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RFU get their man - Englands new defence coach is?

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 04 Aug 2018, 11:52 pm

I know do you?

Welcome home.
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Post by alanmackie6 Sun 05 Aug 2018, 3:18 am

Rumour has it John Mitchell,a very successful Coach,not popular but good.Maybe he`s in line
for top job.If EJfails to avoid RFU ultimatum irony he was the only man to apply for job in
the first place.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 05 Aug 2018, 5:55 pm

It will be costly, he is under contract until the end of the 2019 season
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 22 Aug 2018, 9:40 am

Seems to be taking a long time to strike a deal, are the "skint" RFU baulking at the contract buy out price?
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 05 Sep 2018, 10:56 am

So no nearer to Gustard's replacement being named, yet we have lost even more of the coaching team in the last couple of weeks.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 05 Sep 2018, 11:58 am

'I know do you?' says Tighthead at the beginning of August...then adds the cryptic: Welcome Home.

Hmmmm... given the developments I'd guess that Tighthead heard that Andy Farrell was bagged and was going 'home'????  Only Tighthead himself will confirm or deny that was the name he was thinking of.

But the info in the last few weeks is that Farrell was approached and turned the offer down.  So - RFU don't get their man?  Or maybe Farrell will do a double agent on it and even after a hatful of denials, turn up in England kit over the next few months.  Stranger things have happened.  We wait.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:31 pm

Finally Tighthead gets his man. £200k compensation paid to secure a new defence coach, who has never done that job before.

I wish I could say unbelievable, but I can now believe anything from the laughing stock that is English rugby.

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Post by BamBam Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:40 pm

The people who've been made redundant will be pleased that £200k was found

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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:15 pm

BamBam wrote:The people who've been made redundant will be pleased that £200k was found

Well at least they know why the RFU can't afford them anymore

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:39 pm

"Jones suggested earlier this month Mitchell would be tasked with improving England's ability to turn defence into attack"

I didn't think we had an issue with turning defence into attack in SA anyway, we looked good in that area, it was the simple defending that let us down, it was rubbish throughout the 6N and in SA.

If the breakdown is considered turning D into A, then yes he is right, but we seem to have so many young jackelers at the moment I am not sure that that will be a problem if the reffing of the breakdown is the same as in the GP games.

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Post by hugehandoff Tue 18 Sep 2018, 6:06 pm

for once I think there is unanimous agreement that we are not inspired by this decision. yet another foreign coach who hardly deserves this based on his track record. What really annoyed me was reading that he is also the long term successor to Eddie when he steps down.

Fingers crossed that this works out and at least he looks a mean mother!

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Post by nathan Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:54 pm

He was defence coach for Woodward in the 90's. About all he's done

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Post by alanmackie6 Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:30 pm

Your joking i assume his CV is excellent including AB coach,in one year in RC he won back to
back matches putting 50 points on both SA and Aus AWAY.He coached the Golden Lions Curry
Cup side with Carlos Spencer,it is acknowledged his spade work.Laid the basis of the Lions
Super side and back bone of current Boks side.He`s a prickly customer not popular with
players but gets results.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 10:36 pm

hugehandoff wrote:for once I think there is unanimous agreement that we are not inspired by this decision. yet another foreign coach who hardly deserves this based on his track record. What really annoyed me was reading that he is also the long term successor to Eddie when he steps down.

Fingers crossed that this works out and at least he looks a mean mother!

Herr Starr

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Post by Cyril Tue 18 Sep 2018, 11:08 pm

Mitchell has a better record than Gatland or Schmidt in world terms. As has Jones.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 18 Sep 2018, 11:22 pm

I was reading the views of a few South African fans from the side he's just left and most are very dissapointed he's leaving. They say he's put so much of the plans down that are bringing the success now...and they want to see him continue.

And maybe he'll stop Jones from beasting the players too much in training...

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Post by alanmackie6 Tue 18 Sep 2018, 11:40 pm

Mitchells AB record played 28 won 24,drew 1 lost 3 then sacked because he did`nt win a RWC.
Only Graham Henry was given a second chance.

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Post by Cyril Wed 19 Sep 2018, 12:09 am

To be honest, Mitchell is just what we need again. Straight forward and honest. Good appointment (for however long it is).

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 19 Sep 2018, 8:33 am

nathan wrote:He was defence coach for Woodward in the 90's. About all he's done

Forwards coach (and a good one). Do not believe he has ever been a defence coach until now.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 19 Sep 2018, 10:28 am

Maybe he can help with the forwards aswell...

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed 19 Sep 2018, 12:42 pm

Will his main role be to coach Eddie to defend against all the flak he's receiving?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 19 Sep 2018, 12:56 pm

Just read on Sky Sports that Mitchell will not be based in England.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 19 Sep 2018, 1:06 pm

? Where will he be based? Brussels?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 19 Sep 2018, 1:42 pm

Will still be living in Durban, apparently.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 19 Sep 2018, 1:47 pm

He must have made that a condition of his taking the job. A long commute to your day job! - and I assume any England coaching role has little in the way of flexi-time, especially leading into the most important of years.

Wonder did he negotiate business or first class travel for the duration of his contract?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 19 Sep 2018, 1:56 pm

The farce of the England circus continues.

Post world Cup can we not just get Rob Baxter or some other English Coach to stop us being a laughing stock.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 19 Sep 2018, 2:03 pm

Oh I wouldn't be so pessimistic so early, Geordie. The thing might work great. It's just unusual to be based so far away from a big job like England defence coach, especially as I say, leading into 2019. But I don't think that will be a factor in whether or not he's an effective addition to the coaching team.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 19 Sep 2018, 2:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Will still be living in Durban, apparently.

It is odd but if he's settled there..

Similar time zone and most of the time when he will be having actual contact with the team everyone will be away from home.

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Post by Pie Sat 22 Sep 2018, 6:22 pm

I expect Eddie Jones is none too pleased about the new Head Coach getting the job before the RWC. I cant imagine Eddie would enjoy having a personality as big or bigger than himself in the spotlight.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 22 Sep 2018, 7:58 pm

Quite the conspiracy theory.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 22 Sep 2018, 8:30 pm

Mitchelss record with counter attacking is very good. And its probably good timing that the world cups so close as it doesnt give the players time to hate him as have others.

The points of interest will be how he gets on with Jones as second or less in charge as one, hes not used to that, and two, lost to Jones in the match that ultimately costing him his title, Mitchell thinking tgat he’d have had a good shot at the 2003 final given the closeness of the England NZ matches at the time.

Mitchells probably learnt a lot and had good initial runs with the Force and better with the Lions, influencing the way they still play today.

But ultimately, theyre both change masters and under Mitchell I can see England taking and maybe struggling to accept some risk taking when theyre asked to run everything back from sixty meters out.

Will be interesting.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 22 Sep 2018, 9:08 pm

How is that Taylor? I know you've said you know nothing of the nh game etc but even someone with limited views must know that englands backs have been stronger part of their team since the latter part of Lancaster s reign?

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Post by kingelderfield Sun 23 Sep 2018, 10:37 am

The V bros wingers with the the gouger at the back?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 23 Sep 2018, 10:48 am

Not sure I understand that at all either king.

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Post by kingelderfield Sun 23 Sep 2018, 11:22 am

Do you really think our backs "have been a stronger part of our game".
Since when?
Seriously, I'm not sure I understand that at all 7?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 23 Sep 2018, 11:26 am

Yeah since before the world cup. That's what made it so strange that Lancaster tried to move to a forward based game plan. I know they're not packed with wasps but our backline is lethal.

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Post by Taylorman Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:How is that Taylor? I know you've said you know nothing of the nh game etc but even someone with limited views must know that englands backs have been stronger part of their team since the latter part of Lancaster s reign?

Name one? The highest missed tackle counting Farrell perhaps. Which back is anywhere near a world best XV?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 Sep 2018, 8:02 am

Jees louise. You need to watch more rugby.

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 24 Sep 2018, 8:37 am

So I guess that JM is being lined up to take over from Eddie after the RWC?

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 24 Sep 2018, 8:58 am

Taylorman wrote:Name one? The highest missed tackle counting Farrell perhaps. Which back is anywhere near a world best XV?

Our backs have still been better than our forwards. Farrell, Watson and Daly were key members of the Lions team that shared the series with you, while Jonny May was far and away our best player in SA this summer.

If Mitchell was returning to us as Forwards coach looking to do what he did last time and turn the pack into what the Aussie press described as a bunch of white orcs I would be happy. As it is he is the defensive coach, a job he has never done. Maybe this job will incorporate breakdown work, but I doubt his remit will have anything to do with counterattacking (something I think you described as a strength of his earlier in the thread).

I hope he flew in for this weeks England training camp, rather than skyping from Durban.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 24 Sep 2018, 9:46 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:The farce of the England circus continues.

Post world Cup can we not just get Rob Baxter or some other English Coach to stop us being a laughing stock.

Because absolutely noone laughed at England under Robinson, Ashton, Johnson and Lancaster?

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Post by Taylorman Tue 25 Sep 2018, 6:36 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Name one? The highest missed tackle counting Farrell perhaps. Which back is anywhere near a world best XV?

Our backs have still been better than our forwards. Farrell, Watson and Daly were key members of the Lions team that shared the series with you, while Jonny May was far and away our best player in SA this summer.

If Mitchell was returning to us as Forwards coach looking to do what he did last time and turn the pack into what the Aussie press described as a bunch of white orcs I would be happy. As it is he is the defensive coach, a job he has never done. Maybe this job will incorporate breakdown work, but I doubt his remit will have anything to do with counterattacking (something I think you described as a strength of his earlier in the thread).

I hope he flew in for this weeks England training camp, rather than skyping from Durban.

I heard one of his briefs was to turn defence into attack. Theres no better way of doing that than counterattacking. Which, hes very familiar with, some saying he brought that to the ABs first.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 31 Oct 2019, 8:37 pm

Even if we lose on Saturday, I feel that I need to eat some humble pie. Since Mitchell started we have definitely seen a major upturn in performances.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 31 Oct 2019, 8:42 pm

Stands a great chance to be the next guy now surely. Think it's out of McCall, him and Borthwick in that order.
I think should we be fortunate to win on saturday Jones will go before the 6 ns perhaps with a supporting role for that tournament.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 31 Oct 2019, 8:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Even if we lose on Saturday, I feel that I need to eat some humble pie. Since Mitchell started we have definitely seen a major upturn in performances.

Worth bumping this to see how much Taylorman was slating England and talking about them running everything back from 60m. Couldnt be more wrong!

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Post by Guest Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:03 pm

Not the only one LT.

Who was TH thinking of?

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Post by Guest Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:07 pm

Also, England would be foolish to give it to Mitchell or Borthwick.

You made that mistake in 04. Ireland are about to make the same mistake with Farrell - though arguably they've already felt the effects of that, as the parallels between the teams he coached in 2015 and 2019 seem almost uncanny.

If EJ is hungry for another 4 years he should stay. If not, see out the season and hand over the ropes - but it needs to be a clean break.

Too much succession planning is scared of allow someone a bit of a bumpy entrance for the sake of a clean break and then success not long after.

You'd hamstring the next guy if you ask/make him be EJ's understudy for a year or whatever. Whoever is up to the job, just give it him when EJ is done: either of his own volition, or when they sense his heart isn't there.

Which might be next Monday.

But Borthwick and Mitchell? Neither looks suited to the top job, not yet anyway. If England want to capitalise on some players like Itoje, Underhill etc. peaking, you don't want to get it wrong by promoting the assistant and hoping for the best.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stands a great chance to be the next guy now surely. Think it's out of McCall, him and Borthwick in that order.
I think should we be fortunate to win on saturday Jones will go before the 6 ns perhaps with a supporting role for that tournament.

Mitchell spends half his time dialing in his work from the other side of the world. No question its working, but you have to ask yourself does he really want to move back over here full time?

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Post by Poorfour Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stands a great chance to be the next guy now surely. Think it's out of McCall, him and Borthwick in that order.
I think should we be fortunate to win on saturday Jones will go before the 6 ns perhaps with a supporting role for that tournament.

McCall (and Baxter, and any other club level coach) should be nowhere near the top job for England until he's done an RWC cycle as an international coach, either for a tier 2 nation, or as an assistant coach for England.

Woodward needed two goes to get it right, as did Henry and Eddie. Hansen served an apprenticeship under Henry (when Henry did get it right).

Meanwhile, Johnson and Lancaster both made bad mistakes at or in the prep for the RWC, having done pretty well in the usual run of things. Ashton (who didn't see a full cycle through with Woodward) nearly got there but lost the dressing room and his job.

I would say that either:
- We need a coach who has served that international apprenticeship
- OR we need to be prepared to stick with one coach for two RWC cycles
- OR we need the coach to have an experienced mentor throughout the whole of the next cycle.

The only conditions under which I'd be comfortable with McCall at this point would be if Eddie (or someone else with experience - Steve Hansen might be available) were contracted in a consultant role through the whole cycle.

As to whether Eddie will stick around that long, who knows? He might relish the challenge of retaining the RWC, which is something no other coach has achieved as head coach in both cycles.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:10 pm

Theres negatives and positives to anyone miaow. Obviously depends on who applies but both those guys would make the shortlist.

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