To haka or not to haka (again)

First topic message reminder :

The haka has popped up again in debate in New Zealand. A new book by Peter Bills appears to quote some former All Blacks saying the haka has become over-used and over-commercialised. There is some question over whether all those comments have been taken out of context but it has prompted dicussion of "haka fatigue". Some have suggested the haka should only be performed overseas, which apparently used to be the case.

Here's one article on the subject:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/all-blacks-haka-has-lost-its-mana-nz-legends-claim

In Japan the other day, the New Zealand womens softball team performed a haka to their Taiwanese opposition, who threw salt on the ground afterwards in response. The Kiwis thought was it was dirt, and a sign of disrespect, so they did the haka again. This was described as a "cultural misunderstanding".

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/106016553/official-warnings-issued-after-chinese-taipei-softballers-throw-salt-after-nz-white-sox-haka

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which people exactly maybe there was a statement? Do continue to change the subject though as we both now agree that England is the biggest draw.

Pff...whatever. If they are it aint cos of their quality of rugby. I mean name one great back...ever. Wilko...then? Hmmm....barrell already has scratch marks.

NH crowds love mediocrity in this game thats for sure. 60,000 will all cram in the fog and watch an 85 minute scrum and come away happy.

May or may not be true. We weren't talking quality but who can draw.

No 7&1/2 wrote:May or may not be true.  We weren't talking quality but who can draw.

Yea but that got boring very quickly, cos if its not based on wuality of performance then its a dynamic that makes it redundant. And yeah... its true.

I'd agree. Nh tend to be fans of the game with a few exceptions. Others prefer the glamour of the game and like following a winning team. We call them glory fans or plastics.

Taylor ...we'll pay through the nose to see anything if theres beer available, even a bunch of grown men dancing and gurning.

7.5, I know the clubs ‘own’ the players and that they’re run into the ground. Thankfully the RFU pays the clubs £200 million or so to gain access to the already fatigued English squad players so Eddie can absolutely destroy them. Careers have even been ended. It’s a brilliant strategy by the RFU. All that money put to good use. Meanwhile, grassroots staff are getting the axe and the woman’s game is in limbo.

Yup I like the system too. Good to see a partnership and not dictation.

Gooseberry wrote:Taylor ...we'll pay through the nose to see anything if theres beer available, even a bunch of grown men dancing and gurning.

We know, we know luvvie

Jeebers, didn’t know Mike Tindall got a nose job

Funnily enough he has.but that's not him. Yu need to watch more rugby ebop.

You sure? ok. Maybe I confused the guy with someone I’ve seen in the English front row.

It does demonstrate your knowledge. Helps people understand some of your comments.

To tell the truth, I didn't realise it was Big Phil Vickery either on first look.  The man looks quite suave after just retiring at the end of last season.  Good luck to him on the professional dance circuit.

7.5, can you list the benefits of the English system? The main one would be the number of SH players that find their way into the white jersey off the back of money-losing English clubs paying exorbitant and clearly unsustainable wages wouldn’t it?

To right. Bring them home.

Yeah, those kind of guys deserve to play for the white shirt. Any other benefits 7.5?

Nope. That'll do.

Fair enough, the strategy is clearly working

Yup.

Yeah, and when I say it’s working I mean it’s really really flipping working. England have had an amazing 2018 in some respects.

Yup it's all good.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

Repost for Taylorman - just in case you missed this question

I was explaining to ebop how youre another that doesnt get it. Pretty obvious really. We were both agreeing.

Taylorman wrote:As a rule its meant as both a challenge and mark of respect to the receivers, so a response is expected.

ebop wrote:The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Can you see that agreeing with the second statement is disagreeing with the first, or is contradiction something that I need to get?

I take it that your lack of response means you can't see any contradiction?

Fair enough - is reconciling contradictions the default Kiwi way?

No, just that as usual youve made it boring by being fussy. Trying to discuss respect for the haka with you will get nobody anywhere fast. Oh, we’re there already.

What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

I didn’t say the ABs should use their haka to disrespect teams. That’s the narrative you’re so desperately clinging to. There is nothing at all disrespectful about haka but rather the opposite. What I said was, if teams and unions or fans don’t want it in their own backyard...don’t do it. If people don’t see it for what it is and cry foul like you clearly do then just don’t do it. The ABs shouldn’t do it in Dublin because you think it’s gamemanship. No problem, don’t do it. Not worth the trouble or effort if you think it’s just gamesmanship. You don’t get it, probably never will, and that’s fine.

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe?

I think you’ll find Samoa, Tonga and Fiji for example are countries in their own right.

ebop wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe?

I think you’ll find Samoa, Tonga and Fiji for example are countries in their own right.

How many times have both sides performed the haka compared to the number of times it is performed by one side only?
(To make it easy for you, stick to rugby as it has probably never been performed by both sides in basketball or women's softball history.)

ebop wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe?

I think you’ll find Samoa, Tonga and Fiji for example are countries in their own right.

TGA, its unlikely youve done the haka, its unlikely youve experienced how shattered it can make you feel at the start of a game. I did several versions before matches and saw stars at the end of it. It certainly isnt a physical advantage over doing nothing because its the harsh vocals inside your head that can spin you out. The actions themselves are hardly demanding so again your ignorance and perception flows freely in this topic, something you selfishly see from your own persoective.

Thats why its pointless discussing it with you. You havent done your research, you see one side only and youre lightweight on anything on the topic anyway.

The haka has zero to do with getting an advantage before a match unless youre a gullible, uneducated fool.

So you carry on your silly moaning.

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

This.

There aren't Hakas in super rugby and NZ teams dominate. That's down to skills, which are carried into the Int team.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

No, we didnt say that Laurie. Its the auksters little need to make an issue out of it. Hes barking up a tree where hes the only one listening. Hes even brought up the revised Haka and has focussed on the negative elements and frankly, if he had seen that video you posted theres no way he could say that it did not have the violent mimes with the intense way the larger guy was interpreting the haka. Only in a haka would that performance not be intended to scare. If someone on the street was being confronted in that way by anything other than a haka the recipient would have every right to be concerned. And thats why it portrayed the love, respect and pride for the player who received it in absolute silence with respect.

Thats why aukster will never get it and will continue to focus in his perception and ignorance. In short he doesnt deserve an explanation because he is deliberately blind to its significance, by choice.

And its bigots that are lead by those sorts of choices.

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe?

I think you’ll find Samoa, Tonga and Fiji for example are countries in their own right.

TGA, its unlikely youve done the haka, its unlikely youve experienced how shattered it can make you feel at the start of a game. I did several versions before matches and saw stars at the end of it. It certainly isnt a physical advantage over doing nothing because its the harsh vocals inside your head that can spin you out. The actions themselves are hardly demanding so again your ignorance and perception flows freely in this topic, something you selfishly see from your own persoective.

Thats why its pointless discussing it with you. You havent done your research, you see one side only and youre lightweight on anything on the topic anyway.

The haka has zero to do with getting an advantage before a match unless youre a gullible, uneducated fool.

So you carry on your silly moaning.

So the haka is disadvantageous to the team as it leaves them shattered at the start of a game and spins their head out! In a world where most sporting teams are looking for ways to enhance their performance, why would the NZ Women’s Softball team or the Ottawa Redblacks embrace such a detrimental ritual?

“The actions themselves are hardly demanding” in relation to risking injury, but then a ‘warm-up’ is not intended to risk injury just get juices flowing, and surely is better than standing inactive in the cold?

“Ignorance and perception” are antonyms so how is it possible to be both ignorant and perceptive at the same time – is this another in the increasing list of contradictions that an outsider needs to reconcile to “get” the haka?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

Thanks Aucklandlaurie. Outside the realm of professional / international sport the element of respect seems to be a consistent theme. However is it respectful to perform a pre-match ritual knowing an opponent is instructed to do nothing but watch?

The haka is a point of differentiation between those that perform it and opponents who don’t, yet this inequality is tolerated by the governing bodies. If every team in the world containing one player with a trace of ancestral PI blood performed the haka before competing then that ubiquitousness would dilute its power to the level of irrelevance. Surely this is something to be avoided?

Neither is the haka the exclusive preserve of the All Blacks, but includes other Pacific Island rugby teams and increasingly other sports with PI representation. If there is no sporting advantage to be obtained why is it increasing in popularity?
http://www.nzedge.com/news/15-cricket-team-breaks-tradition/

Can I ask again, do you think it is fair that one competitor is allowed to perform a pre-match ritual, while the other is instructed to watch?

yappysnap wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

This.

There aren't Hakas in super rugby and NZ teams dominate. That's down to skills, which are carried into the Int team.

Agreed

Taylorman wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

No, we didnt say that Laurie. Its the auksters little need to make an issue out of it. Hes barking up a tree where hes the only one listening. Hes even brought up the revised Haka and has focussed on the negative elements and frankly, if he had seen that video you posted theres no way he could say that it did not have the violent mimes with the intense way the larger guy was interpreting the haka. Only in a haka would that performance not be intended to scare. If someone on the street was being confronted in that way by anything other than a haka the recipient would have every right to be concerned. And thats why it portrayed the love, respect and pride  for the player who received it in absolute silence with respect.

Thats why aukster will never get it and will continue to focus in his perception and ignorance. In short he doesnt deserve an explanation because he is deliberately blind to its significance, by choice.

And its bigots that are lead by those sorts of choices.

Laurie and everyone else is perfectly capable to read what was written and deciding for themselves.

In the next snippet of education highlighted - if the recipient is not "haka savvy" (not knowing intent), they would be scared? Across all sports that would cover the majority of opponents, so this latest contradiction is that scaring someone (who doesn't know) is actually showing respect. For those in the World on the outside of the PI cultural subset, such behaviour is so far removed from normal mores that perhaps some latitude should be granted when coming to terms with it?

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

Thanks Aucklandlaurie. Outside the realm of professional / international sport the element of respect seems to be a consistent theme. However is it respectful to perform a pre-match ritual knowing an opponent is instructed to do nothing but watch?

The haka is a point of differentiation between those that perform it and opponents who don’t, yet this inequality is tolerated by the governing bodies. If every team in the world containing one player with a trace of ancestral PI blood performed the haka before competing then that ubiquitousness would dilute its power to the level of irrelevance. Surely this is something to be avoided?

Neither is the haka the exclusive preserve of the All Blacks, but includes other Pacific Island rugby teams and increasingly other sports with PI representation. If there is no sporting advantage to be obtained why is it increasing in popularity?
http://www.nzedge.com/news/15-cricket-team-breaks-tradition/

Can I ask again, do you think it is fair that one competitor is allowed to perform a pre-match ritual, while the other is instructed to watch?

This question is where you appear to be letting yourself get derailed Aukster. It is an opportunity for a non European culture to be expressed and displayed. Rugby is unique in that it is the only sport in the World that has a high component of Pacific island/Polynesian players at its highest level(s). One of the reason for its high "popularity" (Maybe appreciation would be a more appororiate word) is that as the International exposure of the Haka increases, then more people around the World are introduced to it.

The All Blacks do not gain anything by doing the Haka, it is an expression of a culture that is vastly different to anything you have in Europe. Fairness has got nothing to do with it, if the opposition dont want to stand and watch the opposition do a Haka and go down the other end of the field and do a Campese and practise some up and unders I dont think you would see any of us Kiwis bat an eyelid, perhaps your beef is with WR?

My personal attitude is that the All Blacks should do the Haka after the game but only when they have won. But thats only one mans opinion, and also Aukster I think you are reading something into this issue that isnt there. EBop and Taylorman are only trying to educate you.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

Thanks Aucklandlaurie. Outside the realm of professional / international sport the element of respect seems to be a consistent theme. However is it respectful to perform a pre-match ritual knowing an opponent is instructed to do nothing but watch?

The haka is a point of differentiation between those that perform it and opponents who don’t, yet this inequality is tolerated by the governing bodies. If every team in the world containing one player with a trace of ancestral PI blood performed the haka before competing then that ubiquitousness would dilute its power to the level of irrelevance. Surely this is something to be avoided?

Neither is the haka the exclusive preserve of the All Blacks, but includes other Pacific Island rugby teams and increasingly other sports with PI representation. If there is no sporting advantage to be obtained why is it increasing in popularity?
http://www.nzedge.com/news/15-cricket-team-breaks-tradition/

Can I ask again, do you think it is fair that one competitor is allowed to perform a pre-match ritual, while the other is instructed to watch?

This question is where you appear to be letting yourself get derailed Aukster. It is an opportunity for a non European culture to be expressed and displayed. Rugby is unique in that it is the only sport in the World that has a high component of Pacific island/Polynesian players at its highest level(s). One of the reason for its high "popularity" (Maybe appreciation would be a more appororiate word) is that as the International exposure of the Haka increases, then more people around the World are introduced to it.

The All Blacks do not gain anything by doing the Haka, it is an expression of a culture that is vastly different to anything you have in Europe. Fairness has got nothing to do with it, if the opposition dont want to stand and watch the opposition do a Haka and go down the other end of the field and do a Campese and practise some up and unders I dont think you would see any of us Kiwis bat an eyelid, perhaps your beef is with WR?

My personal attitude is that the All Blacks should do the Haka after the game but only when they have won. But thats only one mans opinion, and also Aukster I think you are reading something into this issue that isnt there. EBop and Taylorman are only trying to educate you.

And Ive given up on that. This is someone who simply prefers the position ignorance. Seen it a thousand times before and will see it again. Thats how it works. Aint worth the time. Aukster can have his little semantics victory, thats whats more important to him anyway. He’ll never get it. His loss.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

Thanks Aucklandlaurie. Outside the realm of professional / international sport the element of respect seems to be a consistent theme. However is it respectful to perform a pre-match ritual knowing an opponent is instructed to do nothing but watch?

The haka is a point of differentiation between those that perform it and opponents who don’t, yet this inequality is tolerated by the governing bodies. If every team in the world containing one player with a trace of ancestral PI blood performed the haka before competing then that ubiquitousness would dilute its power to the level of irrelevance. Surely this is something to be avoided?

Neither is the haka the exclusive preserve of the All Blacks, but includes other Pacific Island rugby teams and increasingly other sports with PI representation. If there is no sporting advantage to be obtained why is it increasing in popularity?
http://www.nzedge.com/news/15-cricket-team-breaks-tradition/

Can I ask again, do you think it is fair that one competitor is allowed to perform a pre-match ritual, while the other is instructed to watch?

This question is where you appear to be letting yourself get derailed Aukster. It is an opportunity for a non European culture to be expressed and displayed. Rugby is unique in that it is the only sport in the World that has a high component of Pacific island/Polynesian players at its highest level(s). One of the reason for its high "popularity" (Maybe appreciation would be a more appororiate word) is that as the International exposure of the Haka increases, then more people around the World are introduced to it.

The All Blacks do not gain anything by doing the Haka, it is an expression of a culture that is vastly different to anything you have in Europe. Fairness has got nothing to do with it, if the opposition dont want to stand and watch the opposition do a Haka and go down the other end of the field and do a Campese and practise some up and unders I dont think you would see any of us Kiwis bat an eyelid, perhaps your beef is with WR?

My personal attitude is that the All Blacks should do the Haka after the game but only when they have won. But thats only one mans opinion, and also Aukster I think you are reading something into this issue that isnt there. EBop and Taylorman are only trying to educate you.

If all the PI/Polynesian teams (or individuals) "do not gain anything by doing the Haka", why do they do it at all? Presumably they do it because "it is an expression of a culture" they want to share - so saying they do not gain anything is incorrect.

You are correct in that my "beef" is with World Rugby and every sports governing body that not only tolerates but encourages inequality. Expecting egalitarianism in sport is of course naïve, and fairness indeed has got nothing to do with it, but that shouldn't preclude debate on the matter. The fact is the White Sox (who are Kiwis) did bat more than an eyelid to the response they got because they immediately did another more aggressive haka. It is disingenuous to suggest anything goes in a 'response' because that incident proves that is not the case.

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What is really hard to explain in English is the Hakas wider aspects of respect, challenge, battle and pride. I dont know if the link below will show overseas, but its a clip of a family Haka after the test last night.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12121940

No it doesn't play in this region - but there are enough examples on Youtube to show the haka is obviously a mark of respect when performed at a family landmark, wedding, funeral etc. Yet the family-orientated hakas often cited in these debates do not have the aggressive posturing and violent mimes used in sports arenas and which (to the outside world) look like gamesmanship. Why should one side be allowed to continue their physical and mental warm-up while the opposition have to passively observe? That unfairness is anathema to most sports fans.

When the All Blacks reserved the Kapa O Pango for the teams they thought deserved it and the milder Ka Mate against the rest, they were using the haka as a psychological weapon, rather than in deference to tradition. Based on the posts above, using the haka to disrespect the opposition is something ebop advocates with Taylorman in support - do you agree with them?

If Ebop and Taylorman are saying that the Haka is performed to disrespect the opposition then I would have to disagree with them, I saw a haka 3 weeks ago performed by the two teams prior to kick off, (it was an Auckland secondary schools fixture) I'm more than confident that disrespect had nothing to do with it, in fact I would suggest that the very opposite applied.

The All Blacks do not gain any advantage over their opposition by doing the Haka, The All Blacks success is the result of playing a higher standard of skillful Rugby at a faster pace for eighty minutes.

Thanks Aucklandlaurie. Outside the realm of professional / international sport the element of respect seems to be a consistent theme. However is it respectful to perform a pre-match ritual knowing an opponent is instructed to do nothing but watch?

The haka is a point of differentiation between those that perform it and opponents who don’t, yet this inequality is tolerated by the governing bodies. If every team in the world containing one player with a trace of ancestral PI blood performed the haka before competing then that ubiquitousness would dilute its power to the level of irrelevance. Surely this is something to be avoided?

Neither is the haka the exclusive preserve of the All Blacks, but includes other Pacific Island rugby teams and increasingly other sports with PI representation. If there is no sporting advantage to be obtained why is it increasing in popularity?
http://www.nzedge.com/news/15-cricket-team-breaks-tradition/

Can I ask again, do you think it is fair that one competitor is allowed to perform a pre-match ritual, while the other is instructed to watch?

This question is where you appear to be letting yourself get derailed Aukster. It is an opportunity for a non European culture to be expressed and displayed. Rugby is unique in that it is the only sport in the World that has a high component of Pacific island/Polynesian players at its highest level(s). One of the reason for its high "popularity" (Maybe appreciation would be a more appororiate word) is that as the International exposure of the Haka increases, then more people around the World are introduced to it.

The All Blacks do not gain anything by doing the Haka, it is an expression of a culture that is vastly different to anything you have in Europe. Fairness has got nothing to do with it, if the opposition dont want to stand and watch the opposition do a Haka and go down the other end of the field and do a Campese and practise some up and unders I dont think you would see any of us Kiwis bat an eyelid, perhaps your beef is with WR?

My personal attitude is that the All Blacks should do the Haka after the game but only when they have won. But thats only one mans opinion, and also Aukster I think you are reading something into this issue that isnt there. EBop and Taylorman are only trying to educate you.

If all the PI/Polynesian teams (or individuals) "do not gain anything by doing the Haka", why do they do it at all? Presumably they do it because "it is an expression of a culture" they want to share - so saying they do not gain anything is incorrect.

You are correct in that my "beef" is with World Rugby and every sports governing body that not only tolerates but encourages inequality. Expecting egalitarianism in sport is of course naïve, and fairness indeed has got nothing to do with it, but that shouldn't preclude debate on the matter. The fact is the White Sox (who are Kiwis) did bat more than an eyelid to the response they got because they immediately did another more aggressive haka. It is disingenuous to suggest anything goes in a 'response' because that incident proves that is not the case.

Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

The problem with the Haka is that its overused these days...every man and their dog are doing it. Every funeral, every do, every game...etc etc.

It used to be exhilarating to see it performed by Tana etc...but now its boring....

Maybe when England play the ABs, and you see the ABs haka, you think alright here we go, game on, let’s go boys. Or do you really think I’m bored I’ll go put the kettle on?

Generally just sing sweet low if you're there. If not I don't tend to watch the anthems etc but acknowledge it's a way to bring interest to the game.

What I would like to know is, if the people of New Zealand demand respect for the Haka, than why isn't any respect given back ?

I remember a few years back, New Zealand were playing Wales, the WRU respected the All Blacks right to perform the Haka, but they asked if they could do it before Wales sang their national anthem, as in Wales we see our anthem as something of pride, the Welsh are re-known for their singing, yet the All Blacks threw a massive hissy fit and said no as it was unfair and disrespectful blah, blah, blah....

We just wanted to sing the anthem in response, we wanted to get geed up for the game as well, but the All Blacks just had a tantrum and performed the haka in the changing room.

So is this it ? The Polynesian teams can perform theirs haka's, but nobody is allowed to respond to them ?

One year we did a stand off, and there was murders over that, apparently we were showing disrespect. The thing is, the haka must give a side performing it at least a tiny percent more motivation, how can it not ?

I would just like to see a team going up against it, being given the respect, and right, to respond how they see fit.

ebop wrote:Maybe when England play the ABs, and you see the ABs haka, you think alright here we go, game on, let’s go boys. Or do you really think I’m bored I’ll go put the kettle on?

In all honesty...I genuinely think oh god the haka...how boring. And a lot of my friends think the same way.

I say again...it used to be a great thing to watch...but its just so overused now..its tedious.

Taylorman wrote:And Ive given up on that. This is someone who simply prefers the position ignorance. Seen it a thousand times before and will see it again. Thats how it works. Aint worth the time. Aukster can have his little semantics victory, thats whats more important to him anyway. He’ll never get it. His loss.

Taylorman wrote:Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

In your previous post you had given up on educating me, now you've started again. The constant contradictions are difficult to understand, but I admire your commitment to education - as will every other passive reader in this class trying to understand these sporting anomalies.

Sports people often talk about how important 'routine' is when preparing for a game. They will do anything they can to reproduce that routine consistently, but if it is interrupted then they are forced out of their comfort zone. The instances of lost kit, bus diversions, no toilet paper in the changing rooms etc., are they just unfortunate coincidences or genuine attempts to gain advantage over an opponent?
Wouldn't it be great for the Tongan rugby team if they had a pre-match routine they could perform just before every game, to show their unity, cultural solidarity and get into 'the zone'? Wouldn't it also be great if their opponent had to abandon their own pre-match routine to watch the spectacle?

Tonga are allowed to always perform their pre-match ritual while at the same time WR insist some opponents abandon theirs.
(Puts hand up in air) - Please Sir, why is that not double standards?

LordDowlais wrote:What I would like to know is, if the people of New Zealand demand respect for the Haka, than why isn't any respect given back ?

I remember a few years back, New Zealand were playing Wales, the WRU respected the All Blacks right to perform the Haka, but they asked if they could do it before Wales sang their national anthem, as in Wales we see our anthem as something of pride, the Welsh are re-known for their singing, yet the All Blacks threw a massive hissy fit and said no as it was unfair and disrespectful blah, blah, blah....

We just wanted to sing the anthem in response, we wanted to get geed up for the game as well, but the All Blacks just had a tantrum and performed the haka in the changing room.

So is this it ? The Polynesian teams can perform theirs haka's, but nobody is allowed to respond to them ?

One year we did a stand off, and there was murders over that, apparently we were showing disrespect. The thing is, the haka must give a side performing it at least a tiny percent more motivation, how can it not ?

I would just like to see a team going up against it, being given the respect, and right, to respond how they see fit.

It's an interesting point about the National Anthems, where the home side always sing theirs just before the game... except of course when a haka has to be performed. Little wonder the ABs threw a tantrum as the haka trumps the host country anthem and changing their pre-match routine wouldn't be fair.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ebop wrote:Maybe when England play the ABs, and you see the ABs haka, you think alright here we go, game on, let’s go boys. Or do you really think I’m bored I’ll go put the kettle on?

In all honesty...I genuinely think oh god the haka...how boring. And a lot of my friends think the same way.

I say again...it used to be a great thing to watch...but its just so overused now..its tedious.

Fair enough  

Taylorman wrote:Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

I really enjoyed the haka Te Toiroa Tahuriorang's family performed. I also really enjoyed those school hakas that I think you once posted her before.

Even as an outsider to New Zealand, and Maori culture in particular, I can appreciate what is at stake. We all know what family means, however you choose to express it, and I know what it felt like to come of age.

I didn't start this thread so everyone could have a pop at New Zealand. I started it precisely because New Zealanders themselves were beginning to question its place in rugby, and professional sport in general. I haven't heard that before. Consequently, to take this thread into "NZ vs bigots" territory is avoiding the central question of why New Zealanders think the haka might not be appropriate.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

I really enjoyed the haka Te Toiroa Tahuriorang's family performed. I also really enjoyed those school hakas that I think you once posted her before.

Even as an outsider to New Zealand, and Maori culture in particular, I can appreciate what is at stake. We all know what family means, however you choose to express it, and I know what it felt like to come of age.

I didn't start this thread so everyone could have a pop at New Zealand. I started it precisely because New Zealanders themselves were beginning to question its place in rugby, and professional sport in general. I haven't heard that before. Consequently, to take this thread into "NZ vs bigots" territory is avoiding the central question of why New Zealanders think the haka might not be appropriate.

Perhaps, but thats not where Aukster was taking it. It was clearly a them vs NZ thing.