Yes, it's....Another Haka Thread!

[Cowshot]

A Maori Theatre Company is performing their version of Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida at the Globe. Now it's all well and good showing how Bill speaks across Time and Culture to what is innately human in all of us, but is it fair, I ask you, that they should start the performance with a Haka?

Will the audience be able to give a truly critical response to the show if they are stunned into submission for the first ten minutes? Should the audience respond with chorus of "Jerusalem" or link arms and advance on the stage?

Link to article below, for any expats feeling like a touch of home from home

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17769799

[Biltong]

Well at least everyone will pay attention after the Haka is performed.

[The Great Aukster]

So is the Haka deemed suitable for play acting?

If the Haka is just a performance for crowd entertainment perhaps the IRB should review their precious attitude to it and not give it any higher status than that afforded to the Royal Marines Band?

[Biltong]

Aukster, because some performing arts group uses it as their opener doesn't mean to suggest it is just merely for entertaining the crowd at a match.

Have you seriously never seen these threads before?

[sugarNspikes]

Have Adidas' lawyers been in touch yet? This appears to be a breach of copyright.

[chewed_mintie]

Have Adidas' lawyers been in touch yet? This appears to be a breach of copyright.

Do you seriously think there is only one haka in NZ?

[The Great Aukster]

Aukster, because some performing arts group uses it as their opener doesn't mean to suggest it is just merely for entertaining the crowd at a match.

Have you seriously never seen these threads before?

Sorry due to the numerous threads on this topic I was led to believe that the Haka had some sort of cultural significance. Are we expected to believe that it is part of the Maori culture that it be perfomed in a Shakespeare play? Considering Will pre-dated James Cook by about 150 years where is the cultural connection? The obvious answer is that there is indeed no significant connection and the Maori troupe performing this are using the Haka as purely a crowd pleasing device similar to the Royal Marines band coming out on the pitch before a rugby international. So either this Maori troupe are seriously out of order and should be told by the NZ government to cease forthwith or the Haka isn't the culturally sacrosanct entity that the ABs and the IRB would have us believe?

[sugarNspikes]

Have Adidas' lawyers been in touch yet? This appears to be a breach of copyright.

Do you seriously think there is only one haka in NZ?

Nah, but surely Adidas have them all listed by now.

[aucklandlaurie]

Sure, the Royal marine band may play prior to the commencement of a rugby International,however they dont actually contest the Rugby International.

I gather the maori theatre group that is performing the Haka at the Globe is also performing the play.

The crowd can sing "Jerusalem" or any other song they like,however they are not participating in the contest.therefore why would the IRB have any reason to become involved?

When the All Blacks perform the Haka,they are participants in the contest.

[sugarNspikes]

Maybe they could perform the Haka in the green room?

[Guest]

Don't the home nation's teams get a boost when they play the ABs at home and the 50,0000+ crowds rise as one to boo the ABs incessantly throughout the haka? I'd say that's a fair response and no doubt lets the home team know their fans are behind them. Just think of those poor liddle widdle ABs, just a thin line of resistance, putting themselves out there in the white hot cauldron of baying home fans.

I appreciate the home nation's crowd singing, that's a fact, but when I hear the lovely harmonies, it makes me want to go have a cup of Darjeeling and pull out my grandma's knitting needles. I hope that doesn't offend too much, just 'my' opinion

And, if you read the Maori Shakespeare article, you'd realise the play was an 'adaptation' based on Maori life. I'm no scholar, but it's the one where there was a seige on Troy. If you laid seige to a Maori pa in the 1800's, you'd probably be confronted with a haka, and much worse. So I'd say the haka was highly appropriate in this context. I doubt Shakespeare is turning in his grave over it. Heck, he may even be honored, although I'm sure this will be ridiculed by some. Why would the great man care about Maori performing his plays, and especially the haka! If this is your view, perhaps one's narrow mind needs expanding a smidgeon.

[Cowshot]

I think that for any NZ expat in London, going to see this might just hit the spot, which is why I posted it.

The rugby side of it has been done to death. It's here to stay and good fun and all credit to Buck Shelford for a very smart move. Like Mr Shakespeare, Shelford was a genius of his type, and like the Bard, probably didn't know how far his effort would go. 25 years and going strong in Rugby; 25,000 miles and 350 or so years for the Bard (when 2,500 to Israel was about the edge of the Universe...)

Troilus and Cressida is one of the least performed of Shakespeare's plays - there is very little in it that gets to a modern English audience. Most interesting that the Maori have found something there which resonates.

That the play is an adaptation really doesn't matter - every performance is an adaptation (True of Rugby too! <laugh>)

I'm starting to think the haka is a bit like the English use of the word "mate": How one should take it is almost entirely dependent on context, which makes it very difficult for people of another culture know how to react.

I love the haka. But I still think we should present the lead singer with a bunch of flowers at the end of it.

[Guest]

Whoops, went off on one there

Having lived in London, you're right, seeing this play would certainly bring a tear to the eye. Followed by several post play pints and dissection at the walkabout. Actually never went there much myself.

Like the flowers idea, perhaps the English crowd at HQ could all throw roses at their feet, and eagerly await the encore. A darn good thrashing at rugby. Ok, sometimes at least

[Cowshot]

Whoops, went off on one there

Having lived in London, you're right, seeing this play would certainly bring a tear to the eye. Followed by several post play pints and dissection at the walkabout. Actually never went there much myself.

Like the flowers idea, perhaps the English crowd at HQ could all throw roses at their feet, and eagerly await the encore. A darn good thrashing at rugby. Ok, sometimes at least

No probs. But you'll have to wait for the thrashing until after the SA tour, and who knows what you'll be facing then? I'm hoping for anothr bunch of White Orcs, but we'll have to wait and see. I reckon we could beat the Boks, but I have no illusion that it's a hell of a big ask.

And your lads are another big ask after that.

It's a good time to be an England supporter!

[Effervescing Elephant]

Excellent! No one knows how to react to the characters in this one and no one knows how to react to a Haka on a rugby pitch. Works perfectly for me!

[sugarNspikes]

The Haka controversy really is much ado about nothing.

[Effervescing Elephant]

[Biltong]

It is a real shame those drums don't come with sound effects.

Darra, darra, DOOF.

[mystiroakey]

This is truely odd.

[Biltong]

This is truely odd.

What, that there is no sound effects for the drummer?

[Guest]

The Haka controversy really is much ado about nothing.

Oh behave you

[mystiroakey]

What next . Will we see the haka perfomed by hobbits in th new film the hobbit
.
Actually that is surely to close to home.

I am just wondering what the reaction would be like if they did a star wars play in new york with a bunch of morris dancers!

[Effervescing Elephant]

Dear God Mysti, i would pay good money to see that. Make it, make it now!!!!!

[Guest]

Would you clap or boo?

[Effervescing Elephant]

It can't be any worse than what Lucas is doing himself!!!

[The Great Aukster]

If the key element is that the haka is performed before some other event the participants are taking part in, then why isn't it done more often? Why don't the NZ cricket team do a haka? Or Kiri Te Kanawa!

Would the IRB afford the same 'haka' status to say the English Rugby team enacting Henry IV before the game? Would they have a dictat on suitable responses? Is applause OK or if it wasn't very good can the opposition team throw rotten cabbages?

I'm starting to think the haka is a bit like the English use of the word "mate": How one should take it is almost entirely dependent on context, which makes it very difficult for people of another culture know how to react.

... as in Ka mate?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

If the key element is that the haka is performed before some other event the participants are taking part in, then why isn't it done more often? Why don't the NZ cricket team do a haka? Or Kiri Te Kanawa!

Would the IRB afford the same 'haka' status to say the English Rugby team enacting Henry IV before the game? Would they have a dictat on suitable responses? Is applause OK or if it wasn't very good can the opposition team throw rotten cabbages?

I'm starting to think the haka is a bit like the English use of the word "mate": How one should take it is almost entirely dependent on context, which makes it very difficult for people of another culture know how to react.

... as in Ka mate?

Cricket doesn't do anthems either

There were calls in NZ for the NZ soccer team to perform a haka at the last FIFA world cup as the NZ team had quite a few Maori players in the squad , but FIFA bans all "pre-match displays". The Kiwis (RL), Tall Blacks (basketball) and Ice Blacks (ice hockey) all perform haka pre-match.

Back in February I went to a Christchurch earthquake memorial event where they screened a "one year on" documentary. The London Kapa Haka group performed a haka (performed by men, like most haka) and karanga (welcoming song, performed by women) as a greeting.

[The Great Aukster]

Cricket doesn't do anthems either

They do at the World Cup. Could the reason for the absence of a haka by the black caps, be that such an adrenaline rush might be bad for the team if they happen to be batting?
Conversely could the reason why all those other teams perform it, be that they gain some advantage over the opposition by doing so?

[Effervescing Elephant]

Probably coz you'd look a bit daft doing it in your jim-jams.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Cricket doesn't do anthems either

They do at the World Cup. Could the reason for the absence of a haka by the black caps, be that such an adrenaline rush might be bad for the team if they happen to be batting?
Conversely could the reason why all those other teams perform it, be that they gain some advantage over the opposition by doing so?

It's a lot more prosaic I think. Cricket isn't a sport that's wildly popular with Maori - Adam Parore was the first Maori test cricketer, and he debuted in the early '90s*. In NZ cricket's heartland is Christchurch, with its stronger ties to "Blighty".



*I think Parore was also the first Maori to climb Everest.

[Guest]

Would the IRB afford the same 'haka' status to say the English Rugby team enacting Henry IV before the game?

Probably not, too heavy, Monty Python perhaps

Such a rich history and all I ever hear is reference to morris dancing as a counter. Come on, you can do better than that can't ya? How about all that tin you guys used to kick about in when you were conquering the world?

[mystiroakey]

EBOP i dont think you get it- the sport it self is our history!!- do you suggest us playing a game of rugby before the game of rugby!

the actual game is ours.

we use morris dancing because it is an embarrasing dance - we compare that to the haka- because in essence that is what it is and nothing to do with the sport!

[Guest]

Nah, I get it. Maybe you're upset that these colonial upstarts have the temerity to change what, in your view, is what the game is, and what it should involve. Heck, you guys invented it (and thanks for that), why should you have to sit through 2 minutes of 'nonsense' when we should just get on with it.

I agree that morris dancing is a silly dance (each to their own), but has nothing to do with laying down a challenge. Rather it was the englishman's opportunity to prance about with handkerchiefs in his liesure time. The haka is not a silly dance. Many think, including myself, it adds spice to a game played by men about to do battle. I think you'll find both teams get something out of it, and if that leads to a better game and adrenalin flowing through the body right from the get go, why is that a bad thing?

For mine, I'd be happier if we scraped our national anthem and just performed the haka. Many kiwis identify more with the haka than some silly anthem written by an Irishman in 1870 (Wikipedia). Other teams could do what they liked when accepting the haka. I have no problem with teams disrespecting it, it's their call, but respect is earnt in many ways, and respect for ones culture is a good starting point.

[Cowshot]

Would the IRB afford the same 'haka' status to say the English Rugby team enacting Henry IV before the game?

Probably not, too heavy, Monty Python perhaps

Such a rich history and all I ever hear is reference to morris dancing as a counter. Come on, you can do better than that can't ya? How about all that tin you guys used to kick about in when you were conquering the world?

Chuckle. One suggestion I've heard as a traditional British counter to the Haka: Volley fire.

I remember Adam Parore. Fine cricketer. Didn't know about the Everest bit.

we use morris dancing because it is an embarrasing dance - we compare that to the haka- because in essence that is what it is and nothing to do with the sport!

I'm sure I remember reading that Morris Dancing started out as combat training for the quarterstaff, and sort of imagining rugby players doing a morris dance with quarterstaffs and a bit of attitude and it might be a fairly intimidating sight. Chuckle. Certainly be interesting to see!

[ChequeredJersey]

British Swordsdance as an equivalent? The military stuff at the likes of the Tattoo (spelling?) is fantastic

[ChequeredJersey]

Oh, and any excuse to sing Jerusalem or the 2 Fatherlands should be taken up

[Guest]

I reckon your guys singing is awesome. I spoke earlier that it makes me want to grab a cuppa, but that's not entirely correct. It actually sends shivers down the spine and I'm sure it lifts your team a heap. I think best to leave the haka to us and we leave the singing to you. What works, works. Any changes from now, especially in the pro era, may just seem a little, well awkward and contrived.

So unfortunately, this'll mean we won't get to see Hartley flirting with a handkerchief

[mystiroakey]

so then what is the haka today?

a challenge(originally it was)
a national anthem for the mouri population of NZ(it has become this)
a brand synonymous with rugby(the reason why it is tolerated)

EBOP i suggest that the kiwis re write an anthem that incopraters the diversity of the NZ population... maybe you could sing and dance at the same time.

If england ever displayed a haka type pre ceromony they/we would be seen as being racist.

[chewed_mintie]

EBOP i suggest that the kiwis re write an anthem that incopraters the diversity of the NZ population... maybe you could sing and dance at the same time

You'll note we already sing our anthem in two languages; Maori first and then English

[Biltong]

I quite like the Maori version of your anthem. That and the french one.

[mystiroakey]

So in effect you have 3 anthems then!!

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

So in effect you have 3 anthems then!!

Four if you count GSTQ (legally it's still one of NZ's official anthems)

As far as volley fire goes, the Maori figured out a counter to that too. Trenches

[mystiroakey]

Can you just sing the 4 then . and england can just forget about anthems completely.


how about sporting events become the below

other cultures doing what they do on the side lines(like cheer leaders)- whist england a take on england b

[Guest]

whist england a take on england b

Well that wouldn't be much of a spectacle now would it.

And if we allowed you guys to volley musket pellets at the haka, what's to stop the Russians wheeling out scud missiles. No, I think volleying is not the answer to solve the haka problem unfortunately.

[mystiroakey]

There is no haka problem. Its just amusing and bemusing

[beshocked]

Why not just allow the opposition to oppose the Haka however they see fit?

If the crowd want to sing Jerusalem why not?

[chewed_mintie]

Why not just allow the opposition to oppose the Haka however they see fit?

If the crowd want to sing Jerusalem why not?

Who is stopping them from doing that? Better have a word with your overlords at 'HQ'.

Last time I was at Twickers I seem to recall a bellowing rendition of 'Swing low...' while NZ did the haka. Didn't see any of my kiwi compatriots complaining either.

[mystiroakey]

the problem isnt the haka- its the IRB's overzealous stance on it.

[chewed_mintie]

the problem isnt the haka- its the IRB's overzealous stance on it.

Bingo!

[eirebilly]

I love the Haka and long may it continue

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