of.

Aye I wasn't lumping you in with my not rating Wilson & Swinson chat, just an observation that a lot of people don't.

9 players in the Scottish starting XV have 13 caps or less

Stuart Hogg has the most caps after Barclay

4 players on the bench with 1 cap or zero!

BBC interview with Toonie gives a bit of insight into CDP and why his form dropped off so badly over the past two seasons. It seems it was largely down to his ankle injury and it is only now that he is able to train on it pain free. It nearly finished his career..

Hopefully he is getting back to his old self now and we still have the best of him to come at this level.

McGuigan is in the team as cover for Seymour, who is clearly still a little bit of a doubt to last the whole match. That is why they have picked an out and out winger as opposed to a centre who can play wing (Harris). Hopefully Harris will get another chance, maybe next week. Anyway Mcguigan has been right on form and deserves his chance.

Good to hear it wasn't (entirely) down to all the boozing!

He was out for a big chunk of the season with an ankle injury last year or the year before - sounds like this has been going on a long time.

Piece of p1ss....


1. Kane Hames (7)
2. Codie Taylor (26)
3. Nepo Laulala (11)
4. Luke Romano (30)
5. Samuel Whitelock (94)
6. Vaea Fifita (4)
7. Sam Cane (51)
8. Kieran Read - captain (108)
9. Aaron Smith (69)
10. Beauden Barrett (60)
11. Rieko Ioane (11)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (44)
13. Ryan Crotty (33)
14. Waisake Naholo (16)
15. Damian McKenzie (10)

16. Nathan Harris (9)
17. Wyatt Crockett (69)
18. Ofa Tu'ungafasi (12)
19. Liam Squire (13)
20. Matt Todd (11)
21. TJ Perenara (40)
22. Lima Sopoaga (14)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (20)

The matchday 23 features just two changes from the team which beat France 39-18 in Paris last weekend: Codie Taylor comes in at hooker for the injured Dane Coles, with Nathan Harris on the bench, and Liam Squire comes onto the bench in the 19 jersey.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Piece of p1ss....


1. Kane Hames (7)
2. Codie Taylor (26)
3. Nepo Laulala (11)
4. Luke Romano (30)
5. Samuel Whitelock (94)
6. Vaea Fifita (4)
7. Sam Cane (51)
8. Kieran Read - captain (108)
9. Aaron Smith (69)
10. Beauden Barrett (60)
11. Rieko Ioane (11)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (44)
13. Ryan Crotty (33)
14. Waisake Naholo (16)
15. Damian McKenzie (10)

16. Nathan Harris (9)
17. Wyatt Crockett (69)
18. Ofa Tu'ungafasi (12)
19. Liam Squire (13)
20. Matt Todd (11)
21. TJ Perenara (40)
22. Lima Sopoaga (14)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (20)

The matchday 23 features just two changes from the team which beat France 39-18 in Paris last weekend: Codie Taylor comes in at hooker for the injured Dane Coles, with Nathan Harris on the bench, and Liam Squire comes onto the bench in the 19 jersey.

2 changes!! Now if we don't win by 40 I'll be sorely disappointed.

I think I'll be starting on the hard liquor before kickoff so that when I go cross-eyed the score on the screen will be reversed by half time.

Ohhh. Dear. God.

Saturday could be a long day, for the Kiwis... am I right chaps!?!??
*Laughs hysterically*
*cries*

Looks weak.

I think it is fair to say this would be the greatest achievement in the history of Scottish rugby if we won this one

- inexperienced team
- injuries to key players
- near full strength ABs
- it's the ABs

If we can keep it within two scores it will be a respectable result!

GLove39 wrote:Ohhh. Dear. God.

Saturday could be a long day, for the Kiwis... am I right chaps!?!??
*Laughs hysterically*
*cries*

So you've decided to grace us with your presence then??

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think it is fair to say this would be the greatest achievement in the history of Scottish rugby if we won this one

- inexperienced team
- injuries to key players
- near full strength ABs
- it's the ABs

If we can keep it within two scores it will be a respectable result!

Oh stop it, RDW! Winning is the only reason to go onto a field, even if you end up losing. To hell with respectable results. Head down, fury and drive for 89 minutes!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Ohhh. Dear. God.

Saturday could be a long day, for the Kiwis... am I right chaps!?!??
*Laughs hysterically*
*cries*

So you've decided to grace us with your presence then??

Ahahaha, it's moments like these (impending doom) that draw me back

SecretFly wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think it is fair to say this would be the greatest achievement in the history of Scottish rugby if we won this one

- inexperienced team
- injuries to key players
- near full strength ABs
- it's the ABs

If we can keep it within two scores it will be a respectable result!

Oh stop it, RDW!  Winning is the only reason to go onto a field, even if you end up losing.  To hell with respectable results.  Head down, fury and drive for 89 minutes!

I'm not saying that's how the players should approach the game, but I think if we can keep it within 14 then it is a respectable result. There is a fair chance it could be at least 30-40 points!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good to hear it wasn't (entirely) down to all the boozing!

He was out for a big chunk of the season with an ankle injury last year or the year before - sounds like this has been going on a long time.

Maybe he needed the booze to dull the pain in his ankle!

I think Toonie has made the best of it with the squad. The ABs look pretty terrifying and we'll need to be careful not to get too loose, but Toonie will have a plan and with Russell at 10 we always have a shot at opening up the opposition.

I am kind of looking forward to this game. NZ are missing a couple of big players in their front 5 (Retallick, Coles) and Read is recovering from a groin strain.

If Scotland can keep a stable set piece then Russell, Hogg and H Jones are unpredictable and can score rapidly to keep up with NZ. Equally, a heavy loss will make a point to some of the young guys about the level they need to aim for.

With Price and Russell we have no option but to play a loose game. For all his demerits Frodo at least helped Russell to manage a game better than he does with his club colleague. The bench is terrifying in terms of both inexperience and impact. McGuigan has apparently turned from a journeyman player under Toonie at Glasgow to a class finisher at the Sale. However hunting down  Ione or Naholo is  quite a tough assignment for your first potential cap.
Great to see the mighty  Gilchrist being deployed in his best capacity as an impact player from the bench. Unfortunately his impact is akin to a middle aged asthmatic fun runner for whom running is no fun at all. Berghan's scrumaging prowess will hopefully be seen at its best towards the 60th minute after the AB's have scrummed the legs out of Fagerson
By then the game will have gone away from us and management will use the change of water boy at half-time / change in the weather / change in the back row / scrumaging is an 8 man job (pick any one) as the reason that Berghan gets destroyed in the front row.
Its as if the Tombola has deliberately picked the least experienced 23 possible to have his built in excuse for a doing, or is that just me being cynical?

TJ wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I'm going to be watching this game from behind my sofa!

Yup - its going to get crowded in there    

Decent result for Scotland will be to score some tries, get some steals, put them under a bit of pressure and lose by less than 10.  to do that we will need one of the best displays we have ever had.

If you can lose by less than 10, you can win the game. NZ are completely fallible, if the game is that tight in the last quarter, you're in it to win it.

Before anyone says Toonie had no other options: here are two: Jon Welsh - tons of experience, playing superbly in a strong Newcastle scrum, happy on both sides and a genuinely scary prop, which is something in short supply in our pack.
Scott Cummings, the weegie Brodie Retallick (according to his boss Dave Rennie) would make an infinitely better impact off the bench than GG. The fact he is uncapped shouldn't matter as hardly any of the bench warmers have any caps either.

Before anyone says Toonie had no other options: here are two: Jon Welsh - tons of experience, playing superbly in a strong Newcastle scrum, happy on both sides and a genuinely scary prop, which is something in short supply in our pack.
Scott Cummings, the weegie Brodie Retallick (according to his boss Dave Rennie) would make an infinitely better impact off the bench than GG. The fact he is uncapped shouldn't matter as hardly any of the bench warmers have any caps either.

Has Welsh really played that much at LH lately? Whenever I’ve seen him for Newcastle he’s been playing 3. And I have no problems with Fagerson and Berghan being involved ahead of him there.

Cummings may be the next Retallic but he’s nowhere near yet. Gilchrist divides opinion more than anyone but has genuinely been on decent form this year, and there’s that many new caps just now I think it is sensible not to throw on another one. Amazingly he’s only got 16 caps – shows how often he’s been injured!

Welsh and Cummings both have their merits, but I am not sure they will be the difference between us winning and losing, or even between losing narrowly and getting thrashed.

Cummings will get his chance, maybe sooner rather than later and will become an international player, hopefully a good one. With so many inexperienced players though, this may not have been the match to start him in.

The Jon Welsh situation is a bit of an enigma, as he seems to be doing well with Newcastle but for some reason the coaches are not seeing it. Bergham has also been playing well though, so lets see what he can do.

Berghan has been superb this season, and fully justifies his call up. He's been outperforming Nel at club level and I fully expect the same at International.

Gilchrist has also begun to show something approaching form. I'd have like to see Cummings possibly get some time against Samoa, but for NZ I think some experience might be needed.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Has Welsh really played that much at LH lately? Whenever I’ve seen him for Newcastle he’s been playing 3. And I have no problems with Fagerson and Berghan being involved ahead of him there.

Cummings may be the next Retallic but he’s nowhere near yet. Gilchrist divides opinion more than anyone but has genuinely been on decent form this year, and there’s that many new caps just now I think it is sensible not to throw on another one. Amazingly he’s EVEN got 16 caps – shows how often he’s been DISAPPOINTING US!

Fixed that for you.

Scott Cumming can surpass both the Gray brothers if he stays healthy. I think he is already a better option by far than GG and still has so much potential it's scary.

jimbopip wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Has Welsh really played that much at LH lately? Whenever I’ve seen him for Newcastle he’s been playing 3. And I have no problems with Fagerson and Berghan being involved ahead of him there.

Cummings may be the next Retallic but he’s nowhere near yet. Gilchrist divides opinion more than anyone but has genuinely been on decent form this year, and there’s that many new caps just now I think it is sensible not to throw on another one. Amazingly he’s EVEN got 16 caps – shows how often he’s been DISAPPOINTING US!

Fixed that for you.

Scott Cumming can surpass both the Gray brothers if he stays healthy. I think he is already a better option by far than GG and still has so much potential it's scary.

I think Toonie is thinking ahead!

Realistically, GG is going to get injured playing the blackness so Cummings will come in for the game against the criminal element!

tigertattie wrote:

jimbopip wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Has Welsh really played that much at LH lately? Whenever I’ve seen him for Newcastle he’s been playing 3. And I have no problems with Fagerson and Berghan being involved ahead of him there.

Cummings may be the next Retallic but he’s nowhere near yet. Gilchrist divides opinion more than anyone but has genuinely been on decent form this year, and there’s that many new caps just now I think it is sensible not to throw on another one. Amazingly he’s EVEN got 16 caps – shows how often he’s been DISAPPOINTING US!

Fixed that for you.

Scott Cumming can surpass both the Gray brothers if he stays healthy. I think he is already a better option by far than GG and still has so much potential it's scary.

I think Toonie is thinking ahead!

Realistically, GG is going to get injured attempting to use a fork, never mindplaying the blackness so Cummings will come in for the game against the criminal element!

Fixed that for you.

Unfortunately it sounds like NZ are taking us seriously - there goes the chance of them being complacent!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42020467

Most definitely RDW, New Zealand know that not only does their preparation have to be absolute, but for the All Blacks to win over Scotland they have to play better than they have ever played before.

Good luck Scotland! You all sound doom and gloom, but I think you'll do better than many of you expect. Have faith!

Gilcrest like Swinson to me is totally overhyped. Barely club standard let alone international. I have never seen him do anything worthy of international callup unless you want someone to take on Big Jims penalty magnet role

aucklandlaurie wrote:Most definitely RDW, New Zealand know that not only does their preparation have to be absolute, but for the All Blacks to win over Scotland they have to play better than they have ever played before.

Is this sarcasm, or do you mean better than they have ever played against Scotland before? If the latter than that is a particularly low hurdle, given how easily New Zealand have thrashed us in the past.

Hardly recognize anyone on that AB team - bunch of no bodies - there for the talking

Remember, they are coming to fortress Murryfield - which has 100% win record under GT.

There is no fear - there is only destruction

#beerfridgeopenedearly

you know what sucks!

apart from jimbo when he takes his dentures out?

In years gone buy I would look forward to this match coz we knew we were mince so we were gonna get cuffed so we'd just watch the game to see just how good the blackness could be. Even then, if we actually got humped but made a decent fist of the game, we'd be all "ah we tried real hard though boys"

Now though, we actually have a decent team but a bit hit by injuries and after last weeks defensive efforts, I'm fearing a humping but we can't use the "we've been knickers for years" excuse.

Actually not looking forward to this

BUt if we win.........................

Ah - the pain of being a scotland supporter!

TJ wrote:Ah - the pain of being a scotland supporter!

It was ever thus!

I seem to be switching between blind hope and crippling fear at an alarming rate.

Maitland playing for Sarries against Gloucester. Could have done with him on the bench.

EWT Spoons wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Most definitely RDW, New Zealand know that not only does their preparation have to be absolute, but for the All Blacks to win over Scotland they have to play better than they have ever played before.

Is this sarcasm, or do you mean better than they have ever played against Scotland before?  If the latter than that is a particularly low hurdle, given how easily New Zealand have thrashed us in the past.

Oh I don't know about that....

Could it be a repeat of 1964?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-31537165

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/day-scotland-held-mighty-blacks-0-0/

For some reason I choose this game to travel up to Edinburgh and go to Murrayfield. Apparently I'd rather see the All Blacks than see Scotland win...!

Just watched the Gloucester v Sarries game and boy did Ben Vellacott have some impact off the bench. 20 mins and the game turned around completely and Gloucester, who were getting hammered in the first half, scored 17 points and won.

Clearly not just down to him but he was some part of it. He really does look like he is going to be some player. Definitely one to watch for the future.

RDW_Scotland wrote:For some reason I choose this game to travel up to Edinburgh and go to Murrayfield. Apparently I'd rather see the All Blacks than see Scotland win...!

First Twickenham & now tomorrow, you sure can pick em!

They're only Kiwis. What's the biggie?

Right guys. It's getting close to that time. I can't make my mind up so looking for some help.

I've got £20

What should I do?

Chinese or Indian ???