The Ashes: 2nd Test, Adelaide

by **Pal Joey** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 7:10 am

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test Adelaide, December 2-6, 2017

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, Handscomb, S Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Ali, Bairstow †, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:34 am

Stoneman out LBW trapped on the crease - reviewed.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:35 am

And out.England 29 for 1.

by guildfordbat Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:35 am

jimbohammers wrote:As if it couldn't get any worse than Marsh hitting the ball to all parts, we have Swanns (terrible) banter and Alison Mitchell on comms

During the last interval, I'm sure I heard Matt Smith referring to England having a ''Jarvis Cocker''. I assume that was his down with the kids way of saying shocker.

If Arlott and Benaud are listening from where they are, I hope they both have a large red to ease the pain. Sad

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:37 am

Guildfordbat no my point was more directed at Vaughan (a selector) beefing about who would have been of more use on the tour. Well he was one of the selectors so what happened Michael?

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:48 am

Rain stops play with England 29 for 1 as Cook survived a massive appeal for caught behind.

by jimbohammers Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:49 am

My rain dance has worked!

by guildfordbat Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:49 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Guildfordbat no my point was more directed at Vaughan (a selector) beefing about who would have been of more use on the tour. Well he was one of the selectors so what happened Michael?

Sorry, Craig, don't follow that. My comments about Vaughan were in response to what Alfie had posted. Unless I've missed something terrible, Vaughan is not a selector

by Steffan Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:54 am

jimbohammers wrote:My rain dance has worked!

The Ashes: 2nd Test, Adelaide - Page 4 Is-it-cowardly-to-pray-fo-008

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:00 am

guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Guildfordbat no my point was more directed at Vaughan (a selector) beefing about who would have been of more use on the tour. Well he was one of the selectors so what happened Michael?

Sorry, Craig, don't follow that. My comments about Vaughan were in response to what Alfie had posted. Unless I've missed something terrible, Vaughan is not a selector

Doh I know what it is. Silly me.

Think I am mistaking Vaughan for Strauss who is Director of Cricket. Sorry.

However, Vaughan is still wrongvas cannot see how Wood or Plunkett would have made a difference to how things stand.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:15 am

Covers coming off again. Pretty sure England would rather the rain continues to fall.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:30 am

Play now abandoned for the day. England 29 for 1 at stumps.

by alfie Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:54 am

Apologies Craig I misunderstood ...thought you were having a go at the selectors Doh

My mistake : I now see you and I are in agreement : Vaughan is taking cheap shots rather than adding anything useful to the discussion. Seeing Nathan Lyon hitting sixes must have scrambled my brains...

by alfie Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:08 am

England done something of a favor by the rain...could have been much worse than 29/1 tonight.
Have to start again tomorrow though and that won't be easy.

Have to say the marginals aren't going the tourists way : that Stoneman lbw looked a bit leg side live but no...drs says perfect. Earlier today all the apparently good leg before shouts were just missing. Game of inches...

If I can borrow Craig's map maker : tomorrow England must look to bat through no worse than 290/5 ( assuming a full day)...planning to get up near the Aussie total on Tuesday and leave Smith with a juggling act when he bats again. Tall order ? But certainly crucial they bat well into day four unless they want their own key bowlers carried off in a box : they've all bowled thirty or so overs and really need a rest.

Couple of days rain wouldn't go amiss , mind Smile

by guildfordbat Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:58 am

alfie wrote:England done something of a favor by the rain...could have been much worse than 29/1 tonight.
Have to start again tomorrow though and that won't be easy.

Have to say the marginals aren't going the tourists way : that Stoneman lbw looked a bit leg side live but no...drs says perfect. Earlier today all the apparently good leg before shouts were just missing. Game of inches...

If I can borrow Craig's map maker : tomorrow England must look to bat through no worse than 290/5 ( assuming a full day)...planning to get up near the Aussie total on Tuesday and leave Smith with a juggling act when he bats again. Tall order ? But certainly crucial they bat well into day four unless they want their own key bowlers carried off in a box : they've all bowled thirty or so overs and really need a rest.

Couple of days rain wouldn't go amiss , mind

Yep, although, even though they are now due to start earlier tomorrow to make some time up, at least it won't be under lights.

I would bite your hand off for 290/5 at the close. I would settle for avoiding the follow on, still be batting and then being able to reassess. If we lose tomorrow as badly as we lost today, it'll only be the weather left to prevent us going 2 down.

I certainly accept what you say about the marginals although we really have to be looking to some of our players to dominate more than Lady Luck. She was at least shining on us when Bancroft was run out yesterday although that now seems a very long time ago and is almost forgotten. I also accept that Lady Luck hasn't done Woakes, in particular, any favours (two spilled chances) but he's having an even worse start to this tour than I feared.

by sirfredperry Sun 03 Dec 2017, 12:03 pm

The Australian total shows the idiocy of putting them in. The only good thing for England was the fact that there was hardly any play after tea, otherwise they would probably have been several wickets down.
At least now they have the chance to bat in daylight conditions (conditions they would have had on the first day had they not stupidly declined to bat first). But I can see only defeat coming from this match and we could be looking at 5-0 again.
Am I being over-pessimistic? I don't think so. We're already having trouble bowling Australia out and this is easily the weakest batting line-up England have featured in an Ashes series since I don't know when.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun 03 Dec 2017, 12:40 pm

I do love how all of a sudden Plunkett/Wood have become the second comings of Lillee and Holding in the media - we’ve seen Wood Can bowl quick for 3/4 overs but by the time he’s in his 2nd/3rd spell he’s cooked and bowling 84mph too! And Plunkett hasn’t been in the Yorkshire side for a year and a half now - but cos he gets a few caught on the boundary in ODIs suddenly he’s our missing piece? Nah.

Saw someone suggest Garton cos he’s quick - he went for 86 in 10 overs for the Lions!

Problem is we needed everything to go right - and obviously it hasn’t (Stokes, injuries to TRJ/Finn and Moeen).

Hopefully we saw some fight with the bat tomorrow.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sun 03 Dec 2017, 1:05 pm

I meniokned Plunkett to you earlier as I do agree that this attack lacks bite and variety. As I often bemoan in international football, people need to pick for their surroundings and opposition.

It isn’t not playing Plunkett that bothers me, the point about his county tribulations is valid, it is more irksome to me not to take him and see. He’s not some wide-eyed youth who would “need to be playing” as he watches on, and they could have noted what his pace did to oppositions and if he was capable of being problematic.

I’ve feared the end of Anderson and Broad for a while as I’m not sure the pack behind them is any good. They would still appear to me the only two who will go out and earn their wickets. I was unimpressed by Ball, expected more of Woakes and Overton doesn’t seem someone to fear.

Woakes has disappointed the most because Oliver loves him so much that I assumed he’d really impress me.

by guildfordbat Sun 03 Dec 2017, 1:10 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I meniokned Plunkett to you earlier as I do agree that this attack lacks bite and variety. As I often bemoan in international football, people need to pick for their surroundings and opposition.

It isn’t not playing Plunkett that bothers me, the point about his county tribulations is valid, it is more irksome to me not to take him and see. He’s not some wide-eyed youth who would “need to be playing” as he watches on, and they could have noted what his pace did to oppositions and if he was capable of being problematic.

I’ve feared the end of Anderson and Broad for a while as I’m not sure the pack behind them is any good. They would still appear to me the only two who will go out and earn their wickets. I was unimpressed by Ball, expected more of Woakes and Overton doesn’t seem someone to fear.

Woakes has disappointed the most because Oliver loves him so much that I assumed he’d really impress me.

Many at the Oval still haven't forgiven Oliver for his love of Ansari.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun 03 Dec 2017, 1:20 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I meniokned Plunkett to you earlier as I do agree that this attack lacks bite and variety. As I often bemoan in international football, people need to pick for their surroundings and opposition.

It isn’t not playing Plunkett that bothers me, the point about his county tribulations is valid, it is more irksome to me not to take him and see. He’s not some wide-eyed youth who would “need to be playing” as he watches on, and they could have noted what his pace did to oppositions and if he was capable of being problematic.

I’ve feared the end of Anderson and Broad for a while as I’m not sure the pack behind them is any good. They would still appear to me the only two who will go out and earn their wickets. I was unimpressed by Ball, expected more of Woakes and Overton doesn’t seem someone to fear.

Woakes has disappointed the most because Oliver loves him so much that I assumed he’d really impress me.

Many at the Oval still haven't forgiven Oliver for his love of Ansari.

Maybe I need to start loving some of our opposition with my track record so far Laugh

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 1:47 pm

alfie wrote:

If I can borrow Craig's map maker : tomorrow England must look to bat through no worse than 290/5 ( assuming a full day)...planning to get up near the Aussie total on Tuesday and leave Smith with a juggling act when he bats again. Tall order ? But certainly crucial they bat well into day four unless they want their own key bowlers carried off in a box : they've all bowled thirty or so overs and really need a rest.

Couple of days rain wouldn't go amiss , mind

Indeed.

If England are not batting at the close of play tomorrow (in their first innings) then they are as good as 2-0 down in the series. The pitch is not a raging turner and once in there is no reason why they cannot make a big score. We have seen that even the likes of Cummins and Lyon could hang around and score. That has to be England's aim.

by Duty281 Sun 03 Dec 2017, 2:01 pm

Day two of the second test was the day - if you doubted for some reason, or needed absolute confirmation - that Australia won the series.

Superb batting by Marsh, with some good application by the others, particularly Cummings late on. England’s bowling was dismal and lacked penetration and threat.

As I said before the series, Moeen will be expected to perform like a frontline spinner even though he isn’t one. Woakes and Overton were well below the standard you expect of a test match bowler. Anderson perhaps a touch unfortunate.

Root has made some significant errors in his captaincy; this will go down as the most harmful of all, so far.

England will need to bat all day tomorrow and hope the rain saves the at some point.

by LivinginItaly Sun 03 Dec 2017, 4:14 pm

I didn't watch the last session as I was out of the house, so positively surprised to read that we only lost one wicket. I was gearing a 60-6 type of situation. Maybe this has made me stupidly optimistic, I think we can draw this game if we bat patiently and sensibly without getting caught in their traps (ie hooking the short ball). We need to be still batting at the end of the day, but it is possible.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 4:23 pm

LivinginItaly wrote:I didn't watch the last session as I was out of the house, so positively surprised to read that we only lost one wicket. I was gearing a 60-6 type of situation. Maybe this has made me stupidly optimistic, I think we can draw this game if we bat patiently and sensibly without getting caught in their traps (ie hooking the short ball). We need to be still batting at the end of the day, but it is possible.

Don't be deceived though. Much of the final session was rained off. England faced just over nine overs before the rain hit to end the day about 20 overs early.

by Duty281 Sun 03 Dec 2017, 5:16 pm

Also one review down after Stoneman wasted it.

by KP_fan Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:25 pm

Some of my observations on the game so far

1) The Pitch is flat with true bounce on which the ball sits up and hitting thru the line is easy

However it starts seaming suddenly sometimes, light or moisture combined could be the reason
It didn't spin for Ali but that does not mean it won't spin for Lyon

2) Eng's bowling lacked pace......the fast balls were in mid 130s...and i saw the new guy Overton bowl as low as 122kph Shocked

122kph for a specialist seamer in tests Shocked

He's onlyl a bit more than Ronnie Irani, and in no way more than Bresnan, who was oveerall a moderate bowler
Why is he playing ahead of Jake Ball or Steve Finn or Wood or Roland Jones

Unless his prime specialty is batting and only a part time bowler Smile

Eng's bowling just lacks the 4th and 5th gear and Root's captaincy reminds me of Tendulkar's
Wanting to do too many clever things too fast
Lacks steady , patient strategy and read of game in my view.

3) On the contrary Starc got a wicket with one that was 149kph, beating for pace and the guy ate up a referral too needlessly for nearly plumb scenario

4) Marsh was superb....he countered those patches of seam by playing so close to his body, and so straight and into his stroke so late covering the movement....looked so good like I always thought he was and wondered why he was ever dropped

Aus has 2 fast bowlers who are almost bowling all-rounders in Starc ( yet to fire) and Cummins......goodness what a straight bat and clean strokes he has

5) Eng are up and against it, BUT I wouldn't rule out a draw completely, for the pitch is not seaming all the time and when it's not, its quite flat and ball sits up and extracting a wicket hard work bending the back and digging it in.
They must first avoid follow-on
I think Aus will enforce if they can because of time lost
Batting again will take time out of the game
And if Eng get to 300+ Draw would be reasonably probable

by James100 Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:35 pm

KP_fan wrote:

2) Eng's bowling lacked pace......the fast balls were in mid 130s...and i saw the new guy Overton bowl as low as 122kph
122kph for a specialist seamer in tests

He's onlyl a bit more than Ronnie Irani, and in no way more than Bresnan, who was oveerall a moderate bowler
Why is he playing ahead of Jake Ball or Steve Finn or Wood or Roland Jones

Finn, Wood and Roland Jones are injured, though Wood may be back for Test 3. Ball went at over four an over in the first Test without being hugely threatening, so Overton's in for the extra control he brings.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:37 pm

Some good points there KP Fan.

England do not have real pace bowlers at test class level - perhaps you could label Wood as one but he is on Lions tour as is just back from injury. Finn is out injured as is Toby Roland Jones. Ball played in Brisbane and lacked a cutting edge and Overton, for all his lack of pace he can extract more bounce and already has taken more wickets than Ball did.

England's issue is they still have never really mastered how to play in Australia. They have had the odd successful series but largely it is heavy defeats down under. The bowlers struggle with the Kookaburra ball and no real seam movement and the bstsmen are too easily found out aside from the odd sporadic big innings. These issues have never really been addressed properly either so it is like an endless circle.

by KP_fan Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:46 pm

Controlled bowling might help on seaming pitches where the pitch / environment does the rest

On the two pitches seen so far in Aus...you need to bend your back and dig it in and Overton is not that type.. his 3 wickets notwithstanding, 2 of which were a bit lucky.....and he's just medium not even FM

Broad is the only one who's bending his back occasionally
And if the choice was Overton then they should have give Ball another game with specific instructions to Dig it In which he did in the one test he played in India and looked impressive

by Duty281 Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:37 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote: They have had the odd successful series but largely it is heavy defeats down under. The bowlers struggle with the Kookaburra ball and no real seam movement and the bstsmen are too easily found out aside from the odd sporadic big innings. These issues have never really been addressed properly either so it is like an endless circle.

True, but the same is happening to Australia now.

In every Ashes series dating back to 2002 (nine, including this one), only one has been won by the touring side (England in 2011).

by CaledonianCraig Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:19 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote: They have had the odd successful series but largely it is heavy defeats down under. The bowlers struggle with the Kookaburra ball and no real seam movement and the bstsmen are too easily found out aside from the odd sporadic big innings. These issues have never really been addressed properly either so it is like an endless circle.

True, but the same is happening to Australia now.

In every Ashes series dating back to 2002 (nine, including this one), only one has been won by the touring side (England in 2011).

This goes back far further than 2002 though. I think England last won a series in Australia in the mid 1980s and then a decade before that. And defeats in Australia tend to be trouncings whereas Australia are far more adaptable historically to playing and winning in English conditions.

by **Pal Joey** Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:53 pm

Australia held the advantage away in England briefly in 1993, then again from 1997 to 2013... so it has only been the last 4 years in which England has gained a slender 51-49 lead at home.

It's a different story for Australia at home who lead 92-57.

England have won 14 series in Australia. 10 away series wins prior to 1956
Australia have won 16 series in England. 12 away series wins between 1921-2001

by alfie Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:57 pm

A lot here to discuss...much of it can wait until after the match.

But re Overton , who apparently doesn't impress KP-f much : I am not saying he will be a star ; but he already has the same 3 wickets in one innings that Ball has taken in four Tests. I think he has had a reasonable debut , and is worth another look. We know he isn't as fast as Ball ; but contrary to a lot of opinions pace is not everything - even in Australia.
If England had an accurate 90 + bowler fit and ready to go I'd be happy to see him picked. But right now they don't so not much point grumbling about it.
The tactics they have employed so far against Australia aren't all bad ; and make some sense given the type of bowlers they have. For the most part they've restrained even the more aggressive Australian bats on fairly flat pitches - but have not been able to engineer a serious collapse (yet) : a deal of credit for that should go to the Australian batsmen and their patience and adaptability.
The injury to Moeen's finger is unfortunate as even at his best he is not going to match Lyon ; though he would surely be more effective fully fit. Again , there is nothing can be done about it...

In my view , the only way these tactics will work is if the batsmen can score heavily (as they did in 2010/11 , when the bowling tactics used were similar - though helped a lot by the presence of Swann , then at his best) . And it may be the current batsmen can't do so : but frankly , if they can't , there isn't any other method that will work anyway.

I do think sending Australia in here was an unnecessary gamble (sure it might have worked ; but it didn't) since I feel this England team generally bats better first - and arguably applies better pressure when bowling when they have a score (even a modest one) to defend. Root will have to be careful not to become typecast as a gambler : they are never popular unless they win !

This game is not yet lost though I get the general air of pessimism - since the start of the tour (well since The Bristol Incident , really) things just don't seem to be going England's way. I just hope the players don't allow them selves to succumb to the negativity - that way lies a 5-0 defeat. One good day of batting now could restore both the match situation and the spirits of the party ...and maybe even posters on here Smile

by guildfordbat Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:40 am

Fair and measured comments as ever there, Alfie.

Definitely need a good day coming up though. Day 3 as so often looks like it could be moving day - maybe for the series as well as this match. Let's see where we are at the end of that.

Kip now. Back around 7, UK morning.

by No name Bertie Mon 04 Dec 2017, 2:06 am

I think Root is receiving too much flack for electing to bowl first after winning the toss. He needs to be bold and needs to be his own man. It is not his fault the English bowlers just don't seem to be up to the task of bowling the Australians out in Australia. Whether bowling first or second it seems to me that England are just not quite good enough for these conditions against Australia. England have to try to grind out the game now.

by Duty281 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:07 am

Dim shot by James Vince. He's made Lord Geoffrey angry, and Australia delighted.

Two down.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:10 am

What a soft dismissal for Vince. Caught behind plsying at a wide delivery. Sloppy. England 31 for 2.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:19 am

Cook looking to settle in for the long haul. England 40 for 2.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:30 am

Calamity as Root is tempted into playing a shot and is caught st wide slip forv9. England 50 for 3 and thevseries is slipping away.

by Duty281 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:31 am

Another silly shot, this time from Root. Australia have shown the merits of application and patience in both tests; England have displayed idiocy.

I hope the English seamers are paying attention to how their counterparts are pitching the ball up.

by Duty281 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:42 am

Lyon v two lefties.

Oh joy!

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:57 am

Malan given out lbw. Reviewed and it shows tge ball to be going over the stumps. Decision reversed. 66 for 3.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 4:04 am

Malan almost gifts Australia another wicket with a run out. 73 for 3.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 4:18 am

At drinks England are 76 for 3. Cook 36 and Malan 11. This pair must stay in until the tea break you think.

by Duty281 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 4:26 am

Huge! Lyon snares Cook, who has looked uncomfortable against the off-spinner.

Steve Smith can spend the next couple of hours pondering the follow-on decision.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 4:27 am

Cook's promising innings is terminated by Nathan Lyon on 37. Cook caught behind by Smith. England in a deep hole on 80 for 4.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:00 am

England into triple figures 102 for 4.

by Duty281 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:01 am

Five down, just as it seemed Ali/Malan were establishing a decent foundation.

Good ball from Cummings. This Australian bowling attack is an all-round joy to watch.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:02 am

And Malan goes caught behind. Another England batsman plays himself in and gets himself out. England 102 for 5. The follow on still 140+ runs away.

by Duty281 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:13 am

Bairstow batting horrendously. He should just kick the stumps over and be done with it.

by **Pal Joey** Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:23 am

That straight drive looked better from Bairstow.
He just needs to read the ball and play the right stroke... it's all about shot selection and playing the right ball.
Now another nice shot from him through the covers for 4!

Agree Duty, our bowlers are a delight to watch. So much control on the ball and pitching it up. What England needed to do 1st session Day 1.

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