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Ban all Boxing Empty Ban all Boxing

Post by huw on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 1:46 pm

After the tragic loss of Scott Westgarth, brain charity Headway have called for a ban on all boxing with their chief executive saying "boxing is a senseless waste of life and the time has come for it to be banned".

Obviously this will bring out the pro boxing fans pointing out the many life's saved from boxing. The troubled kids who left gangs to concentrate on their boxing and learned a discipline that stopped them getting back involved in gang life. Those against boxing will point at the basic issue of people punching each other, as hard as they can to try to knock each other out.

From the outside boxing is a barbaric sport. People outside of the sport will look at two people beating each other up. They fail to see the skill of movement, the people who are lessening impact through twists and turns. The defensive masters who block and parry shots. They see only the highlight knockouts.

Whilst this is the third death in 5 years in British boxing and every one is obviously a tragedy the 1000's of fights every year mean that whilst horrible things can happen the odds aren't so bad.

There are around 38 deaths per year from snow sport accidents (skiing and snowboarding). Countless people die from horse riding accidents. Rugby players are experiencing far more problems as they get older to the concussive nature of their sport and it is another sport that has had a number of deaths.

If boxing was banned then pretty much every one of the above sports would need to be looked at.

I have struggled a little with my love of boxing. Morally, knowing that every boxer I'm willing to win also has his competitor that I'm wanting to lose. Thinking of his opponent as less than a person as he's being damaged by the flurry of punches that make his legs buckle, my heart racing as I hope my favourite can land the final punch that sends the opponent to the floor and my jubilation as he's unable to stand after a count of 10.

There is a blood lust that blinds me to what is happening in front of me.

Even watching a skilled practitioner not getting hit it means there is a less skilled practitioner in the other corner who will get hit.

There is a beauty to this sport but when broken down there is a barbarity that is hard to justify.

When I started this post I was trying to find a positive from it but didn't want to go down the same line as all the pro boxing press will as mentioned earlier in pointing out the many lives that have been made better from boxing. However I have found it difficult to look in another way at this. With every yin there is a yang and every positive it has as a spectacle a negative is easy to find from the other corner. A great punch thrown and landed by one boxer is a bad punch to take for his opponent.

The fact is there are two willing fighters getting in the ring. They are aware of the potential risks and rewards available to them and they feel the reward outweighs the risk. Maybe this is the only justification actually needed.

huw

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Post by Scottrf on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 2:09 pm

In order to live, you must be willing to die.

I'm sure you can reduce your risk of dying by not doing what you love, but why?

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Post by huw on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 2:15 pm

Scottrf wrote:In order to live, you must be willing to die.

I'm sure you can reduce your risk of dying by not doing what you love, but why?

Would be interesting to know how many boxers actually love boxing and how many see it as a job. I'm sure there are those that love the craft and discipline but hate the business.

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Post by compelling and rich on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 5:59 pm

getting in a car driving to work is more dangerous but they aint banning that. you cant take risk out of the world, boxers are choosing to take those risks its their life after all.

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Post by Guest on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 7:25 pm

It would just go underground and the deaths would really tally up then. The ban boxing debate has always been daft.

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Post by No name Bertie on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 8:20 pm

I suppose if it wasn't for boxing then Anthony Joshua would have progressed in the ranks of drug dealing and may have ended up with a knife in his chest or a bullet to the head.   Civilisation is only 10,000 years old, and Homo sap as a species evolved that pumped testosterone into the males, developing fists and iron jaws (apart from the Khan). Fight Club the novel and film discusses the feminisation of society and the sense of how many men feel alienated and redundant.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 9:39 am

On examination there isn't much of an excuse for Boxing existing..

A sadistic sport where the whole point is to inflict hurt and pain on your opponent....

Who's favourite fight is a 12 round boxing clinic by Pernell Whittaker ??...He was a stinker...

All the greatest fights in history have been violent...

Boxing brings out the worst in people (Me included)...When a fighter you don't like is hurt on the ropes you excitedly want the other guy to finish him..

As for Boxing saving people..(Perhaps true)..We don't know how impaired with diminished capacity exponents are in their Boxing free years..... to say this is any kind of leveller..

You may say it is the Boxer's choice to fight but people aren't always their own best advisors and plenty of repent at leisure for them and their families later on if the career fails badly..

Saying that I hope they don't ban Boxing... because something inside me likes watching People punch eachother..

But it isn't something I'm proud of..


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Post by huw on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 10:11 am

compelling and rich wrote:getting in a car driving to work is more dangerous but they aint banning that. you cant take risk out of the world, boxers are choosing to take those risks its their life after all.

People don't crash their car on the way to work to entertain bystanders....


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Post by huw on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 10:14 am

FreekShow wrote:It would just go underground and the deaths would really tally up then. The ban boxing debate has always been daft.

So what you are saying is that people will always do it regardless of the legality. How many boxers would be keen to be boxers if the top price for getting beat up was a few hundred rather than a few million?

I would hate to see boxing banned, whilst it's difficult to justify my love for the sport there is love there.

huw

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Post by huw on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 10:19 am

No name Bertie wrote:I suppose if it wasn't for boxing then Anthony Joshua would have progressed in the ranks of drug dealing and may have ended up with a knife in his chest or a bullet to the head.   Civilisation is only 10,000 years old, and Homo sap as a species evolved that pumped testosterone into the males, developing fists and iron jaws (apart from the Khan).  Fight Club the novel and film discusses the feminisation of society and the sense of how many men feel alienated and redundant.

There is an obvious flaw to the suggestion a boxer wouldn't have turned their life around. Would there not have been something else that took their interest.

Without boxing would AJ have been inspired to be an athlete, an actor or a businessman? If there were role models out there for the troubled youths then they could have turned to something else.

I always feel the type of guys from fight club are the ones that never learned to stand up for themselves when they were kids and have a regret about it as adults. They would just become football hooligans Wink

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Post by huw on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 10:25 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:On examination there isn't much of an excuse for Boxing existing..

A sadistic sport where the whole point is to inflict hurt and pain on your opponent....

Who's favourite fight is a 12 round boxing clinic by Pernell Whittaker ??...He was a stinker...

All the greatest fights in history have been violent...

Boxing brings out the worst in people (Me included)...When a fighter you don't like is hurt on the ropes you excitedly want the other guy to finish him..

As for Boxing saving people..(Perhaps true)..We don't know how impaired with diminished capacity exponents are in their Boxing free years..... to say this is any kind of leveller..

You may say it is the Boxer's choice to fight but people aren't always their own best advisors and plenty of repent at leisure for them and their families later on if the career fails badly..

Saying that I hope they don't ban Boxing... because something inside me likes watching People punch eachother..

But it isn't something I'm proud of..


Think you get where I'm coming from but I am the guy that watches old Sweetpea fights for fun....

Even with that and with is "lighter" punches the dude on the other side of them would be getting damaged. Unless every boxer was born with those reflexes and there were no punches actually landed in a fight it'd be dancing or Wlad vs Fury.

There is a darkness about the love of watching someone hurt someone else.

To non-boxing fans this is probably the same as man sausage fighting, dog fighting or bull fighting.

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Post by No name Bertie on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 12:41 pm

"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
Mr Shakespeare, Hamlet.

If we all think about it we should ban boxing, ban horse jumping, ban violent films and literature (what is its purpose?), ban prostitution (exploits vulnerable women), ban the sex industry (ditto), ban gambling (exploits the vulnerable and weak minded), ban smoking (addictive, damages the health), limit alcohol intake (addictive, damages health) ...

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Post by huw on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 2:16 pm

No name Bertie wrote:"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
Mr Shakespeare, Hamlet.

If we all think about it we should ban boxing, ban horse jumping, ban violent films and literature (what is its purpose?), ban prostitution (exploits vulnerable women), ban the sex industry (ditto), ban gambling (exploits the vulnerable and weak minded), ban smoking (addictive, damages the health), limit alcohol intake (addictive, damages health) ...

I like the fact alcohol was limited and not banned, you would have really lost me at that suggestion!

Maybe we should just start with banning horse jumping as it's a bit crap anyway....

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 03 Mar 2018, 7:22 am

Many countries have tried to ban alcohol (e.g. prohibition in the US), some religions "ban" it (e.g. Islam), other countries limit it in various ways.

With regard to boxing, it ultimately depends on how much individual freedom you want your society to have.  You might want to ban boxing, but then someone else might want to ban something you like or indulge in.  Boxing is regulated within Britain,  there are various regulations and there is licensing that attempt to make the sport as "safe" as reasonably possible without banning it.  If boxing was banned in Britain, boxers would just relocate to where it was not banned assuming they had the means and will to do so.  

Furthermore having a ban requires a system of surveillance, threat and punishment for those breaking the ban.  If there is a very great public demand for it, the ban would require a movement towards a "police state" if it is to be enforced.  Other policies might be cost effective to reduce the demand for it, such as persuasion and indoctrination, within schools, and within a media consensus.

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Post by huw on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 9:51 am

No name Bertie wrote:Many countries have tried to ban alcohol (e.g. prohibition in the US), some religions "ban" it (e.g. Islam), other countries limit it in various ways.

With regard to boxing, it ultimately depends on how much individual freedom you want your society to have.  You might want to ban boxing, but then someone else might want to ban something you like or indulge in.  Boxing is regulated within Britain,  there are various regulations and there is licensing that attempt to make the sport as "safe" as reasonably possible without banning it.  If boxing was banned in Britain, boxers would just relocate to where it was not banned assuming they had the means and will to do so.  

Furthermore having a ban requires a system of surveillance, threat and punishment for those breaking the ban.  If there is a very great public demand for it, the ban would require a movement towards a "police state" if it is to be enforced.  Other policies might be cost effective to reduce the demand for it, such as persuasion and indoctrination, within schools, and within a media consensus.

I think it's difficult to compare it with alcohol which is loved widespread with boxing, which isn't. It really isn't a comparison.

I'm sure boxing would go underground if it was banned but there would be less adulation and less money, meaning the best athletes would pick a different sport (or stay in crime - to repeat the boxing writers defence...). Boxing would become more of a gypsy / hard man sport. This would wipe out boxing without the need of additional policing.

Knowing that at every fight there would be worse fighters to watch, not enough security and a crowd that is likely to bubble over at any minute. It would in effect eat itself.




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Post by horizontalhero on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 10:53 am

Like most of you my love of boxing isn't always something that sits comfortably with me. I can rationalise the acute brain injuries and deaths to some extent, but it's the chronic long term impairment that I struggle with, and makes boxing so hard to defend- Look what this sport did to to the likes of Ali, Robinson, Pep- it ruined it's greatest ever exponents. And the list of fighters left broken is endless, and it's not confined to past eras when refs /corners were less squeamish-look at Meldrick Taylor, Terry Norris, Wilfred Benitez, look at the behaviour of Valero, Bowe and Jermaine Taylor.
I also find myself asking if it was punches to the head rather than the loss of purchase /missing of the spotlight that led the like of Benn, Hatton and Graham to the brink of suicide.

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Post by rapidringsroad on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 8:00 pm

I've never competed in a boxing match apart from a few rounds in the Army, but I do enjoy watching boxing and also Motor Cycle racing. Both sports have their share of danger but I don't watch them to see someone crash or get hurt but appreciate the skill required to excel at their chosen sport. Did you know that more people are killed by a vending machines than by sharks ?

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Post by huw on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 2:52 pm

rapidringsroad wrote:I've never competed in a boxing match apart from a few rounds in the Army, but I do enjoy watching boxing and also Motor Cycle racing. Both sports have their share of danger but I don't watch them to see someone crash or get hurt but appreciate the skill required to excel at their chosen sport. Did you know that more people are killed by a vending machines than by sharks ?

I'm just finishing my script for vending machinenado.

A world in which a tornado brings killer vending machines to the sleepy but populated by mainly good looking people made up suburban village of Huwsburb.

I will invite you all to the premier.....


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