Yes, it's....Another Haka Thread!

[Cowshot]

First topic message reminder :

A Maori Theatre Company is performing their version of Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida at the Globe. Now it's all well and good showing how Bill speaks across Time and Culture to what is innately human in all of us, but is it fair, I ask you, that they should start the performance with a Haka?

Will the audience be able to give a truly critical response to the show if they are stunned into submission for the first ten minutes? Should the audience respond with chorus of "Jerusalem" or link arms and advance on the stage?

Link to article below, for any expats feeling like a touch of home from home

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17769799

[mystiroakey]

yeah it cracks me up. But let other nations ridicule it or should i be more PC and say challenge it as much as they want

[Guest]

Ridicule? Seems an odd choice of words. Maybe as a fan, you like to ridicule it, and that's what you do. But I doubt opposing players feel the same as you, they are adults after all. What are you thinking, pulling faces? Perhaps a row of brown eyes?

[mystiroakey]

I think many oppsoing team/fanss have ridiculed it- like singing over it is mocking it

[Biltong]

I haven't seen that happen in SA, we love and respect it.

[chewed_mintie]

I think many oppsoing team/fanss have ridiculed it- like singing over it is mocking it

That isn't ridiculing it at all.....turning up your kilt would be but singing? Morris dancing WOULD be mocking it (because let's face it that IS pathetic). If your singing God Save the Queen, then that certainly is not mocking it

[Guest]

I think many oppsoing team/fanss have ridiculed it- like singing over it is mocking it

Exactly, so why the fuss? I'd say that's a big response, perhaps lacks respect for what the haka signifies, but hey, it's your town you do what you want.

The IRB aren't getting on stadium PA systems calling for hush while the ABs perform their silly little dance are they.

McCaw doesn't complain in the after match speech that he couldn't hear himself do the haka does he, nup. Sing and boo to your wee heart's content, no one is complaining and it sets the scene just right

[mystiroakey]

how is morris dancing any less pathetic than doing a haka.

Both had significant purpose in there time.. Its just morris dancing is thankfully stuck in the past!

Of course players and fans have ridiculed the haka- there draw attention away from it. It could be seen as disrespcetful.. and many kiwis have voiced they opinions that huddles, singing over etc etc is disrespectfull

[mystiroakey]

I think many oppsoing team/fanss have ridiculed it- like singing over it is mocking it

Exactly, so why the fuss? I'd say that's a big response, perhaps lacks respect for what the haka signifies, but hey, it's your town you do what you want.

The IRB aren't getting on stadium PA systems calling for hush while the ABs perform their silly little dance are they.

McCaw doesn't complain in the after match speech that he couldn't hear himself do the haka does he, nup. Sing and boo to your wee heart's content, no one is complaining and it sets the scene just right

i am not complaining at all- i find it funny (especially when it is challenged) - i dont like the IRB's protection of it

[gregortree]

We English (real rugby fans that is) love the Haka,a brilliant piece of rugby tradition. We receive it with full enjoyment & respect.
GLOBE ?
A btw, but we are going to see Henry V at The Globe in August. I suppose we could start by offering French tourists the chance to jump up on the stage and give a rendition the Marseillaise just before the Prologue ?

[eirebilly]

I have been fortunate in my life to actually stand over from a HAKA. Its actually very captivating and quite intimidating to be honest.
It commanded respect from me thats for sure

[mystiroakey]

We English (real rugby fans that is) love the Haka,a brilliant piece of rugby tradition. We receive it with full enjoyment & respect.
GLOBE ?
A btw, but we are going to see Henry V at The Globe in August. I suppose we could start by offering French tourists the chance to jump up on the stage and give a rendition the Marseillaise just before the Prologue ?

You are casting ignorant aspersions there pal. and it is not a rugby tradition.

[gregortree]

Mystir,
Not sure i get you, how is the Haka not part of (NZ) rugby tradition ?

[RubyGuby]

The Haka remains one of the greatest spectacles in rugby and world sport in my opinion - I would ask my team to face it, respect it's traditions and history and then generously and respectfully applaud at the end of the Haka.

Following that, lets get down to the business end of why we are here

[Biltong]

I don't get the issue with the Haka, ever since I can remember the Haka was special, in my eyes a tradition that is unique to the pacific island nations (I include NZ here) and although the smaller island's Hakas doesn't fill me with the same awe as the All Black one, it is still all good.

[mystiroakey]

Mystir,
Not sure i get you, how is the Haka not part of (NZ) rugby tradition ?

Its a maori tradition- it happens in many sports and even this shakespeare play!!- it has nothing to do with rugby at all, it has now been attached to rugby because NZ are so good at the game and are a global draw! This is now being protected by the IRB and challenges are being fined....

Its ludicrous

[Effervescing Elephant]

I think it was New Zealand Tonga in the RWC where you had the Haka answered by the Tongan equivalent (don't want to cause any offence by calling it a haka!). Was fantastic theatre and really set the scene. Couldn't help having a cheeky thought that it would've been even better if the Ref and ARs had done something as well!

[mystiroakey]

Carpe deem you bring up a good point. The tongan nations also do the haka. but you have in your own mind assoicted the thing with NZ rugby. that is the problem and it is a worldwide ignorance

[XR]

Opposing teams should get in a line and face the haka...and then respond with the hokey cokey

[Biltong]

Blues, they could do that, but they would look rather silly doing the whilst the Haka is being performed on the other side of the halfway line.

[mystiroakey]

why should they GC?

[Guest]

Opposing teams should get in a line and face the haka...and then respond with the hokey cokey

That'd be hilarious, albeit a bit childish. I'd pay good money to see the outcome of that game.

[Guest]

Carpe deem you bring up a good point. The tongan nations also do the haka. but you have in your own mind assoicted the thing with NZ rugby. that is the problem and it is a worldwide ignorance

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just use the word 'ignorance' without any sense of irony?

[gregortree]

Mystir
thanks. Yes, I do understand its older origins, but it has also been a (welcome) part of NZ rugby tradition for longer than I have followed the game - so a long time in other words. Not as old as the Maori people of course... but for as long as NZ have ever toured ? I would be against any disrespect shown. True rugby fans accept, respect, enjoy. This talk of IRB sanctions etc etc, well waaay over the top, and a sad reflection on some 'fans'.

[mystiroakey]

I am all for respecting other cultures,

However I find it very hard to respect something that seems to only be in existance for branding effect, and due to that the HAKA is being misinterpreted for what it really is. Its like rewriting history to brand rugby union.

i think the challenge aspect of the HAKA is brilliant, i dont want to see these fines dished out. what next- points taken off teams- Is the latest france fine gonna stop challenges alltogether..

that will be very boring and then i will really start to resent the HAKA- not because of the HAKA but because of the IRB

[Biltong]

Mystir the Haka never started out as a branding or marketing tool, it is the modern professional rugby Guru's that uses it as that. You can't blame the Haka and it's traditions for that.

[mystiroakey]

bilt i think your missunderstanding my point.

It was quite clear.

[RubyGuby]

If it was clear he wouldn't have missed it

[mystiroakey]

When have i ever blamed the haka and its traditions?

[eirebilly]

These conversations nearly go in the same circles as a Munster v Lainster thread

[Guest]

These conversations nearly go in the same circles as a Munster v Lainster thread

Oh no! We're trapped in an infinite loop, ruuuuun!!!!

[Biltong]

you can run, but you can't hide.


















You'll be back.

[eirebilly]

I could always mention, Earles at centre

Seriously though, i dont get the negativity towards the HAKA. Whatever its origins (of which involve many cultures) it has become a part of All Back rugby tradition as well as Tonga, Samoa and Fiji. Long may it continue

[gregortree]

In this case the branding gurus should bring us the Morris Dance, Scotland = Sworddance, Ireland = Riverdance, Wales the Treorchy Male Voice Choir, and for France a recital from JP Sartre. I think the ABs would have trouble coping after that.

[mystiroakey]

yeah the infinite loop is normally me on one side- various others on the other- and eirebilly stating that he likes it ..

Do you think its wrong of the IRB to fine frances chalenge billy.

This will get us out of the loop?

are you willing to try

[sugarNspikes]

We should do all we can to preserve quaint old traditions like jam making.

[eirebilly]

If any of you ever get the chance to go to New Zealand, visit a Maori traditional place. The food (hungi?), the show and the hospitality is something to absorb. I loved every second of it and even had a few HAKA lessons. Damn near breaks knees

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

If any of you ever get the chance to go to New Zealand, visit a Maori traditional place. The food (hungi?), the show and the hospitality is something to absorb. I loved every second of it and even had a few HAKA lessons. Damn near breaks knees

"hungi" isn't far off the pronciation, but it's spelt "hangi" - the core Maori vowel sounds are ah (a), eeah (e), ee (i), aw (o), ooh (u))

Learning haka properly involves multitasking - you have to remember the words and the actions, and stamp in time. Which if you're as rhythmically challenged as I am is hard.

PS, mystir, most NZers thought fining the French in the final was plain daft, and the ABs camp said so at the time.

[gregortree]

LOL, looks like the Haka 'mocking' controvery has been running for longer than any of us has been around:
(wiki)
"The All Blacks perform a haka (Māori challenge) before each international match. The haka has been closely associated with New Zealand rugby ever since a tour of New South Wales in 1884. The New Zealand native team that toured Britain in 1888/89 used Ake Ake Kia Kaha and the 1903 team in Australia used a mocking haka, Tupoto koe, Kangaru!.The 1905 All Blacks began the tradition of using Ka Mate and by 1914 this was firmly established as part of New Zealand rugby. The 1924 All Blacks used a specially composed haka Kia Whaka-ngawari, but later All Blacks reverted back to Ka Mate."
Not part of rugby tradition eh ?

[eirebilly]

Its developed into an AB rugby tradition over the years, to say it hasnt is not right.

[gregortree]

I love the 'Kangaru' version c1903. It reads (in wiki) as though the ABs were taking a humourous pop at Ausssie culture over 100 years ago. Got to love shared rugby legends and culture.

[Comfort]

I hate the sanctions the IRB have imposed against teams "disrespecting" the Haka, but its been the IRB, not the NZRFU or New Zealanders themselves who have complained and imposed those sanctions.

I like the Haka, I understand it has special meaning to the people who perform it/native supporters and I enjoy the theatre of it. I just wish the IRB would stop getting so uptight and touchy about any responses to it. That and Ma'a Nonu having a little cry every now and then

Thats about my only thoughts on the Haka to be fair....

[mystiroakey]

I love the 'Kangaru' version c1903. It reads (in wiki) as though the ABs were taking a humourous pop at Ausssie culture over 100 years ago. Got to love shared rugby legends and culture.

Ok george - the haka is a part of the history of rugby i admit that, however why is the challenge against the haka or the 'mocking' not seen as being of equal importance.

[majesticimperialman]

Surely if the HAKA is to keep being performed by the Abs, then surely the team the Abs are playing, should be able to challenge them.

After all the HAKA is realy like a call to arms, a challenge to the other team, it is like saying ( this is war ) sand in a war the other team have a right to fight back(respond) to the HAKA.

And all this fineing other teams for making a challenge is absolutely bonkers.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Celebrating cultural history with pride and dignity?

Spoiler:

or a cheap cash in that reinforces ideas of the noble savage and racial differentiation?


Yes you too can pay to see Freddie Tuilagi perform his "unique tribal dance" ahead of the game. Includes meal and wine.

[anotherworldofpain]

The haka is powerful symbolism of a culture and I like it very much. It is some icon about strong and belonging and identity very much the maori people, and is so wide across the world knowing about this.

So check out a lot in London of advertising about shakespear and you will see the use this image of the haka a lot. It is so much power and grabbing the attention. It is saught after a lot by people in marketing because conveying a lot the emotion and evoke images in the mind.

Now also face the all blacks = big challenge. And introduce the team very much and call into the legacy.

So similar in shakespear performance = also big challenge. Especially watch difficult play in difficult language and also introduce the actors and immediate identity the setting.

To me seems very natural and good idea. I dont know what is always the problem so many small minds to look at it and become so upset. Maybe intimidated by this culture or reminds of too many painful loss!

For me I just respect and enjoy this amazing spectacle however the context I am looking.

Relax all friends and be calm in your mind.

[Biltong]

That is a mitey fine assessment anotherworldofpain.

[anotherworldofpain]

Celebrating cultural history with pride and dignity?

Spoiler:

or a cheap cash in that reinforces ideas of the noble savage and racial differentiation?


Yes you too can pay to see Freddie Tuilagi perform his "unique tribal dance" ahead of the game. Includes meal and wine.

Yes and you can go also on Stratford Avon and buying the shakespear tea towel. Or watch the beef eater on London tower or buy a souveneir leprachaun in dublin and a plastic dragon hat in Wales. Is make always some money out of exploit your own culture to the mass public. And for tourist is nice experience to know you are somewhere different and still in a comfort.

So pull out your ears and stand on your head and you could not make yourself look like more a fool with your thoughts peter seabiscuit wheeler.

[Guest]

Celebrating cultural history with pride and dignity?

Spoiler:

or a cheap cash in that reinforces ideas of the noble savage and racial differentiation?


Yes you too can pay to see Freddie Tuilagi perform his "unique tribal dance" ahead of the game. Includes meal and wine.

Yes and you can go also on Stratford Avon and buying the shakespear tea towel. Or watch the beef eater on London tower or buy a souveneir leprachaun in dublin and a plastic dragon hat in Wales. Is make always some money out of exploit your own culture to the mass public. And for tourist is nice experience to know you are somewhere different and still in a comfort.

So pull out your ears and stand on your head and you could not make yourself look like more a fool with your thoughts peter seabiscuit wheeler.

Who is this masked man? Is it a bird, is it a plane....

[gregortree]

Its is a challenge, in this case to a game of rugby. I love it. The only response necessary, is to accept, go out on the paddock and play some rugby. Anything else is flim flam.

[XR]

Blues, they could do that, but they would look rather silly doing the whilst the Haka is being performed on the other side of the halfway line.

Well then maybe change the hokey cokey to the Macarena? Play the song over the stadium speakers and get the fans involved, it's a great day out for all!

why should they GC?

To celebrate our cultural diversity

That'd be hilarious, albeit a bit childish. I'd pay good money to see the outcome of that game.

Jamie Roberts would be like:

"You put left leg in
Your left leg out
In, Out, In, Out
And- crap, that's me out for 6 weeks"

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