The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

Its a bit of an odd one because this really isnt a great SA side but they were really good today Faf in particular. It would have been a bigger win if NZs biggest fan boy wasnt reffing. Some terribly biased decisions from Owens. He totally ignored two NZ knock ons. Bizarre.

But he missed a few SA knock ons as well so I don’t think your narrative stacks up

ebop wrote:Retallick is a special player but no. The ABs don’t rely on a single player and nor do most teams. Jordie may see his stock fall after that horrible execution of a risky play. The ABs only woke up when the ‘depth’ came on. When our bench came on the game was all ABs but SA held on and deservedly so.

Fair enough point but I think the depth was really helped by Owens. He really was determined to let NZ back into the game.

ebop wrote:But he missed a few SA knock ons as well so I don’t think your narrative stacks up

I must have missed them too. NZs last try before half time Barrett was in touch and there was a knock on but Owens said play on.

Last 15 minutes Owens awarded soft pen after soft pen to NZ but ignored their KO and getting driven back in the scrum. All 50/50s went to NZ in the last 15. Over playing advantage etc.

Pretty poor on the whistle today for me. It was the same when the ABs won in Ireland in 03. If I was a Saffa id be pissed with Owens.

Man what a game. Hopefully Erasmus has brought some genuine backbone back to this team. Between them beaudy and Jordie cost a lot of points, but also had a hand in some.
Great pressure from the boks to force the level of errors they did. They had to battle a clearly ABbfavouring Owens and a yelliw.
The stuff great sides are made of. Rapt for SA rugby more than anything.
Retallick dies have a knack of missing the losses... no wait...

Great match, cant complain. Outplayed and makes the next few days weeks and minths much more interesting.

Go bokke!

Yeah I’m stoked for SA as well because they grinded out that win and deserved it. It meant a lot to the players, tears and hugs, awesome to see.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:But he missed a few SA knock ons as well so I don’t think your narrative stacks up

I must have missed them too. NZs last try before half time Barrett was in touch and there was a knock on but Owens said play on.

Last 15 minutes Owens awarded soft pen after soft pen to NZ but ignored their KO and getting driven back in the scrum. All 50/50s went to NZ in the last 15. Over playing advantage etc.

Pretty poor on the whistle today for me.

Yeah I thought Owens was an AB fan tonight. Makes the win doubly deserved. Huge effort considering their last two losses. No excuses. Beaten. Great to watch though. Been missing matches like that. We dont get em often.

Fair play Taylorman for the observation. It does spice the championship up a bit. SA are a bit of an enigma right now.

Well done SA, pity that people automatically point to Retallick being out as the reason.  They lost it, happens, better team management on the day won it.

SA were better and poor kicking cost them the ABs, When you know the opposition can/won't take 3pts it easier to give away penalties.

After the big win last year I wonder if the ABs were complacent while the boks came determined to not let it happen again, and caught them by suprise

That result may put a dent in NZs world ranking. Losing at home to the 7th ranked side. Ouch. Wonder when was the last time the 1st ranked side have lost at home to 7th. Never?

No doubt. SA probably won’t be 7th ranked anymore.

The ceremony part at the start of Aussie games is painful to watch. Need to tone it down a lot.

First things first....congratulations to South Africa, great result.

I haven't seen the game yet, however my initial thoughts are this result will do both teams a favour and what game it sets up for the return leg?

Of course they're much more than that ebop, but I do think Retallick is somewhat of talisman.

Well...we know what NZ will try to do now so the SA's will need to have a lot of oxygen in the tank for that next encounter as the ABs always go for the jugular of a team that had the temerity to make their last game competitive.  Pride on the line makes for a spectacle of muscle and bewildering speed.  The top 40 Reserve: Only-to-be-used-in-emergencies moves will be used now....in the first half

SecretFly wrote:Well...we know what NZ will try to do now so the SA's will need to have a lot of oxygen in the tank for that next encounter as the ABs always go for the jugular of a team that had the temerity to make their last game competitive.  Pride on the line makes for a spectacle of muscle and bewildering speed.  The top 40 Reserve: Only-to-be-used-in-emergencies moves will be used now....in the first half

Yea good thing is it livens things up all around. This was certainly more about how the Boks improved incredibly in the one week. They made 200 plus tackles to the ABs 50 odd. Unreal effort. Amazing what a shift in attitude and confidence can do. They were nothing like this last two weeks. Have thought for a while the bok issues are mainly their confidence. They have the players but today they turned on the attitude big time.

Sgt_Pooly, maybe it’s just my opinion, but in this squad there is not that much anxiety when a player gets injured. Sure, not having Retallick sees a drop in quality but there is belief that the replacement(s) will do the job. Scott Barrett is sound. Tuipulotu did some good stuff when he came on. The ABs didn’t lose because Retallick was injured. SA really wanted this win and they got it. Retallick has missed a few games and we’ve won in his absence. The issues for the ABs tonight were complacency, poor execution, poor decision making and poor kicking from the tee. And because SA played better than they have for a while and they believed in themselves. You saw their emotion afterwards? They wanted it and they got it.

Australia butchered the easiest try-scoring chance right at the last, and Argentina are victorious.

Two upsets for the day!

Congratulations Argies, awesome! So good to see them get wins against SA and Australia this year. Maybe they’ll roll the ABs at home for the trifecta?

ebop wrote:Sgt_Pooly, maybe it’s just my opinion, but in this squad there is not that much anxiety when a player gets injured. Sure, not having Retallick sees a drop in quality but there is belief that the replacement(s) will do the job. Scott Barrett is sound. Tuipulotu did some good stuff when he came on. The ABs didn’t lose because Retallick was injured. SA really wanted this win and they got it. Retallick has missed a few games and we’ve won in his absence. The issues for the ABs tonight were complacency, poor execution, poor decision making and poor kicking from the tee. And because SA played better than they have for a while and they believed in themselves. You saw their emotion afterwards? They wanted it and they got it.

Yep bout sums it up for me. NZ has some very good performances out there. Ben Smith for one, Cody Taylor proving yet again hes fast becoming the most versatile hooker. Beaudy missed four easyish shots at goal annoying slotting a sideline one down the middle.

Jordies poor decision cost a try and you could say with NZ attacking and clearly on top at the end, should have won if not for those factors.

But that would gloss over the SA effort which compared to any other test this year theyve played was off the chart. Thats what wanting it more looks like. Amazing turnaround. I guess we should be humbled by the fact our side can inspire that much of an effort. Look at them at the end. Tears galore.

Fantastic.

Hope so. They are looking really good in attack.

Its a much better championship this year

It was a similar performance to the first sa england test to be fair. They started slowly and then some very good back moves got themselves into the game.

I dont think there is much comparison really. England were poor. NZ were very good albeit helped a lot by very poor outing from Owens.

We were poor. Still should have beaten them. Same for nz today to be fair.

SA played a game tonight like Ireland played in Chicago. Both teams got a roll on and believed they could win in the moment and both did so by the skin of their teeth. Neither SA or Ireland were clearly the better team but both teams won because they dug deep into the well. That is the effort required. Most teams capitulate.

Ireland were the better team in usa. Missing rettalick as well in that game weren't they?

The ABs were knocking on the door in Chicago exactly like they were tonight. Coming from behind to snatch a victory. It wasn’t to be just like tonight. We were missing Retallick and Sam Whitelock. Played Kaino at lock with Scott Barrett on the bench.

Collapse2005 wrote:That result may put a dent in NZs world ranking. Losing at home to the 7th ranked side. Ouch. Wonder when was the last time the 1st ranked side have lost at home to 7th. Never?

Rankings only started in 2003. In February 2004, top ranked England lost to sixth place Ireland, which isn't too far off what just happened

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:That result may put a dent in NZs world ranking. Losing at home to the 7th ranked side. Ouch. Wonder when was the last time the 1st ranked side have lost at home to 7th. Never?

Rankings ony started in 2003. In February 2004, top ranked England lost to sixth place Ireland, which isn't too far off what just happened

Except seventh is a worst case scenario for SA, who have been rated no.1 , won a workd cup and beaten the ABs three times in the same year since the ratings began. Theyve been two or three most of the rest of that time. Ireland at six was about the norm with the three SH sides and England and France in there.

So SAs win is something they used to do a lot. Here the side managed to draw on that history if getting up on the ABs. Thats the difference.

Past sides not this one.

Taylorman wrote:So SAs win is something they used to do a lot. Here the side managed to draw on that history if getting up on the ABs. Thats the difference.

This was the 10th time in 44 games South Africa have won in New Zealand. When Ireland beat England in 2004, it was the 14th time out of 58 games in England. That's about the same rate for both teams. In both cases, the number one side was beaten by a team they are no strangers to losing to at home, no matter the ranking.

It would be more interesting if a top rated side ever dropped points to a lowly-ranked team who don't usually beat them at home. I don't think anyone would argue that the list for New Zeland is considerably longer than for other sides, especially since it includes teams who have never beaten the All Blacks.

ebop wrote:The ABs were knocking on the door in Chicago exactly like they were tonight. Coming from behind to snatch a victory. It wasn’t to be just like tonight. We were missing Retallick and Sam Whitelock. Played Kaino at lock with Scott Barrett on the bench.

In Chicago Ben Smith was awarded a try when half his leg was in touch. Ireland also scored the last try so it wasnt that close in reality.

ebop wrote:SA played a game tonight like Ireland played in Chicago. Both teams got a roll on and believed they could win in the moment and both did so by the skin of their teeth. Neither SA or Ireland were clearly the better team but both teams won because they dug deep into the well. That is the effort required. Most teams capitulate.

Ireland won by 11 points with a ludicrous Ben Smith non try awarded to NZ. Not really by the skin of Irelands teeth compared to this game.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:SA played a game tonight like Ireland played in Chicago. Both teams got a roll on and believed they could win in the moment and both did so by the skin of their teeth. Neither SA or Ireland were clearly the better team but both teams won because they dug deep into the well. That is the effort required. Most teams capitulate.

Ireland won by 11 points with a ludicrous Ben Smith non try awarded to NZ. Not really by the skin of Irelands teeth compared to this game.

Watch the game. The ABs were hammering Ireland in the last quarter  and were on course for snatching a victory and from memory there was an ABs fumble that sniffed out a go-ahead score. But Ireland scored a try and the rest is ‘revisionist’ history, a win by 11. A well deserved win that all kiwis agree. Ireland then went on to get towelled up in Dublin by the ABs as a repercussion. An apparently undeserved win by Irish accounts. You cling to that Chicago game like you do your mummy. It’s endearing but not unexpected given you finally got to sit at the big boys table and it’s something you clearly relish but occasional wins fade into insignificance over time.

Ireland are a great side.

Much better than England at least. They have a more cohesive team with more passion, better coach and better systems. There are few teams in history that are afforded the term ‘great’ 7.5, and the fact you said that, shows you don’t have a farkin clue, lol

Lol. Good one ebop.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Good one ebop.

Come on, defend your position

Or are you a little bit incompetent?

Ha. Lol.

Thought so, no farkin clue

You were being serious? Oh. Even more lols.

Lol, good one 7.5

There you go buddy.

I'm flattered you agree with me eventually!

Well done "DIE BOKKE" a great win on the day by the better team,lessons for NZ you`re
only as good as your last game,the last years game should have been remembered.
This RC is great for world rugby and this competion especially after the Argentina result
Englands RWC group looks even tougher.
On current form two losses for NZ in next two matchs is possible even probable then like
2009 a clean sweep [bar the BAA-BAA¬S}match taking them back to number one.
Australia may well spring a surprise and beat SA at home,Hansen has been hoist by
his own petard.
Maybe complancency not picking his best back three B .SMITH.iOANE.NAHOLO instead
of continueing to play with combinations.
Poor Captaincy with 3 other goal kickers why persist with BB?as to setting up a DG can
any one perform one?gone mostly since Merthens time.
It is all very well offloading blind to a support player but it also means your vulnerable
to a poacher.
A win v Argentina means another RC on points difference SA on the veldt now that
is a good one.
NZ learn from there defeats and winning at Ellis Park is still a very possible conclusion.

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:SA played a game tonight like Ireland played in Chicago. Both teams got a roll on and believed they could win in the moment and both did so by the skin of their teeth. Neither SA or Ireland were clearly the better team but both teams won because they dug deep into the well. That is the effort required. Most teams capitulate.

Ireland won by 11 points with a ludicrous Ben Smith non try awarded to NZ. Not really by the skin of Irelands teeth compared to this game.

Watch the game. The ABs were hammering Ireland in the last quarter  and were on course for snatching a victory and from memory there was an ABs fumble that sniffed out a go-ahead score. But Ireland scored a try and the rest is ‘revisionist’ history, a win by 11. A well deserved win that all kiwis agree. Ireland then went on to get towelled up in Dublin by the ABs as a repercussion. An apparently undeserved win by Irish accounts. You cling to that Chicago game like you do your mummy. It’s endearing but not unexpected given you finally got to sit at the big boys table and it’s something you clearly relish but occasional wins fade into insignificance over time.

Hammering? Ireland scored last and Smiths try was a joke he was so far in touch. Think you need to watch the game. Lol. An 11 point loss isnt a by the skin of the teeth loss especially when gifted a charity try from the ref and TMO. Sorry mate but NZ were playing catch up for the whole game and never at any point lead the game.

Haha you seem to be hurting over this one and today. Delighted for you.

Well Im not hurting, I learnt in 07 never to get too concerned when the ABs lose. That match taught me anything can happen. For one, as soon as the ABs lose, I immediately tune into the celebrations of the other side as I know how much it means to them, especially after seeing teams go down time and time again. Evenwhen that happens I realise they will celebrate one day.

The other thing is I let ‘the others’ worry about the loss. Other fans, Hansen and co for example... theyre kiwis, they have more of a vested interest in the loss. They get paid to get the results but also to take the hits. Im 100% behind the way they look after our side and I trust them to ‘handle this’.

That frees me up to congratulate the other side, to move on, and not spend endless time arguing with people on these boards or making excuses. Other fans spend a lot of time anguishing over losses. We dont, we are lucky in that way. So when its our turn to take it... take it. And move on knowing somewhere people are going into overtime towirkon the next game.

Sometimes I like these scenarios cos its fascinating wayching the lean machine kick into gear. The very next match will have a new approach and thats worth waiting for.

Meanwhike, enjoy it with the Boks and fans, they deserved it, and their team played very very well. Felt the same way after Chicago. This being a RC match, in NZ, is big as well. looking forward to ellis park, our worst away venue for win/loss.

What seemed strange today is that this is what the ABs are usually adept at, sneaking the win even at the last minute. I hope they won't put that down to Owens refereeing. Fact is the boks outplayed them out wide and the ABs didn't read that defending far too narrow. Whatever you think of the result its fabulous for rugby and the Boks have really announced themselves a year out from Japan, long may that continue. A little pressure on Hansen now to steady the shift an di expect a typical NZ response to whoever they play next!

Updated rankings should be:

1. New Zealand 92.52
2. Ireland 90.12
3. Wales 85.94
4. England 85.68
5. South Africa 83.35
6. Scotland 83.02
7. Australia 82.45
8. France 79.10
9. Argentina 79.02
10. Fiji 76.54