The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?

The (happy?) problem for Glasgow Warriors is they have outgrown Scotstoun in terms of support and therefore seats/capacity.   Facilities are also poor in terms of clubhouse as we are tenents to Glasgow City Council (Glasgow Life).   It is thought we could sell out 10000 every week with the number of persons seeking season tickets.    As you know that is approaching Leinster /Munster type numbers although we are still a few seasons behind their levels of support/income.   We need a stadium of our own and within Glasgow, to grow further.  

Re Zebre.  A visit earlier this month for the Pro14 game with Glasgow I was impressed with their set up - they own their ground and training facilities - really good clubhouse also.  On field they have improved quite a bit too and their support is up.

This season, I am just trying to get used to things. I have to be honest, I do not like this conference malarky one iota. But it is where we are and we all have to adjust.

I cannot fathom how results affect group placings when the teams are not in the same group. I will get used to it though, no doubt.

I love the conferences. While they don't feel as balanced as I would like, I just checked the total points for each conference and they are identical (both 228 points) so mathwise they look spot on.

Trending (UP, DOWN or about the SAME as last season)

Scarlets: UP: They've shown that last season wasn't a one off. When on form they can blow most teams away.

Ospreys: DOWN: Its been a bad season for the Ospreys after a good 16/17 season. They look like a side that need rebuilding. Tandy got the sack but their squad looks very thin.

Dragons: SAME: They've made it clear that this is a rebuilding season. On the pitch they've been about the same level as last season.
Cardiff: SAME: They're in their mid table comfort zone.

Leinster: UP: They've added greatly to last seasons squad and have many players who are maturing now.

Munster: SAME: Munster are about the same level as last season. The future looks positive though.

Ulster: DOWN: Ulster are a bit of a mess this season. They've had no luck. Coetzee and Deysel have been injured most of the season. Jackson and Olding on trial. Bowe and Trimble coming to the end of their careers. They've a lot of forwards who are not up to the required level.

Connacht: SAME: Thats not saying much because last season was poor from them. They're another side that has to rebuild. Winning the pro12 is a distant memory now.

Edinburgh: UP: I've been impressed by them this season. Cockerill is doing a fine job there.

Glasgow: UP: Clear leaders in the pro14 though they didn't do so good in European cup.

Zebre: UP: They've faded a bit in the last month or two but overall theres been an improvement in them this season.

Treviso: UP: They've improved a good bit this season. They've still a bit to go to be more competitive but its a step in the right direction.

Cheetahs: -: No previous form to go on but they've done well in their first season. Its a learning curve for them and Kings. They're hard to beat in their home patch.

Kings: -: They lost last seasons squad so they have to reuild. They were clearly not ready when they joined the pro14 and things have played out as we feared and predicted. You can't judge them for another season or even two or three seasons.

I’d have said Scarlets are the same. There’s no difference from last season, is there?

RiscaGame wrote:I’d have said Scarlets are the same. There’s no difference from last season, is there?

Last season they did it without having one eye on a push for Europe. This season, through an even better squad make up they've done it whilst also beating top English and French teams. So I'd definitely say that's an improvement.

Well bath at least.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well bath at least.

Yes that must be why Bath are in the knockout stages.

Bit down from the top teams in England though for me. Though it's all context; they are a top team compared to rotherham. And on a 2nd thought didn't make the knockout stage.

Point is - the Scarlets have done better at this stage of the season than last.

Yup that's fine. Would.just be a little more restrictive in top teams myself.

Pot Hole wrote:.... Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season. ....

On that note, Munster are setting up a waiting list for season tickets next year - 17-18 season all sold out (including 10 year tickets).

Ps. Its Lansdowne, not Landsdowne.

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hole wrote:.... Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season. ....

On that note, Munster are setting up a waiting list for season tickets next year - 17-18 season all sold out (including 10 year tickets).

Ps. Its Lansdowne, not Landsdowne.

Excellent stuff.

PS. I know.

It was interesting to hear Mark Robson and Ieuan Evans describe (during commentary) that the current Pro 14 structure is completely unfair yesterday. Among the reasons cited was the fact that teams such as Cardiff Blues have to play stronger sides in their additional derby games to keep those local rivalries - while the Cheetahs play the Kings 3 times - that effectively gives the Cheetahs a huge head start (as the Kings re so bad) and can be the difference in crucial league table positioning.

I suppose, once the conferences are regenerated again it might mix it up and someone else will be vying with the Cheetahs for league table positioning but it's a good point, and one that won't go away. Unless the Kings suddenly get better.

RugbyFan100 wrote:It was interesting to hear Mark Robson and Ieuan Evans describe (during commentary) that the current Pro 14 structure is completely unfair yesterday. Among the reasons cited was the fact that teams such as Cardiff Blues have to play stronger sides in their additional derby games to keep those local rivalries - while the Cheetahs play the Kings 3 times - that effectively gives the Cheetahs a huge head start (as the Kings re so bad) and can be the difference in crucial league table positioning.

I suppose, once the conferences are regenerated again it might mix it up and someone else will be vying with the Cheetahs for league table positioning but it's a good point, and one that won't go away. Unless the Kings suddenly get better.

That's the same as any conference system, its hardly fair on Kings having to keep playing the Cheetahs when they might stand a better chance against Zebre or Dragons

There will always be an imbalance

marty2086 wrote:

There will always be an imbalance

Exactly. Very poor.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

There will always be an imbalance

Exactly. Very poor.

Its all in the eye of the beholder, in any system some teams are seen as having an advantage yet quite often it's wrong and they over look other imbalances

The conferences where a compromise solution to fnd a place for the SA teams. It had to be done very quickly. My hope is for a few more teams and end up with a 2 teir league in a few years

TJ wrote:The conferences where a compromise solution to fnd a place for the SA teams.  It had to be done very quickly.  My hope is for a few more teams and end up with a 2 teir league in a few years

Terrible idea.. Who would watch the 2nd tier? This could be the death of mid table teams like Blues, Connacht and Edinburgh..

As for the point above about Cheetahs having basically 15 points against Kings, the answer is very simple: Kings weren't supposed to be that bad. That said, it's not that much easier than having to play the Dragons..

Alex Corbisiero co hosting the Rugby Pod this week and talking about his job at NBC said they will be announcing some new properties in the near future, maybe a new tv deal for Pro14?

No chance of 2 Tier - the 2nd tier would not be financially viable

Why do we have to have conferences ? How many more games would it be if we just had a straight 14 team league without playoffs or with playoffs if you like ?

LordDowlais wrote:Why do we have to have conferences ? How many more games would it be if we just had a straight 14 team league without playoffs or with playoffs if you like ?

a straight 14 team league without playoffs?


Laughably .............Perfect.

I hate playoffs. It's either a league or it isn't...consistency through a year - top of the pile wins at the end.

Good one, Lord. It'll never catch on though - the playoff addicts are in too deep now. More money and marketing and all that crud.

How do the French manage, they have 14 teams don't they ?

The conferences are a necessary evil to bring in SA and maybe US teams. I'm not a fan but think playoffs make more sense in a 2 conference League than in the old PRO 12.
It is unbalanced to keep derbies which is unfair but people would be up in arms if it was more balanced and some derbies were lost.
I also dont like how teams are assigned as it gives equal footing to Welsh and Irish teams. Yes it should be two in each bit not set out the way it currenlty is.

Over all conferences are a nessary evil, playoffs make more sense now. You will upset people by either having it unbalanced with derbies, or more balanced without them.

[quote="LordDowlais"]How do the French manage, they have 14 teams don't they ?[/quote

By having large expensive squads

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:How do the French manage, they have 14 teams don't they ?[/quote

By having large expensive squads

What, like what the Irish provinces have ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:How do the French manage, they have 14 teams don't they ?[/quote

By having large expensive squads

What, like what the Irish provinces have ?

Er no - our depth of squad is not close to the English or the French
We, like the other Celtic teams, do not have the numbers.
Don't be confused by numbers - our numbers include a lot of kids

Leinster are possibly an exception

LordDowlais wrote:Why do we have to have conferences ? How many more games would it be if we just had a straight 14 team league without playoffs or with playoffs if you like ?

They wont give rid of play offs so we are talking 5 more games
The only way that would be possible is ditching the Anglo-Welsh for a start.
In reality will never happen

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:How do the French manage, they have 14 teams don't they ?[/quote

By having large expensive squads

What, like what the Irish provinces have ?

Er no - our depth of squad is not close to the English or the French
We, like the other Celtic teams, do not have the numbers.
Don't be confused by numbers - our numbers include a lot of kids

Leinster are possibly an exception

It's our kids that play the best stuff!

LordDowlais wrote:How do the French manage, they have 14 teams don't they ?

The French have 17 teams and play 32 rounds which means they don’t finish until the end of June and start in early August.

geoff999rugby wrote:The only way that would be possible is ditching the Anglo-Welsh for a start.
In reality will never happen

Never say never.

We do not put full strength sides in that as it is. There is a lot of chatter about scrapping it.

The Top 14 has 17 teams?

That's a first on me!

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The only way that would be possible is ditching the Anglo-Welsh for a start.
In reality will never happen

Never say never.

We do not put full strength sides in that as it is. There is a lot of chatter about scrapping it.

Oh please don't. Phill will lose his life if he doesn't have some umbilical cord connection to his beloved Anglo bit.

Phil is a tool of the highest order. There is a reason why he is no longer around this forum.

But back on topic, there is no reason why we could not have a straight league, I do not like these conferences, but I will try and get used to them. Will they all change next season ? Will the teams all be jumbled about differently ? Or will we get the same conferences next season ?

     Tinpot, two-bit pathetic joke league


Leinster vs Scarlets
@ RDS Arena
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Frank Murphy (Ireland), Jonathan Peak (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

Roll the Darth Vader music.... cameras............................ACTION!

Oh my word, that will not sit well with many at all.

So much for neutral TMO's. What a joke this league makes itself look at times.

If I were not part of this league, I would be laughing my head off at the way it was run. Instead I am horribly perturbed.

No wonder nobody takes this league seriously.

You spin me right round, baby,
Right round like a record, baby
Right round, round, round.

SecretFly wrote:
You spin me right round, baby,
Right round like a record, baby
Right round, round, round.

I love a good "get the blame in early on the Irish cheats" never fails to amuse me

who said anything about Irish cheats ?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves.

LordDowlais wrote:who said anything about Irish cheats ?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves.

Well a minor few Welsh fans have historically accused Irish refs, touch judges and TMOs of intentionally making wrong calls against teams to please there employer.
That's my perception

LordDowlais wrote:who said anything about Irish cheats ?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves.

Quit Picarding your forehead there, Lord. You'll do yourself an injury through all these threads you're doing it through. You'll concuss yourself.

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:who said anything about Irish cheats ?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves.

Well a minor few Welsh fans have historically accused Irish refs, touch judges and TMOs of intentionally making wrong calls against teams to please there employer.
That's my perception

Yes, your perception, and that perception is wrong, so please get over yourself.

The fact that I have, is that it's things like this that give people who hate the league, the fuel to make the accusations about the Pro14 and accuse our league of being amateur. The haters are out there, and this situation, however way you look at it, gives them substance to rubbish the league.

This is a concern for all of us, what ever your nationality is.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:who said anything about Irish cheats ?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves.

Well a minor few Welsh fans have historically accused Irish refs, touch judges and TMOs of intentionally making wrong calls against teams to please there employer.
That's my perception

Yes, your perception, and that perception is wrong, so please get over yourself.

The fact that I have, is that it's things like this that give people who hate the league, the fuel to make the accusations about the Pro14 and accuse our league of being amateur. The haters are out there, and this situation, however way you look at it, gives them substance to rubbish the league.

This is a concern for all of us, what ever your nationality is.

But your perception of how the league is viewed is correct?
All others are wrong?
Wow you must be really important.

And some of the biggest "haters" are the minority of Welsh fans who take every opportunity to "blame it on the Irish conspiracy"
You keep me amused, so keep it up

LordDowlais wrote:

This is a concern for all of us, what ever your nationality is.

I can assure you, the Irish won't be concerned about this, Especially at about 6pm on Saturday.

Shameful.

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:who said anything about Irish cheats ?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves.

Well a minor few Welsh fans have historically accused Irish refs, touch judges and TMOs of intentionally making wrong calls against teams to please there employer.
That's my perception

Yes, your perception, and that perception is wrong, so please get over yourself.

The fact that I have, is that it's things like this that give people who hate the league, the fuel to make the accusations about the Pro14 and accuse our league of being amateur. The haters are out there, and this situation, however way you look at it, gives them substance to rubbish the league.

This is a concern for all of us, what ever your nationality is.

But your perception of how the league is viewed is correct?
All others are wrong?
Wow you must be really important.

And some of the biggest "haters" are the minority of Welsh fans who take every opportunity to "blame it on the Irish conspiracy"
You keep me amused, so keep it up

Yep, it's all the Welsh, all the time. The Irish are perfect. They do nothing wrong.

There you go.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

This is a concern for all of us, what ever your nationality is.

I can assure you, the Irish won't be concerned about this, Especially at about 6pm on Saturday.

Shameful.

Maybe we just believe people go out to do the job to the best of their ability no matter what passport they own.
Try it some time