IRFU to reduce the numbers of NIQs

It has been announced that IRFU plan to reduce the number of NIQs for the provinces from 5+1 to 4+1. Personally I believe this to be a terrible idea and in the long run will only succeed to threaten the success of Irish teams.

Granted Irish rugby at the moment is in a fantastic position, with the Heineken Cup and Magners league both resident on the island for another year but this success will not last forever. And if truth be told much of the success of the past few years would not have been capable if not for our NIQs


Had Rocky not played a season for Leinster the backrow would not be in the shape it is now, Ulster would not have gotten out of their group this year if it wasn't for their Saffers and the munster back line has long relied on men such as Dougie, Warick, Mafi and Topoki.


Irish rugby needs this influx of foreign players to keep us competitive and to allow our youngsters to learn from some of the best the world has to offer, and as it stands they are, the results speak for themselves.

If its not broke, don't fix it.

Yeah but Rocky would still have been there and so would Tipoki and Mafi.

It's just reducing them by one which I don't see as a problem.

Does NIQs sound an eency-bit racist to anyone else?

It's not a drastic cut but I can see why it would raise an issue of concern. Personally I think the balance is really good as it is, and don't really see the need to change it. Have they stated exactly why they are reducing it?

Have they stated exactly why they are reducing it?

To stop Connacht improving,perhaps?

Are Connacht not exempt from it anyway?

They haven't stated publically this is the case is it? But the usual sources tell me it's true.

Munsty, I don't think it is racist sounding... it's a shorthand way of saying not qualified to play for Ireland and doesn't relate to nationality. You can be a citizen of a country and not eligible to represent them in rugby if you have played for someone else after all. Isa Nacewa is a Kiwi but he's also NNZQ (not New Zealand qualified).

No Mick, it's to improve gametime for Irish players. Connacht have been allowed extra NIQ players in the past. The IRFU are trying to put pressure on the other provinces to let promising young players who aren't getting gametime move to Connact so that they give Irish players more time

Personally I think it's better to spend lots of money on high-profile signings and give more gametime to young Irish players alongside them than to buy in NIQ players for Ireland. I wouldn't want to go lower than four.

Ulster have the following NIQ and project players signed up beyond next season. John Afoa (NIQ), Johann Muller (NIQ) and Jared Payne (Project).

Ruan Pienaar, Simon Danielli and Pedrie Wannenburg are all out of contract and I can see all three moving on. Pienaar we will want to keep, but I think the lure of ousting FdP as Springbok 9 will take him back to Super Rugby. Danielli and Wannenburg I expect will want to stay, but I think Ulster will want to look at other options and won't necessarily renew their contracts... We'll be making a bid for the services of Tommy Bowe I think.

It's being reduced I guess so that more Irish players get squad places and a chance to play at the highest level.

Connacht are not exempt but I think they're allowed a higher number when they struggle to sign Irish players.

Notch,

It was a joke.

I think it's a good thing. It is something Ive wanted to see for a while and I am all for it. My reasons are clear. It reduces budget, our dependencies on outside forces and it steers us more towards producing our own home-grown talent.

The IRFU and the Academies are doing that very successfuly now. So reducing the NIQ's by one - aint no big bad thang. It is the next logical step for me.

We will always need to fill gaps in certain postions for the provinces and need experienced top-class players brought in, to help our young players grow. But, to reduce that dependancy, is a great step forward, for me.

It also means reducing the chances of less than average journeymen coming in. It would be a waste of an NIQ place. All the provinces have been wasteful like this over the years. Some dreadful dross has been brought in - as well as the successful ones. Lose the dross and bring in quality.

Another key decision is: What about the +1 in the future?

Get rid of the +1. The whole idea is a complete farce. I feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing.

this will probably sound very stupid, but....what is the +1 all about?

rugbydreamer wrote:this will probably sound very stupid, but....what is the +1 all about?

+1 = A Project player Dreamer.

aaah okay, cheers Gibbo

Where has this been anounced?

MBTGOG wrote:Does NIQs sound an eency-bit racist to anyone else?

It reminded me of NVQs actually.

Richardt Strauss (Leinster Project player) will qualify for Ireland mid next year. He is a 25 year old Saffer. Lots of people are not happy about it and they have great grounds to be unhappy about it as well.

Let's be honest, Munster could have won the league without Peter Borlase, Leinster could have won the HC without Galarza/Newland/Berne, reducing the number by one is a good step towards Ireland becoming a SUSTAINABLE source of quality players, next time we have an "injury crisis" we shouldn't look to the nearest/cheapest journeyman.

A project player is someone who can qualify to play for Ireland through residency (i.e., he hasn't been capped yet).

Well I see I'm in the minority but I know some people agree with me, stag being one, the +1 is a strange one still with me I can't make my mind up it. If Strauss qualifies for Ireland and plays I wouldn't be to cut up about it to be honest but I can fully understand why people would be

Gibson wrote:
Another key decision is: What about the +1 in the future?

I would just rather we had 5 NIQ players. And forget about projects. But the IRFU attitude is, other teams are doing it (England with a lot of players, Scotland planning to with Visser, Italy have done it over the years with lots of journeyman Kiwis) we must do it too.

The IRB has to look at that residency rule, it's a serious problem

The French did it with P de Villiers and some guy that played for ASM

I think this is good news and will hopefully lead to the provinces strengthening ( Connacht in particular). Hopefully we will see the young lads who are not getting much game time ( Maybe Nagle or Annet from Ulster) heading to Connacht for year or two. Also the project player thing is something that should be rid of.

...and when you look at the Welsh system which operates along similar lines....

hughie1986 wrote:Well I see I'm in the minority but I know some people agree with me, stag being one, the +1 is a strange one still with me I can't make my mind up it. If Strauss qualifies for Ireland and plays I wouldn't be to cut up about it to be honest but I can fully understand why people would be

Hughie, your article is solid. Your points are as valid as any of the others. Maybe it wont work and we will get caught short in a few years time, because of this. Only time will tell the truth.

I just hope it does work. That's all.

Yeah, I think the +1 is a real bug-bear with lots of Irish fans.

Thomond wrote:I think this is good news and will hopefully lead to the provinces strengthening ( Connacht in particular). Hopefully we will see the young lads who are not getting much game time ( Maybe Nagle or Annet from Ulster) heading to Connacht for year or two. Also the project player thing is something that should be rid of.

I don't follow that logic. If the number of NIQs is lowered, then that means the provinces will be giving a squad place to a local lad instead of an NIQ, so they'll be less inclined to allow a local player to sign for another province.

I agree with Hughie. The 5+1 system has served us well in recent years and I have no doubt that there will come a time when Irish rugby doesn't have the means to rely on our acadamies and when we need that little bit extra cover.

I would argue that we just allow 6 NIQ and scrap the Project Player.

I went off the point completely there to be honest.I think though that the reduction of NIQ's will encourage the provinces to look to their academy more.Then they may allow their youngsters to try and gain experience at another province (note: I just made a complete ars of myself )

Why will there defintely be a time when we can't rely on our academies?

To be honest, it's not like it's the hardest rule to reinstate if things go wrong.

MBTGOG wrote:Why will there defintely be a time when we can't rely on our academies?

To be honest, it's not like it's the hardest rule to reinstate if things go wrong.

Rules are made to be broken(French proverb,much employed)

Exactly. I'm sure if there's some injury crisis, they'll bring the in the Top 14 style "medical joker" rule.

I think it's a good idea to reduce at this stage and see where it takes us. There are a lot of good young players in the 18 - 23 age bracket and we need to focus on them. By reducing NIQ by one the provinces have potentially 300-400k a year to plough into academies and grass roots rugby.
I would be all for scrapping the Project player as well. I won't be cheering too loud when Strauss ousts Rory Best from the International panel (used as an example) or if Jared Payne ends up as BOD's successor!

I wouldn't be cheering at all Rava.

MBTGOG wrote:
I wouldn't be cheering at all Rava.

@Rava

Do these players who finally represent another country obtain the nationality,or is it just a RU recognition?

And that makes my first ton

Mick(TEFC) wrote:Do these players who finally represent another country obtain the nationality,or is it just a RU recognition?

And that makes my first ton

Well done on the ton!

And no, 3 years isn't enough to acquire an Irish passport through residency. Its just RU recognition.

Mick <chef>, a good question, eloquently put (for you) but I don't know the answer. Sorry!!

Congratulations on being a Centurion

Hobo?? We need a <chef> smiley!!

They can attain nationality just like any foreign nationals working in the country.

Mickado wrote:They can attain nationality just like any foreign nationals working in the country.

But it takes five years before they are eligible.

Residence and Naturalisation

If you don't qualify to become a citizen by birth or marriage, you can still apply for naturalisation if you've lived in Ireland for 5 years. Examples of people who might benefit from such a situation would be those who have been working here over a long period of time using work permits, or non-Irish dependents of Irish citizens. Specific information, once again, is available at the Department of Justice / Email: Department of Justice.

The following conditions must obtain before the Minister will confer citizenship on someone after meeting the residency requirements:

* The applicant must be resident in the State
* The applicant must be 18 years of age or older.
* The applicant must have resided in the State for five of the nine years preceding the application. The last year of this period must have been one of continuous residence.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they are of good character.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they intend to reside in Ireland after naturalisation.
* The applicant must make a formal declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state.

Persons studying in Ireland may not make an application. Study periods DO NOT Count toward the five year reckonable residence requirement when applying for naturalisation.

It should be borne in mind that the Minister for Justice grants naturalisation at his or her "absolute discretion".

I dont think its a bad thing at all, its hardly radical. It encourages teams to blood younger players more often to increase depth. And lets face it, the RaboDirect (uhhh) is the perfect place to experiment.

Young players with talent are all over our teams, they just don't have the experience and we often opt for the NIQ player given they're the safer option given their gametime. Elsom kept SOB out of 2009. SOB is, IMO anyway, a better player than Rocky.

Four players is more than enough to cover any gaps. NIQ players are only a short term fix. Better off a team suffers in one position for a season or half of one until a player is fully blooded to provincial rugby.

I would be more comfortable with the project player if it took longer than 3 years (correct me if im wrong). I think 5 years + is a big commitment to make for any rugby player and can see then how they would have developed in an adopted country.

I have no particular gripe with the system as it is but if they want to reduce it next season we can swap Danielli for Bowe

I agree it should be higher than 3 years. But I wouldn't have any animosity towards a player that took advantage of the three year rule for Ireland. As long as that's the rule a player is entitled to play for the country his qualified for if he wants to. But it should be higher.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I agree it should be higher than 3 years. But I wouldn't have any animosity towards a player that took advantage of the three year rule for Ireland. As long as that's the rule a player is entitled to play for the country his qualified for if he wants to. But it should be higher.

I agree Feckless. I dont believe we are above capping Strauss (if he is one of the best options). Currently he is the only one in line for it. Diack is A cap worthy but no more. Borlase doesnt look up to it and Payne will most likely not hang around after his contract ( i think he will be 29 by then )

The naturalization rules posted above is incomplete in so far as residency in any of the 32 counties is sufficient to gain abn Irish passport - it doesn't have to be the south.

The Provinces have known this change was likely to occur for some time and are planning accortdingly

Geoff is here!!!

I know only a matter of time before my will power gave in

red_stag wrote:Geoff is here!!!

I think it will be very strange and there will be a lot of controversy when/if Kidney has to make a call between Strauss and Best/Cronin.

I can imagine the public being split right down the middle on the issue.

There are so many countries that take advantage of this rule England being the prime example, the French and the Blacks are the same to a lesser extent.

I still amn't completely comfortable with it though.

If you were Kidney in that situation who would you chose if both were available, Strauss or Best? Morally obviously as well as just performance standard related.

Rory Best every day of the week. He's a leader in the team. He has a relationship with the other players. He is an experienced international. I don't agree with a 3 year residency period and Strauss for me is not representative of the people of Ireland. I expect to see him fly home to South Africa once he retires as a player. We have enough depth to cope without him.