The Pro 14 the tide lifts all boats

So let's look at what the Pro 14 has done for each nation and how without it the individual nations would be lesser at club level and also international

#1 Quaility at the top end.  If any of the nation's has a club (using club rather than all the names we call them) who is constantly in and around the final of the league, then that nation can put 10+ of the players from that club, with a few others and have a strong international team.  It is only when Treviso get up that Italy will improve.  If we all had our own leagues with the same players they would not reach the same standard as it would be big fish little pool as was Ireland and Wales in the 90s

#2 Union held to account.  If we had our own leagues the top brass could say well union X did this but that won't work here.  Because we are all in the same league with similar incomes the union who fails has to fix the problem because fans can see their union is failing.  We have seen the SRU and WRU make changes to the next highest level.  If they work expect Ireland and Italy to follow so they don't get left behind

#3 Player Rotation.  Because of the changes to quailifcation for Europe and the forced player rotations team need players who are as good as their first choice.  This year with all the players missing with Italy, Zebre and Treviso both won away with their B team.  I use this to show that even Italy are getting strong seconds.  Because you need a bigger squad of better players competition is strong in the club.  Because players know they will get their chance and it is up to them to take it they work hard knowing their time will come. Best example is Leinster who have internationals coming back wondering if they will still have their place on their return. Both Dragons and Edinburgh loom to be clearing dead wood at the end of the season as they feel the seconds aren't good enough

#4 Refs.  We are the only clubs in Europe and international (NH) whose players get refs that they play with on a regular basis so learn to deal with them better.  Also because of the vast range of views held by refs of the different unions players are raised to think on their feet and plans are more adaptable because it isn't mono reffing.

#5 Managers.  Managers know if you take a job in one of the 4 Nations (excluding SA) and you do well you stand an amazing chance of coaching the international team (still the highest goal).  This means top managers want to come to the league to show what they can do and get a shot at international honours

We will never have the houses to have our own league but the league we have is better than anything we would have by ourselves.  It forces us to be the best and get our fis big in a big pond.  Yes things could be better but I think we are all going in the right direction and always improving.  While this year has been good for the league next year could be rubbish but the above fundamentals aren't likely to change
The Pro 14 not the league we wanted but the league we needed

The reffing is interesting in the Pro14, new rules and interpretations all the time!

Like what we saw yesterday, Leinster players may sit on their backsides and block the opposition scrum half from moving the ball at the breakdown,

You can take players out in the air.

Chop/ no arm tackles below knees are ok.

It is true that there are different takes by the ref but not wrong (usually)
But I said it's a strenght

The fact the PRO14 is no longer a league is a big change with the move to a conference-based Championship.  

The decision to adopt the IRFU model to suit their own circumstances is a good one for the Scottish, Welsh and Italian unions.  And the decision by all to gradually reduce the number of expensive foreign capped players and invest more in their domestic player pathways.  

The dropping of the B&I Cup and inevitably the Angko-Welsh Cup in favour of an expanded and better player quality British & Irish development comp for the test windows post 2020 is the next logical step once the Premiership get their act together and ring fence the Prem 14 post 2020 new global season.

There was an interesting article over the 6 Nations that talked about the change in Italian rugby in the last few years. How the younger players coming through were more confident and a better stand. How they are getting their academy up and running on a more professional level

Because of them being in the Pro 14 Italy has seen how quickly Scotland went from their level with them to being competitive. The player talked how the international manger visits the teams tells them what to work on and talks with the managers about what he needs. If the Super 6 works in Scotland it will be a roadmap for italy

Brendan wrote:There was an interesting article over the 6 Nations that talked about the change in Italian rugby in the last few years.  How the younger players coming through were more confident and a better stand.  How they are getting their academy up and running on a more professional level

Because of them being in the Pro 14 Italy has seen how quickly Scotland went from their level with them to being competitive.  The player talked how the international manger visits the teams tells them what to work on and talks with the managers about what he needs.  If the Super 6 works in Scotland it will be a roadmap for italy

One of the reasons, O'Shea took the Italy coach job was that he saw what was coming through at U20s level. And their recent performances this season are further signs of that.

A guy called Stephen Aboud is in charge of the development structures. He was the former technical director of the IRFU - an Irish guy who set up the development structures and pathways in Irish rugby during the nineties, prior to the academies becoming more professional. The FIR persuaded him to move to Italy and start working on the structures there whilst they were looking for a new Head Coach - the story goes that Aboud recommended O'Shea for the job. FIR invested in over 30 new Formation centres about 4-5 years ago and have been building from that since with Academies being developed.

And I think them being in the Pro 14 was the driving force behind them trying to keep up

Brendan wrote:And I think them being in the Pro 14 was the driving force behind them trying to keep up

Undoubtedly, being a part of it has helped. Although, I don’t think they have persuaded the three shareholders of being successful just yet.

I read that Italy now have reduced the number of their academies from around 7 to 4 last year. Unless these four are taking in the same number of youngsters this suggests a regression rather than a progression and a lessening of depth of players in Italy in the future. It suggests as well a union that is having to make cut backs. So I'm worried for the future for Italian rugby.

The two South African sides have added a great deal to the P14 this season, a different style of rugby, different interpretation. It has definitely freshened things up.

Intotouch wrote:I read that Italy now have reduced the number of their academies from around 7 to 4 last year. Unless these four are taking in the same number of youngsters this suggests a regression rather than a progression and a lessening of depth of players in Italy in the future. It suggests as well a union that is having to make cut backs. So I'm worried for the future for Italian rugby.

I couldn't find anything (but not great on internet). I found an article on ESPN that compared the Super 10 to the standard of National 1 in England and stays the jump up to PRO 14 is hard. It says underage is growing really well and most clubs have bigger underage then a few years ago.

I know they also got in a renowned guy for the academies so if he did reduce it to 4 it was probably with good reason.

maestegmafia wrote:The two South African sides have added a great deal to the P14 this season, a different style of rugby, different interpretation. It has definitely freshened things up.

While we are becoming more running in the PRO 14 the addition of the two South African teams who ran the most in Super Rugby (From SA), it ups what is expected of a running team as Cheetahs have raised the game. They are adjusting to our physical game (which surprises me how weak they are this year) but hope we can marry the two rather than bring them down to our not so running rugby.

Brendan wrote:

Intotouch wrote:I read that Italy now have reduced the number of their academies from around 7 to 4 last year. Unless these four are taking in the same number of youngsters this suggests a regression rather than a progression and a lessening of depth of players in Italy in the future. It suggests as well a union that is having to make cut backs. So I'm worried for the future for Italian rugby.

I couldn't find anything (but not great on internet).  I found an article on ESPN that compared the Super 10 to the standard of National 1 in England and stays the jump up to PRO 14 is hard.  It says underage is growing really well and most clubs have bigger underage then a few years ago.

I know they also got in a renowned guy for the academies so if he did reduce it to 4 it was probably with good reason.

It may be an upgrade. If you have 40 players who you think could realistically become pro players and they have split them into 7 academies the standard is not going to be as high as say 35 across 4 (taking into account players dropping out with increased distance to train). As long as they can get them games and connect them with the amateur/semi pro level, it could be an upgrade.

Scotland are progressing with 4 and are starting a 6 team semi-pro league (as well as a deal with Stade Nicosie) to bridge the gap. Don't Ireland and Wales both have 4 (associated with the regions) and an amateur/semi pro level in between?

Hazel Sapling wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Intotouch wrote:I read that Italy now have reduced the number of their academies from around 7 to 4 last year. Unless these four are taking in the same number of youngsters this suggests a regression rather than a progression and a lessening of depth of players in Italy in the future. It suggests as well a union that is having to make cut backs. So I'm worried for the future for Italian rugby.

I couldn't find anything (but not great on internet).  I found an article on ESPN that compared the Super 10 to the standard of National 1 in England and stays the jump up to PRO 14 is hard.  It says underage is growing really well and most clubs have bigger underage then a few years ago.

I know they also got in a renowned guy for the academies so if he did reduce it to 4 it was probably with good reason.

It may be an upgrade. If you have 40 players who you think could realistically become pro players and they have split them into 7 academies the standard is not going to be as high as say 35 across 4 (taking into account players dropping out with increased distance to train). As long as they can get them games and connect them with the amateur/semi pro level, it could be an upgrade.

Scotland are progressing with 4 and are starting a 6 team semi-pro league (as well as a deal with Stade Nicosie) to bridge the gap. Don't Ireland and Wales both have 4 (associated with the regions) and an amateur/semi pro level in between?

Cardiff Blues have a north academy and a south academy, two of each under 18's and under 16's. They also have the combined, under 18's academy. So that is five academies all in one region. Ospreys have east and west academies for under 16's, they also have then an under 16's combined, I think, and they have the under 18's, so there's another four.

I know Dragons have an academy, but I do not know how they run theirs, but I am sure that some of the more learned Dragons supporters on here could help with that. Scarlets have east and west academies for the under 16's, and they then have an under 18's academy.

So here in Wales we work with more than just 4 academies.

From what I have read the Super 10 are acting as collectors for underage and then the academies are picking up the top players.

I think the number of players coming in isn't key but the standard of the competition internally. If the academies in Italy are functioning at a higher standard and getting games at the Super10 in their teens it is better than not progressing to Pro14 standard because they don't get up to the higher standard early enough

Italy also beat England at u18 this year. Not sure if that is first win v England at any level or what kind of team England put out but at that age this year they seem to be holding their own

LordDowlais wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Intotouch wrote:I read that Italy now have reduced the number of their academies from around 7 to 4 last year. Unless these four are taking in the same number of youngsters this suggests a regression rather than a progression and a lessening of depth of players in Italy in the future. It suggests as well a union that is having to make cut backs. So I'm worried for the future for Italian rugby.

I couldn't find anything (but not great on internet).  I found an article on ESPN that compared the Super 10 to the standard of National 1 in England and stays the jump up to PRO 14 is hard.  It says underage is growing really well and most clubs have bigger underage then a few years ago.

I know they also got in a renowned guy for the academies so if he did reduce it to 4 it was probably with good reason.

It may be an upgrade. If you have 40 players who you think could realistically become pro players and they have split them into 7 academies the standard is not going to be as high as say 35 across 4 (taking into account players dropping out with increased distance to train). As long as they can get them games and connect them with the amateur/semi pro level, it could be an upgrade.

Scotland are progressing with 4 and are starting a 6 team semi-pro league (as well as a deal with Stade Nicosie) to bridge the gap. Don't Ireland and Wales both have 4 (associated with the regions) and an amateur/semi pro level in between?

Cardiff Blues have a north academy and a south academy, two of each under 18's and under 16's. They also have the combined, under 18's academy. So that is five academies all in one region. Ospreys have east and west academies for under 16's, they also have then an under 16's combined, I think, and they have the under 18's, so there's another four.

I know Dragons have an academy, but I do not know how they run theirs, but I am sure that some of the more learned Dragons supporters on here could help with that. Scarlets have east and west academies for the under 16's, and they then have an under 18's academy.

So here in Wales we work with more than just 4 academies.

I think they’re referring to regional academies, not the age grade set-ups As in this one on the Cardiff Blues website http://www.cardiffblues.com/development/academy_squad.php.

Pot Hale wrote:I think they’re referring to regional academies, not the age grade set-ups As in this one on the Cardiff Blues website http://www.cardiffblues.com/development/academy_squad.php.

I have a family member, who has just gone through the Cardiff Blues North U16's set-up. He has now been promoted to the full U16's academy, trust me these academies are separate from each other. The next step for him is the U18's North.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think they’re referring to regional academies, not the age grade set-ups As in this one on the Cardiff Blues website http://www.cardiffblues.com/development/academy_squad.php.

I have a family member, who has just gone through the Cardiff Blues North U16's set-up. He has now been promoted to the full U16's academy, trust me these academies are separate from each other. The next step for him is the U18's North.

I'm sure you have. I'm sure they are. I wasn't saying otherwise.

Isn't academies not who looks after them and give them training not the location. Munster would have all the age grades and bases in Cork and Limerick (or use to for underage) but Munster has just one academy that takes in the best people and looks after there development and advancement. Yes there would be different coaches and input but all under one academy.

Anyway as I said earlier it isn't the number but the standard which at underage Italy are starting to hold their own like the win against England and last year's u20 WC

That is what I was thinking Brendan. The test is for sometime in the next 2 years for an Italian club to make the top 6 as talent feeds through.

The big conundrum for the Pro 14 are the South African clubs. The 4 main Super Rugby clubs are absorbing all the talent still and it almost seems that if you are going to play against European competition, why not get the higher pay and safer confines of a European club? Cheetahs have solid foundations to build on and will get the hang of the physicality required in a British winter. The Kings really need some support (is that side good enough to even be near the top at Currie Cup level?). Idk much about how factional SA's provincial unions are, but surely they can feed them more talented players.

Hazel Sapling wrote:That is what I was thinking Brendan. The test is for sometime in the next 2 years for an Italian club to make the top 6 as talent feeds through.

The big conundrum for the Pro 14 are the South African clubs. The 4 main Super Rugby clubs are absorbing all the talent still and it almost seems that if you are going to play against European competition, why not get the higher pay and safer confines of a European club? Cheetahs have solid foundations to build on and will get the hang of the physicality required in a British winter. The Kings really need some support (is that side good enough to even be near the top at Currie Cup level?). Idk much about how factional SA's provincial unions are, but surely they can feed them more talented players.

Problem right now with the two S.A. teams is that they are losing players who were leaving anyway due to the expected lack of playing time. Now that has been sorted the two teams can get players by "putting them in the shop Windows

We saw the same thing with Italy who are now keeping players after the exodus of 3 years ago

The Cheetahs are losing some of their best players but the Kings are building and they've improved greatly since the start of the season. I'd expect the Kings to be better next season while the Cheetahs will probably remain about the same.


Zebre were in a similar position to the Kings at the start of the season because they were unsure whether they would be kept on or dropped from the league. This time last year there was talk of them being dropped so they've done very well considering. I think both Italian sides will continue on their upward curve. Italian rugby has the numbers (of people playing the game) to be a lot stronger.


By the way here are all the transfers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2018–19_Pro14_transfers

The Cheetahs area is a strong rugby area but poor. They now have more money so should be able to keep a lot of them. The also have the challenge of Currie Cup but that is the strongest competition under any team in the Pro 14. If they use the Currie Cup competition to blood the youngsters they could have a really strong set up where they have players who will be able to step up each year like Leinster but they would be a higher standard.

Brendan wrote:The Cheetahs area is a strong rugby area but poor.  They now have more money so should be able to keep a lot of them.  The also have the challenge of Currie Cup but that is the strongest competition under any team in the Pro 14.  If they use the Currie Cup competition to blood the youngsters they could have a really strong set up where they have players who will be able to step up each year like Leinster but they would be a higher standard.

It'll be interesting to see if they get to keep their players or lose them to other South African sides.

profitius wrote:

Brendan wrote:The Cheetahs area is a strong rugby area but poor.  They now have more money so should be able to keep a lot of them.  The also have the challenge of Currie Cup but that is the strongest competition under any team in the Pro 14.  If they use the Currie Cup competition to blood the youngsters they could have a really strong set up where they have players who will be able to step up each year like Leinster but they would be a higher standard.

It'll be interesting to see if they get to keep their players or lose them to other South African sides.

The Cheetahs are losing players to other Pro14 sides, never mind the South African S14 teams.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think they’re referring to regional academies, not the age grade set-ups As in this one on the Cardiff Blues website http://www.cardiffblues.com/development/academy_squad.php.

I have a family member, who has just gone through the Cardiff Blues North U16's set-up. He has now been promoted to the full U16's academy, trust me these academies are separate from each other. The next step for him is the U18's North.

They are the age grade set ups. They are just separate age grade teams under the one pathway.

The "Academy" team carries the name for the group post-18, in its colloquial form. That's often where there is a misunderstanding of the terms as it is those post-18 who become professional players.

Phil, my family member who is in this setup has just come back from Holland, with the U16's North.

They do a lot of stuff separate from each other, it's all very confusing, but he is registered as being the the U16's "academy", after getting promoted from the U16's north "academy".

LordDowlais wrote:Phil, my family member who is in this setup has just come back from Holland, with the U16's North.

They do a lot of stuff separate from each other, it's all very confusing, but he is registered as being the the U16's "academy", after getting promoted from the U16's north "academy".

When did he go to Holland?

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Phil, my family member who is in this setup has just come back from Holland, with the U16's North.

They do a lot of stuff separate from each other, it's all very confusing, but he is registered as being the the U16's "academy", after getting promoted from the U16's north "academy".

When did he go to Holland?

Two weeks ago.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Phil, my family member who is in this setup has just come back from Holland, with the U16's North.

They do a lot of stuff separate from each other, it's all very confusing, but he is registered as being the the U16's "academy", after getting promoted from the U16's north "academy".

When did he go to Holland?

Two weeks ago.

Oh https://twitter.com/MarkGould7/status/979425086229893126

Strange how they didn't tweet about that tour. https://twitter.com/Blues_North_16s/with_replies

profitius wrote:I'd expect the Kings to be better next season while the Cheetahs will probably remain about the same.

Pretty sure Cheetahs will be worse next season, they are losing their coach as well.

So much for SA teams being able to retain their best players. Willemse Kings hooker and captain rumoured to be heading to Wasps as well.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Phil, my family member who is in this setup has just come back from Holland, with the U16's North.

They do a lot of stuff separate from each other, it's all very confusing, but he is registered as being the the U16's "academy", after getting promoted from the U16's north "academy".

When did he go to Holland?

Two weeks ago.

Oh https://twitter.com/MarkGould7/status/979425086229893126

Strange how they didn't tweet about that tour. https://twitter.com/Blues_North_16s/with_replies

Maybe he went on a trip to Richard Holland....

I'm sure Dowellais will be along shortly to clear up the confusion.

VinceWLB wrote:

profitius wrote:I'd expect the Kings to be better next season while the Cheetahs will probably remain about the same.

Pretty sure Cheetahs will be worse next season, they are losing their coach as well.

So much for SA teams being able to retain their best players. Willemse Kings hooker and captain rumoured to be heading to Wasps as well.

Like with Italy and the number of years (I think 3) that it took Treviso to get back the same goes for S.A.

Cheetahs have out performed expectation this year but should still be strong at home next year. A lot of the players who have left or are leaving would have signed at the end of Super Rugby when a lot of it was up in the air.

FFS, he went with Abercynon RFC the club he is affilliated with, go on you can check that as well if you like, part of the pathway you are always banging on about.

LordDowlais wrote:FFS, he went with Abercynon RFC the club he is affilliated with, go on you can check that as well if you like, part of the pathway you are always banging on about.

Goalposts........... moved!

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:FFS, he went with Abercynon RFC the club he is affilliated with, go on you can check that as well if you like, part of the pathway you are always banging on about.

Goalposts........... moved!

It was all to do with the north academy.

There some right d!cks on this forum.

FFS, why has this place always got to be like this ? No wonder we are losing members hand over fist on here.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:FFS, he went with Abercynon RFC the club he is affilliated with, go on you can check that as well if you like, part of the pathway you are always banging on about.

Goalposts........... moved!

It was all to do with the north academy.

There some right d!cks on this forum.

FFS, why has this place always got to be like this ? No wonder we are losing members hand over fist on here.

 

Wouldn’t change you for the world, LD! 

To answer your question though, people just like the truth. Not a version of it. You said the Blues U16 North Academy went to Holland. The records showed this to be untrue. But you’ve cleared this up now. Would have been much simpler to say he went to Holland with Abercynon RFC and then people wouldn’t have questioned it!

LordDowlais wrote:Phil, my family member who is in this setup has just come back from Holland, with the U16's North.

LordDowlais wrote:FFS, he went with Abercynon RFC the club he is affilliated with.

Spot the difference.

LordDowlais wrote:FFS, he went with Abercynon RFC the club he is affilliated with, go on you can check that as well if you like, part of the pathway you are always banging on about.

So he went with a club and not the Academy as you previously had claimed.

So, in fact, something happened that was very different from what you claimed.

LordDowlais wrote:
FFS, why has this place always got to be like this ? No wonder we are losing members hand over fist on here.

It wasn't the Academy, as you claimed.

Maybe you should write something accurate if you don't like being called out on the pure BS you write? That way, you'd stop moaning.