The Ashes: 2nd Test, Adelaide

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test Adelaide, December 2-6, 2017

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, Handscomb, S Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Ali, Bairstow †, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson

compelling and rich wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Just bat for two sessions and it’s job done. Get into the second session four or five down and it’s job done.

Lyon won’t be as effective, in all probability, because the only left handers left are Broad and Anderson. Overton, of all people, showed how to combat the short ball in the first innings.

One of Root or Bairstow needs to contribute 50-60% of the runs remaining, while the others can chip in the remaining total.

And Australia don’t have any reviews left, whilst England have two. Could be pivotal.

dont forget ali, who could have a rather big part to play (hopefully)

Ah yes! He has a test match average of 35...I wouldn’t say no to that tomorrow!

Duty281 wrote:

sirfredperry wrote:Some are getting way, way too optimistic. This is a huge score to get in the 4th innings of a Test. Eng could be 260-270 for four and I would still make Aus favourites, as they have the bowlers to blow away a tail. 
   The good thing is that we're still debating the outcome of this match. It looked done and dusted for Aus when England trailed by so much after the first innings.

I still think Australia will win, but England are only one big partnership away from victory. The ball wasn’t doing a lot for Australia yesterday, and if Root can bat through the first session undefeated, then England are in business.

I probably give England a 20%-25% chance of pulling off the greatest of great escapes, which is a hell of a lot better than yesterday!

Just a word of caution though. Towards the end of play the bowlers had got a bit of reverse swing going - always a useful thing to have.

Duty has his optimism back - if there is one thing to take from this test, it will be that

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Duty has his optimism back - if there is one thing to take from this test, it will be that

win this test and it wont be long until a England to win world cup 2018 thread will pop up!

'Where shall the watchful sun,
 England, my England,
Match the master-work you've done,
 England, my own?
When shall he rejoice agen  
Such a breed of mighty men
As come forward, one to ten,
 To the Song on your bugles blown,
   England—
 Down the years on your bugles blown?  

Ever the faith endures,
 England, my England:—
'Take and break us: we are yours,
 England, my own!
Life is good, and joy runs high  
Between English earth and sky:
Death is death; but we shall die
 To the Song on your bugles blown,
   England—
 To the stars on your bugles blown!'

Come on England!

sleep is alluding me tonight so think i'll stick out the first hour at least. that hour will be key, couple of early wickets and i can get to bed fairly safe in the knowledge its over. no loss in the first hour and i may have to stick it out a bit longer

Utter BS decision that - clearly no hotspot so how is it out???

Woakes out 2nd ball. Review unsuccessful.

Absolutely nothing on hotspot. Tiniest thing on snick-o-meter. Only given originally because Dar knew Australia had no reviews left.

I think that's a dreadful decision.

Very harsh indeed. No hot spot and slight murmur on snicko so given out. Highly controversial. Woakes out on second ball of the day.

So we might as well just get rid of hotspot now? And give it as out anytime there is a noise when the ball is anywhere near the bat?

I’m sorry but that is abysmal- utterly abysmal

hot spot for me has always been a poor technology to use. seen many decisions where no clear marks show up. with real time snicko it really isnt needed as it just confuses the issue. with the small spike on snicko dont see how you could overturn on-field decision

Both teams are halfway there as Ali squeezes the first run.

Sh!T sh!t shtter! thats the game

Root gone. Game over. Series over. Fun while it lasted.

And sleep it is

That reverse swing is blowing England away. Root caught behind on 67 and it is game over. England 177 for 6.

compelling and rich wrote:hot spot for me has always been a poor technology to use. seen many decisions where no clear marks show up. with real time snicko it really isnt needed as it just confuses the issue. with the small spike on snicko dont see how you could overturn on-field decision

At the very least, the third umpire needed to analyse the delivery in real time and check a variety of angles to see if there was another possible source of the spike on snicko e.g. bat hitting pad.

He didn't.

I'm aware hotspot had some issues when it was first used, but it is high-quality tech now. As Olly says, if an umpire is simply going to discard hotspot on a DRS review, what's the point in keeping it?

Jonny Bairstow hasn't struck a test hundred for a year and a half.

He's certainly due one...

bowling really well here the aussies. need to just stick in here. edge towards under 150 then with the new ball scoring hopefully will come a little quicker

stupid shot by ali, just as i said he needs to stick in.

Yeah, brainless shot. He was really struggling in that over - atrocious footwork - and then he tries a premeditated sweep?!!!

Here comes England's best batsman...!

Overton has been dropped. Should have been taken.

155 to go!

Ali has to be in danger of being dropped. Can’t bat against Lyon and bowling very poorly.

Beauty from Starc with the new ball first up. Overton plumb.

Bairstow and Broad might as well engage T20 mode now.

Broad battled hard but pace of Starc and the new ball was just too much. The end is nigh. England 223 for 9.

Bairstow is being absolutely wasted so low down the order. It's criminal.

He's a better batsman than Vince, Ali and Malan.

Bairstow bowled by Starc and England all out for 233 and Australia win by 121 runs. They go 2-0 up with three tests to play.

Crumb of comfort for England was they showed some spirit and almost dug themselves out of a massive hole. However, they must learn that you have to compete for five days and four innings and not just two days and two innings.

Game over. Well played Australia.

Woakes was never out. Ali's dismissal was pathetic. Otherwise, it was some excellent reverse swing bowling which defeated England on what could have been a glorious afternoon; perhaps such an afternoon is still being played out on some parallel universe.

England have recovered some pride and much needed belief. They can bowl Australia out cheaply. Smith isn't Bradman. And England's batsmen are getting starts.

It might not be 5-0 after all!

Having said that, Root will come under huge pressure after his error at the toss. And Australia's bowling attack, all four, are superb to watch, whilst England's is tame by comparison. The contrast in bowling ability between the two sides may be brutally highlighted at the WACA. And Warner is due a big innings.

Onto viciously fast Perth next, where England haven't won a test match since Callaghan was Prime Minister. I would bring Ballance in for Vince.

I guess we'll just have to settle for 3-2 England!

Batting order definitely needs a reworking. Root up to 3, and start converting 50s to 100s!!! Bairstow to 5. Foakes in at 7 and keeping. Bairstow has kept well but at 5 he can influence the game more. Moeen isn't capable of batting higher than 8.

Cook
Stoneman
Root
Vince
Bairstow
Malan
Foakes
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

Get more right handers in also reducing Lyon's influence. He's got 11 lefties out and only 1 right or out

compelling and rich wrote:Ali has to be in danger of being dropped. Can’t bat against Lyon and bowling very poorly.

I’m still shocked they bowled first with his finger injury still hampering him - I wonder if they rest him next game to try and get him fully fit, especially as it is Perth

England need to address three points in the batting line up.

Vince, after a promising start in the first innings of the first test, has returned to his old habit. He needs to go.

Bairstow has to move up the order. He worked at 7 when he had both ali and Woakes coming in after him. Here he is left with the tail far too quickly.

Ali has too move down the order. His batting intelligence isn't good enough for a number 5 or 6.

Cook
Stoneman
......
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali (if fit)
Woakes
Overton ( deserves another test after a promising debut)
Broad
Anderson

If youre going to mess with the batting order stick Bairstow to 4 or 5. England need a player to make a century if they are going to get a score of 350 plus any time in this series, he isnt goin to do that from 7 when the tail cant cope with pace or spin.
Theres perhaps some merit in the idea of Foakes coming in, but it 100% isnt going to happen. Bairstows keeping hasnt been a problem, and taking the gloves off him because of the failings of others just isnt going to happen. Foakes isnt a better bat than Vince or Malan ...and we should have noticed by now that a decent county average doesnt count for much in tests. Debuting him as a non keeping batsman at 7 would be up there with the ridiculousness of Buttler in India. Whilst I wouldnt write anything off from the mind of Bayliss I really dont see him playing the next test if everyone is fit.

I absolutely do think Bairstow needs to bat higher, and have said this from the start. Going to 6 isnt really a significant change, as with Moeen he would still often be coming in with the game gone. Even the pundits have started acknowledging that with Cooks form hes Englands second best bat now. Its not just a case of being stranded with the tail, but also coming in when the games already gone under huge pressure or with nothing but damage limitation to be done.

Stoneman, Malan and Vince are all struggling a bit but deserve more time. I do think Vince should be a place or even two lower though, to give him some breathing space. So yes its time for Root to step up to three. Its reached the point where that gamble has to be taken now, even if it means exposing him to the new ball (or if theres an early wicket do they bring in woakes to try and see off a few overs night watchman style ).

Ballance of course exists too ...but really that would be more fiddling of the deckchairs. Certainly not at 3 surely? It was a bit of a *meh* that he got on the toru in the first place, and has been treated as a peripheral figure to date ... there to make up the numbers. Hes not exactly renowned for his ability to stand up to genuine pace, and dopesnt offer anything that Malan or Vince dont...aside from being a change. Id have him ahead of Foakes as a specialist bat though.


The basics of a batting order having your most technicaly correct 3 first then your best stroke players next followed the ones who are there to make up the numbers seems to have bene ditched by England. Take some risks, challenge your best players to take resposnbility and give Vince some breathing space.

Moeen is a big issue. His batting has always been up and down, and his aggressive style will always lead to inconsistent results. Thats just what you get with him ...and why he will never be good enough to get selected purely as a batsman.
Usually in his batting dips his bowling has come up trumps, and vice versa. But with the injury hes really looking out of sorts. So the break is really coming at a good time for him. I can see why theyve continued to select him, as they did with an injured Swann last time.
There wasnt a great call for spin here (although Lyons shown what a class act he is and that there was something for off spinners in the pitch) in what was always a seamers pitch and likely a short test. Moeen gives balance to the side, even if his off with the bat bumped down the order he gives a lot more confidence than having Woakes come in at 7 and Crane at 10/11. The other option they had was to go with just Root and Malan fiddling a few overs and stick Foakes in ...not going to happen.
And for the following tests they will likley need more from their spinner. Crane is just too much of a risk for me ( depsite talking about taking risks with the batting above) and weakens the batting too much...even if Moeens not been doing the job.
Assuming Moeens fit he has to play, but bump him to 7.

Seam bowlers.... Lets just start form an assumption that Broad and Anderson are seen as untouchable, and neither will be rested for the third test after a break. 
Woakes has cemented his place with a fine return to form, albeit in helpful conditions in the second innings and gives more solidity to the batting at 8.
Overstons first innings should be enough to get him a place again, so really its hard to see a change being made.
Wood is a touch faster than the others, even if hes no starc. His records nothing special of course, but he may well get in a look in late in the series to rotate out Anderson or Broad or even to take Overtons place (much to the ire of certain posters). Something needs to be tried in the seam bowling, and with his return to fitness and a few overs under his belt in the tour game he may just force hi way in...but Id be surprised to see the change for T3.

Stokes of course is the dark horse in all this. He needs to get some runs in NZ and rejoin the squad for the tour game to be in contention for Perth, and theres no immediate sign thats possible. I have no idea how long the CPS will take to come to a decision, and then theres the ECB enquiry to follow (which would no doubt involve some kind of slap on the wrist) 
Having him back at 6 and the option of Moeen as low as 8 in the order is the one thing taht would genuinely make this side look better (and this from someone whos a sceptical about stokes a s genuine test 6 ). But still best case looks to be the fourth test, which is still a long way off. 

The tour match might tell us a bit more. Assume Moeen will be rested to aid his recovery. Foakes should bat. Crane and Woakes, Overton and Ball should bowl the majority of the overs to give the selectors a better view. Make sure Vince Malan Stoneman all bat up the order and get time in the middle. 

Theres also the wildcard option of brining in someone else in from the lions, but that looks a long way off happening. Only genuine pace or a top 3 bat whos in the form of their life would be worth it ....and the lions have neither. Jennings at a push, but I dont see them hitting taht panic button yet ...and really hes just not a great player at this level.


TL/DR theres not a lot England can do other than fiddle Bairstow up the order and maybe bring Wood in for Broad if they had the balls to do it. Pray that Moeen gets fit and that Stokes gets the all clear tomorrow.

5-0

Mitchell Marsh added to the Australian squad for the third Test at the WACA. Loudmouth Peter Handscomb facing the chop.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Mitchell Marsh added to the Australian squad for the third Test at the WACA. Loudmouth Peter Handscomb facing the chop.

OK ill go back to a prediction of 4-1 then

I guess this is down to them wanting to have the extra bowling option rather than being forced into resting one or more of their front 3 bowlers. Bit harsh on him if he does get dropped, but SMarsh has made the best of his last last chance.

Day 5 observations:

-->Eng flattered last evening to duly deceive this morning

-->Unless their seamers get an English Patch in both innings of a test match I don't see Eng winning or even saving a test match on this tour

--> Eng batsmen do not look like getting more than 300 runs in first innings
Eng bowlers do not looking like winding up Aus for less than 400 in first innings

That said exposed to same bowling under similar conditions both sides might fare equally with the bat

or in other words bowling is letting down Eng

and their lower order Woakes/Ali/Bairstow who were performing like proper batsmen on other pitches are no more than bowlers who can bat usefully getting 20s and 30s and that too by chancing their arm

and the useful batsmen elsewhere like Broad are being exposed as pure tailenders.
I still believe Bairstow at 4 or 5 can deliver more by getting set and playing like a proper batsman

Starc was Akramsque with the second new ball


--> DRS needs to have clear guidelines on how Hotspot and Snicko are meant to work in tandem
both should be affirmative or only one, or one has priority over the other or left to the sweet will of Umpire
In my view they should use only one of the two and based on what I have seen, snicko is more consistent and underlying technology more tested/ robust as opposed to Hot spot per my understanding.

KP_fan wrote:

--> DRS needs to have clear guidelines on how Hotspot and Snicko are meant to work in tandem
both should be affirmative or only one, or one has priority over the other or left to the sweet will of Umpire
In my view they should use only one of the two and based on what I have seen, snicko is more consistent and underlying technology more tested/ robust as opposed to Hot spot per my understanding.

Maybe if they differ it should be like umpire's call for LBWs? Stick with the on-field decision unless there is conclusive evidence (i.e. both technologies agreeing) that the umpire was wrong.

Well that was a disappointing end after the spirited fight back the day before...

Not that surprising , I guess : once you concede a first innings lead of 200 plus , absolutely everything has to go right if you're to get back and win...and that usually isn't going to happen over the whole of two innings. Once Woakes and Root fell without adding it was game over ; just a question of how long.

The depressing part of this is that the eventually easy margin will both fuel the Australian confidence (which was sagging a little the night before ) and test the belief of an England team which has a few too many inexperienced players and doesn't seem to have quite come to terms with Australian conditions as yet.
Contrary to Duty's reference to "viciously fast Perth" the pitch for Test three is likely to be extremely flat - the days of lightning fast WACA strips are long past. Should actually be easier for the touring batsmen , provided they are prepared to play themselves in and work for their runs. But might not offer much to the bowlers ; bit of swing when the wind is right , maybe...but I think it will be hard work. And surely Root is due to lose a toss after wasting this one...

Changes ? Not many options are there ? Ballance (at 3) would be an act of faith : and surely they don't need another left hander. As Goose says , they won't change keepers ; so Bairstow to six is about all I can see - minimal change but at least breaks up the left hinders ; Moeen might be better at seven - and hopefully better for a short rest.
If they'd won in Adelaide I'd have toyed with resting Anderson (who hasn't done well in Perth ) to have him fresh for Melbourne , and playing Wood. But as this is now sudden death they have to trust in their stalwarts to lift. Forget Stokes. Overton might do OK there anyway...I liked his effort on debut.
Root just has to play an innings not a cameo. Is the captaincy dragging him down ? It's a worry.
Cook got starts this time ; but Lyon seems to have his number now , which is a real blow as he is capable both of batting long and also helping his partners to relax...or at least he used to.
Vince as I've said before isn't a number three . But he got going once already and anyway they don't have anyone else so I think he stays where he is. And I like Malan who has copped a couple of really deadly deliveries.
It is looking alarmingly like a looming whitewash But this Australian side has its own weaknesses in batting (and their bowling , while very good with four of them in form , fit and making a great combination , is still restricted to four men : if they could be kept out there long enough...) So all isn't yet lost provided the team doesn't give up like the previous tour party. We cannot know unless we are part of the dressing room ; but the day four effort suggests there is some spirit left. Just hope it has survived today.

I really want that MCG Test to be , at least nominally , "live". So get a draw in Perth , please...

I'm worried about Cook - he's averaging just a tad over 30 in 2017, and that is including his double hundred against a West Indies attack that essentially resembled a division two county outfit. And now he's becoming a bunny for Lyon, when he was always such a stalwart against spin bowlers (and has generally done better against spin in his career than pace).

Also the Aussies calling up Mitch Marsh ahead of Maxwell is laughable considering Maxwell was first reserve for the first test and since then has made a double century and a 96!

He's a better hurdler.

I think the flack the English Cricket team and Joe Root is receiving is too much.  They are not suddenly a very bad team, they are just not very good when it comes to playing under Australian wickets and conditions, and they are by a margin second best to the Australian team under these conditions.  It doesn't help not having a settled batting line up.  That said I would like to see more patience in the batting - it seems many wickets were lost with players wanting to push the score along and taking risks that could have been avoided.  So maybe some players lack tactical awareness or discipline.

Root could do with going to three, but it isn't like he's the only captain of a side that he's the best batsman of who has decided to protect himself a touch at 4. 

Problem is that the openers aren't that good, at the moment at least. 

Plus their bowling is so much better than ours in these conditions. At least Anderson and Broad retain control throughout their spells, even when wickets seem less likely. 

Stokes is needed, but I don't think we'll see him. It's a shame, I would have given us a chance with him.

FWIW, I'd go Cook, Stoneman, Root, Bairstow, Malan, Vince, Ali, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson.

However, I do think our bowling attack lacks variety and bite, so would be questioning which of Overton (likely) or Woakes to change.

I want to add the following note:

2013 Ashes Series: 10 July – 25 August 2013, Held in England.
• England win series 3-0.  
• England Cricket Team lauded as world beaters.

2013 Ashes Series: 21 Nov 2013 – 7 Jan 2014, Held in Australia.
• Australia win series 5-0.
• England Cricket team branded a disgrace.
• Jonathan Trott suffered a stress related illness early on and pulled out of this series.
• Coach Andy Flower was forced to resign, Kevin Pietersen was scapegoated and was told he would never play for England again.
• Recriminations and chaos ensued.

So in the space of about 4 months England went from world-beaters to no-hopers according to the media, which resulted in a shake-up in the whole of the England Cricket Team.  In reality all that changed were the conditions, with England better suited to English conditions, and Australia better suited to Australian conditions.

The above comment is very true.

As I pointed out the other day, in the last fifteen years, only one Ashes series has been won by a touring side (when the greatest England team of the 21st century battered a weak Australian team).

I predicted this current series to be a 5-0 to Australia, but if Australia were to tour England this summer, I would predict an English victory.

My major concern is that England look likely to lose 5-0, whereas I think Australia would make a go of it in England before losing.

A 5-0 would rightly have heads spinning.

Yes I think the true measure of the greatness of a side is how well they do in overseas conditions and I think selection should take account of the conditions.  Maybe there needs to be more variety of wicket types in England - you can't change the weather conditions (although there are regional variations) but you can change the pitch conditions (drainage, soil type, grass type).  Maybe there also needs to be a training programme where young players are sent out to play a few years in Australia or India.  The idea being promising young players who are developing as fast bowlers are sent to Australia for a few years, young players developing as spin bowlers are sent to India for a few years, promising batters could be sent to Australia and to India to gain experience dealing with fast conditions and slow conditions.  Maybe England could develop slightly different squads for the different conditions.

None of that should paper over the cracks though. Theres fundamnetal issues with Englands production of test class players now....espeically in bowling overseas. Whilst its almost always been the case that theyve struggled on tours that doesnt change the reasons why and what needs addressing if they are actually going to be a top Test side.

Fast bowlers...we simply havent had any worth a place since that Flintoff Harmisson era, and both of those were flawed. Finn was lauded as one but outside of ODIs rarely bowled above the high 80s even in that series where he took Aus apart; he was still a yard behind the Aussie quicks. Woakes, Stokes and Wood are all a yard back again.
More than just teh raw poace England also dont have any left armers worth picking. Theyve tried to force both into the side in recent years but it just hasnt come off, the quality just isnt there.
Theres been a lot of comment in the press this week about this...f the way the England coaches focus on injury preventation above generating raw speed from an early age and that pitches encourage the devleopment of seam movement techniques rather than movement in teh air and reverse swing (which requires pace).

Spinners...again historicaly England havent had great spinners but right now its as bad as it was in the 90s. Moeen is very inconsitent and relies heavily on players getting themselves out chasing him, he alsos eems to be heavily affected by self confidence issues. He doesnt get enough spin to be really effective on turning wickets. Again county  pitches are copping the blame for this, allied with England coaches insisting that people bowl legally. 

Then the batsmen ... its not just this tour but for years now England have been unable to find a player who can settle at 2 or 3. Its gone beyond a joke now and is truely woirrying, what was a strong point a decade ago is becoming a geneuine achilles heel ...and with Cooks poor year its no wonder theyve become entirely reliant on runs at 6-9 to make comeptitive scores.
The new batsmen whove come in for this tour just arent that good. Thats been exposed already. Its not unfair to mention that, they were talked up a bit in some quarters before the tour but really the likes of Stoneman and Malan are just decent county players. Vince has more class about him but is no more a test 3 than Ian Bell was, and he doesnt have quite his level of strokeplay. That was a guy who took stick through his entire career but England would have back in a beat right now.

As for the 2013 tour... the reasons for that being such a disaster are quite different. No question it was a tough act to retain the ashes, but that side had more quality in it. They had a genuine spinner, they had genuine proven class in the top 3, and they had bags of expereince as winning players and a sqaud with guys like Stokes and Root ready to step in and Broad still had a bit of agression and zip. The wheels came off become off ebcuase of injury, burn out and a complete fall out of the squad....years of pressure and issues came to a head. The stories of KPs disenagament and the bitterness between him and the rest fo the squad are well documeneted. Swann being forced to play through injury led to his early retirement hitting the side further. Trotts issues no doubt were related to some of this and part of the vicious circle. The media were far harder on that side than they have been on this one, despite them actually getting in position to win games unlike this shambles.

I dont think the level of expectation on this side has been anything like it was on that one, and what hope there was was based more on gaping holes in Australias line up rather than quality in Englands; certainly once Stokes was out knocking the balance of the side.

Even at home they havent exactly being dominating opposition in recent summers. Im have real concerns about the future of the side as Cook edges toward retirement. The battuing depth just isnt there, and the issues with bowling on anything other than a seaming wicket wont go away soon. 

They havent had the same issues with division, morale and stress ( or if they have then theyve done a better job of hiding it) and backroom division on this tour... but the end result has been the same or worse. So I dont think its at all unfair to question if the squad is really any good, they clearly arent ...tour after tour and the endless changes to personel show that.

County cricket just isnt encouraging or developing  the right kind and quality of players, and nor is Loughborough. 

ODI/T20s sides are pretty good though....so its not like we are lacking cricketers, its just ones with the right attributes for success in tests.

Is Crane actually good enough to play? Is he a leggy? Will any of them turn now? Is Moeen injured, out of rhythm or not good enough to get what he needs in these conditions?