Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

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Continue here about the greatness of NH rugby players, the money the clubs have, the greatness of the SH rugby players and the leak to the north.

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Etc.

ebop wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:

Brendan wrote:The Irish overseas program is based on the concept that there are 70m Irish in the world.  As only 6m live on the island we need people to bring them back.  Many an Irish person was just unlucky to be born in stables and not on the promised land.

It would be unfair of us to not to go get them. David N is like Moses going all over the world telling the Unions to let our people go or damnation and financial ruin will be sent by Joe.

LET OUR PEOPLE GO

David Nucifora, another foreigner dragging Ireland rugby up by leading the ‘poacher squad’. That’s next level. The poached doing the poaching.

Well its the same as failed player and coach Pat Lam getting dumped from the Blues then ending up in Bristol hiring Blues players like theyre going out of fashion.

It’s pretty sad isn’t it. Ex-players and coaches going out of their way to ‘give back’ to the unions that made them by targeting and poaching players from that union. Sad. No respect for these people.

Yeah, and I bet the players feel really sad that they've been targeted and poached. FFS, they're not rhinos. This is professional life. This is their job. They're being head hunted and rewarded for their skills with good job offers. They're probably 'made up' to get the call. If a New Zealand business rang me and offered me a job with much better salary than I'm on now I'd probably go for it. If the guy doing the hiring at the NZ firm was Welsh I wouldn't be crying about the ethics of him poaching me over to NZ, and I doubt anyone else would either. People have skills and the world of work is literally world wide these days due to the ease of travel. People left the UK and Europe for a better life over the past few centuries. The reverse is now happening and they're leaving NZ for a better life in Europe. If you want to blame anything blame the sport for turning professional (something NZ pioneered I think. Certainly NZ were always talked about as turning professional way before everyone else )

The Oracle wrote:

ebop wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:

Brendan wrote:The Irish overseas program is based on the concept that there are 70m Irish in the world.  As only 6m live on the island we need people to bring them back.  Many an Irish person was just unlucky to be born in stables and not on the promised land.

It would be unfair of us to not to go get them. David N is like Moses going all over the world telling the Unions to let our people go or damnation and financial ruin will be sent by Joe.

LET OUR PEOPLE GO

David Nucifora, another foreigner dragging Ireland rugby up by leading the ‘poacher squad’. That’s next level. The poached doing the poaching.

Well its the same as failed player and coach Pat Lam getting dumped from the Blues then ending up in Bristol hiring Blues players like theyre going out of fashion.

It’s pretty sad isn’t it. Ex-players and coaches going out of their way to ‘give back’ to the unions that made them by targeting and poaching players from that union. Sad. No respect for these people.

Yeah, and I bet the players feel really sad that they've been targeted and poached.  FFS, they're not rhinos.  This is professional life.  This is their job.  They're being head hunted and rewarded for their skills with good job offers. They're probably 'made up' to get the call.  If a New Zealand business rang me and offered me a job with much better salary than I'm on now I'd probably go for it.  If the guy doing the hiring at the NZ firm was Welsh I wouldn't be crying about the ethics of him poaching me over to NZ, and I doubt anyone else would either.  People have skills and the world of work is literally world wide these days due to the ease of travel.  People left the UK and Europe for a better life over the past few centuries.  The reverse is now happening and they're leaving NZ for a better life in Europe.  If you want to blame anything blame the sport for turning professional (something NZ pioneered I think.  Certainly NZ were always talked about as turning professional way before everyone else    )

HAHA Pat Lam should be done for human trafficking.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I would never attempt to speak for someone else, especially someone I do not know personally so I do not know how Schmidt feels. He could feel Irish or he could feel Kiwi, that's his personal feelings.

All I can do is use my own personal experience and feelings at immigrating to another country. I did not go to Holland with the intention to represent Holland at anything internationally, I went for personal and family reasons. As such, I am still Irish with dual nationality. I have strong bonds with Holland and support them as my second team (being my second country) but Ireland is still my homeland and the country I associate myself with.

I see nothing wrong with that approach and as I have said, it is my personal opinion and feelings.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i-wanted-to-be-irish-without-being-plastic-joe-schmidt-on-his-irish-citizenship-31500571.html

Its kind of sad that a worthy citizen can become Irish by desire, by affiliation and by choice and yet his fellow Irishmen refuse to acknowledge him as Irish. There is something fundamentally wrong about that.

"I wanted to be Irish without being plastic" – Joe Schmidt on his Irish citizenship

I used to work with a guy originally from Ghana who became an Irish citizen about 10 years ago. On his first day people were asked in a meeting to introduce themselves and state where they were from. This dude went first and said his name was ____ from Ireland. A girl beside me laughed and said there is no way you are from Ireland. This is the same sort of sad backward thinking. This dude a fairly decent sort who works and has totally embraced his citizenship basically isn't going to be recognised as Irish by work colleagues as he looks a bit different. How sad is that? Same story for Schmidt it seems.

What is your point here? Are you insinuating that I do not consider him Irish or Kiwi?

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I would never attempt to speak for someone else, especially someone I do not know personally so I do not know how Schmidt feels. He could feel Irish or he could feel Kiwi, that's his personal feelings.

All I can do is use my own personal experience and feelings at immigrating to another country. I did not go to Holland with the intention to represent Holland at anything internationally, I went for personal and family reasons. As such, I am still Irish with dual nationality. I have strong bonds with Holland and support them as my second team (being my second country) but Ireland is still my homeland and the country I associate myself with.

I see nothing wrong with that approach and as I have said, it is my personal opinion and feelings.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i-wanted-to-be-irish-without-being-plastic-joe-schmidt-on-his-irish-citizenship-31500571.html

Its kind of sad that a worthy citizen can become Irish by desire, by affiliation and by choice and yet his fellow Irishmen refuse to acknowledge him as Irish. There is something fundamentally wrong about that.

"I wanted to be Irish without being plastic" – Joe Schmidt on his Irish citizenship

I used to work with a guy originally from Ghana who became an Irish citizen about 10 years ago. On his first day people were asked in a meeting to introduce themselves and state where they were from. This dude went first and said his name was ____ from Ireland. A girl beside me laughed and said there is no way you are from Ireland. This is the same sort of sad backward thinking. This dude a fairly decent sort who works and has totally embraced his citizenship basically isn't going to be recognised as Irish by work colleagues as he looks a bit different. How sad is that? Same story for Schmidt it seems.

What is your point here? Are you insinuating that I do not consider him Irish or Kiwi?

Well considering you consider Stander unethical for representing Ireland I can only assume you consider Schmidt unethical too? Or is it a different rule for coaches?

Do you consider Schmidt Irish?

Again you miss the point of what I am stating and make baseless assumptions.

I was and am against the reasons why Stander became Irish, not because he became Irish and I do not know how he feels and to be honest, its none of my business.

It doesn't matter what I think about Schmidt either as previously stated, I do not know him personally. I consider him as a dual national.

Do you really have so much difficulty in understanding this concept?

eirebilly wrote:Again you miss the point of what I am stating and make baseless assumptions.

I was and am against the reasons why Stander became Irish, not because he became Irish and I do not know how he feels and to be honest, its none of my business.

It doesn't matter what I think about Schmidt either as previously stated, I do not know him personally. I consider him as a dual national.

Do you really have so much difficulty in understanding this concept?

The concept of calling your fellow citizen unethical for wanting to represent their country? Yes of course I have difficulty understanding that.

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

Pot Hale wrote:

Doctor7 wrote:

BamBam wrote:As I posted on the other thread - Dowlais is only blustering away because he's jealous of the calibre of players England / Ireland can attract

If Wales could get someone of the calibre of James Lowe, you can bet your life that old Lordy would have nothing but support for the laws.

He's just a hypocrite, as shown by the comments highlighted by Oracle

OMG

How childish is this member ?

what are you 10 years old ???

Did you really just write - OMG?  

Hmm, for a new member he shares a remarkably similar posting style to old Lordy

I have no other way to say things as you are completely incapable of understanding and manipulate responses to suit your argument.

I have zero interest in continuing further dialog with you on this.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck. You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse? What is he then? How would you describe him then? He's back to being just a Kiwi?

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

No I have never claimed he isn't a Kiwi too, of course he is. I have never said he has changed allegiance although his family have all said they support Ireland over the ABs and you have to assume that he does too. That said of course he still considers himself a New Zealander, no issues with that at all. Sure Im half Irish half Australian myself.

BamBam wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Doctor7 wrote:

BamBam wrote:As I posted on the other thread - Dowlais is only blustering away because he's jealous of the calibre of players England / Ireland can attract

If Wales could get someone of the calibre of James Lowe, you can bet your life that old Lordy would have nothing but support for the laws.

He's just a hypocrite, as shown by the comments highlighted by Oracle

OMG

How childish is this member ?

what are you 10 years old ???

Did you really just write - OMG?  

Hmm, for a new member he shares a remarkably similar posting style to old Lordy

What's this supposed to mean ?

He is not me, perhaps you need another ban.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

No I have never claimed he isn't a Kiwi too, of course he is. I have never said he has changed allegiance although his family have all said they support Ireland over the ABs.

Well durr, when your old man coaches them...what a daft comment. What do you think theyre going to say in Ireland to fit in?

Guns logic..

No, Im not saying hes not a kiwi...but his family support ireland over the ABs

No, Im not saying Ireland are better than NZ, but their results suggest theyve had a better year. Ireland have better players in positions x, y, z, a better coach, a half that nearly averages a whole try against them.

But no, Im not saying that at all.

For someone whos never saying anything he sure says a lot.

eirebilly wrote:I have no other way to say things as you are completely incapable of understanding and manipulate responses to suit your argument.

I have zero interest in continuing further dialog with you on this.

Has the penny dropped that you backed yourself into a corner with fairly inconsistent views? "Further dialog" so formal. That sounds like something a Dutch person would say.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

No I have never claimed he isn't a Kiwi too, of course he is. I have never said he has changed allegiance although his family have all said they support Ireland over the ABs.

Well durr, when your old man coaches them...what a daft comment. What do you think theyre going to say in Ireland to fit in?

One of his daughters lived in NZ when she said that. I doubt she was saying it to fit in.

SecretFly wrote:

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

Its a long way away from my argument.

I think that the reasons behind Stander wanting to become Irish were wrong, not the that he became Irish... I consider him a dual national and he has every right to be that. I do not consider this a difficult concept to follow.

I cant comment on why Joe Schmidt became Irish as I do not know the reasons behind it as I do not know that man. He did not become Irish as it was the easiest way to represent Ireland in my opinion.

The two cases are vastly different to me.

I consider both to be dual nationals, cant see an issue with that.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

No I have never claimed he isn't a Kiwi too, of course he is. I have never said he has changed allegiance although his family have all said they support Ireland over the ABs.

Well durr, when your old man coaches them...what a daft comment. What do you think theyre going to say in Ireland to fit in?

One of his daughters lived in NZ when she said that. I doubt she was saying it to fit in.

Youre obviously frustrated with trying to come up with so many anecdotes for something youre not trying to actually say. Your persistence in what is a big nothing is however amusing.

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

Its a long way away from my argument.

I think that the reasons behind Stander wanting to become Irish were wrong, not the that he became Irish... I consider him a dual national and he has every right to be that. I do not consider this a difficult concept to follow.

I cant comment on why Joe Schmidt became Irish as I do not know the reasons behind it as I do not know that man. He did not become Irish as it was the easiest way to represent Ireland in my opinion.

The two cases are vastly different to me.

I consider both to be dual nationals, cant see an issue with that.

Well what I mean by that is first of all, I'm not using my language, but yours.  'Ethically' was your word as related to Nationality.  And I don't have a problem with it, Billy as I think I understand what you meant by it - maybe wouldn't have used that very word myself but I know what you mean.  You just mean to explain that your Heart will always be Irish no matter where you go or what Nation you reside in.  I'm A-OK with that.  I feel the same way.
I was simply pointing out that Guns criticises you for having such an opinion - that you didn't adapt all allegiance to the Nation you are now a citizen of.  And I'm pointing that such an opinion (his) might be as 'close-minded' as he seems to suggest your position is.

Anyway...who care.  It's just a topical discussion, innit.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Do you consider Schmidt unethical? I get the sense you would find it very difficult to refer to Schmidt as Irish even though he refers to himself that way.

But you too seem to have difficulty admitting that his Irishness doesn't instantly consign his Kiwiness to a bin to be kicked into the Liffey with a stone around its neck.  You seem to argue that Schmidt has changed allegiance - that he's only one thing now - Irish.  
That's not so far away from Billy's argument that you can be ethically only a certain Nationality.

What happens when/if Joe returns to New Zealand, and has been there for five or six years, working hard to push AB rugby ahead of the posse?  What is he then?  How would you describe him then?  He's back to being just a Kiwi?

No I have never claimed he isn't a Kiwi too, of course he is. I have never said he has changed allegiance although his family have all said they support Ireland over the ABs.

Well durr, when your old man coaches them...what a daft comment. What do you think theyre going to say in Ireland to fit in?

One of his daughters lived in NZ when she said that. I doubt she was saying it to fit in.

No, she is wanting to support her dad. You find an actual love for Ireland is greater than that? Pleeeeeeease, youre drowning.

Fair dues there Fly.

I honestly feel I have been very clear in my views.

SecretFly wrote:I was simply pointing out that Guns criticises you for having such an opinion - that you didn't adapt all allegiance to the Nation you are now a citizen of. And I'm pointing that such an opinion (his) might be as 'close-minded' as he seems to suggest your position is.

He shouldn't have to adapt any allegiance to Holland though, I understand he has an affinity to the country, I would even go as far to say that he loves the country, but he is telling us he is not Dutch.

Why do people have a problem with this ? He's Irish, he has never said any different. He has not pretended to be any different.

Why are you all giving him such a hard time over it ?

Joe's kids................. well, from the bits and pieces I know about, and given they've been in Ireland though more important 'growing up' phases of their lives, I'd have to agree with Guns there (not that I hate agreeing with him or anything )... but I think the kids might have an extra nerve in the game for Ireland when compared to ABs.

But what can one expect? Schools, friends, culture.... it happens.

Its all good LD, been on here long enough and should be used to Guns way of interperating and twisting in order to suit his argument.

I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish. Maybe some need to get out and experience the world...

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I was simply pointing out that Guns criticises you for having such an opinion - that you didn't adapt all allegiance to the Nation you are now a citizen of.  And I'm pointing that such an opinion (his) might be as 'close-minded' as he seems to suggest your position is.

He shouldn't have to adapt any allegiance to Holland though, I understand he has an affinity to the country, I would even go as far to say that he loves the country, but he is telling us he is not Dutch.

Why do people have a problem with this ? He's Irish, he has never said any different. He has not pretended to be any different.

Why are you all giving him such a hard time over it ?

?

Lord...................... sometimes, it really only needs an intake of breath and a pause.

I've never considered Billy anything other than Irish. We smell each other out. Don't worry about it and don't make a mountain out of a molehill........................... please

eirebilly wrote:Its all good LD, been on here long enough and should be used to Guns way of interperating and twisting in order to suit his argument.

I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish. Maybe some need to get out and experience the world...

You probably shouldn't have taken the declaration of solidarity to the kingdom of the Netherlands then if you don't consider yourself Dutch. Just a thought.

I haven't twisted anything I have been very precise, consistent and factual in the things I've said.

Id imagine I have travelled to more countries in the world than most. Over 40 at last count. Going to Belgium tomorrow, Cape Town in a few weeks, Dubai after, Argentina in a few months. If anything its you that has an insular mindset.

SecretFly wrote:Joe's kids................. well, from the bits and pieces I know about, and given they've been in Ireland though more important 'growing up' phases of their lives, I'd have to agree with Guns there (not that I hate agreeing with him or anything )... but I think the kids might have an extra nerve in the game for Ireland when compared to ABs.

But what can one expect?  Schools, friends, culture.... it happens.

So youre saying if her Dad returns and coaches the ABs shes still going to co tinue supporting Ireland, in NZ against her father coached side. Somehow.....I doubt that.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Its all good LD, been on here long enough and should be used to Guns way of interperating and twisting in order to suit his argument.

I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish. Maybe some need to get out and experience the world...

You probably shouldn't have taken the declaration of solidarity to the kingdom of the Netherlands then if you don't consider yourself Dutch. Just a thought.

I haven't twisted anything I have been very precise, consistent and factual in the things I've said.

Geez, good luck with that one.

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Joe's kids................. well, from the bits and pieces I know about, and given they've been in Ireland though more important 'growing up' phases of their lives, I'd have to agree with Guns there (not that I hate agreeing with him or anything )... but I think the kids might have an extra nerve in the game for Ireland when compared to ABs.

But what can one expect?  Schools, friends, culture.... it happens.

So youre saying if her Dad returns and coaches the ABs shes still going to co tinue supporting Ireland, in NZ against her father coached side. Somehow.....I doubt that.

Maybe she would change but that's hypothetical. Its also uncertain if he will go back to NZ. No one but Joe and his family knows.

This thread has took a surprising turn for the worse, who'd have thought.

I think we all have our own views on what is right and wrong and I think it's generally the Fiji/Samoa/Tonga and SA's that get hit the hardest.

Scotland seem to exploiting the lineage rule to its fullest with about 99% of their squad (estimated) made up of players with a grandparent that once drank whiskey.....all well and above board of course.

England (I guess Wales too) have a few players who've been over from a young age and a few that became residents.

I must admit from a personal view, I'd prefer a parent ruling rather than grandparent and the residency up to 7 years or plus.

The only countries that I get personally a bit annoyed with are Ireland and France, much more the latter I might add. Before the Irish attack me, I'm a big Irish rugby fan...my father is Irish and I'll always see them as my second nation. But........

I just really don't like this "project player" concept, it really doesn't sound good from an outside point of view. Targeting an uncapped player with zero links to Ireland, that has the potential to play for the national side (is that basically the jist?) just sounds wrong.

And don't get me going on the French. A nation with possibly the most natural talent in the NH are picking up young Fijian/Samoan boys basically (that sounds wrong), giving them a few quid and dispensing with them if they don't make the grade. Boils my wee!

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Its all good LD, been on here long enough and should be used to Guns way of interperating and twisting in order to suit his argument.

I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish. Maybe some need to get out and experience the world...

You probably shouldn't have taken the declaration of solidarity to the kingdom of the Netherlands then if you don't consider yourself Dutch. Just a thought.

I haven't twisted anything I have been very precise, consistent and factual in the things I've said.

Geez, good luck with that one.

Good luck with what one? Could you possibly post a more vague and pointless comment?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This thread has took a surprising turn for the worse, who'd have thought.

I think we all have our own views on what is right and wrong and I think it's generally the Fiji/Samoa/Tonga and SA's that get hit the hardest.

Scotland seem to exploiting the lineage rule to its fullest with about 99% of their squad (estimated) made up of players with a grandparent that once drank whiskey.....all well and above board of course.

England (I guess Wales too) have a few players who've been over from a young age and a few that became residents.

I must admit from a personal view, I'd prefer a parent ruling rather than grandparent and the residency up to 7 years or plus.

The only countries that I get personally a bit annoyed with are Ireland and France, much more the latter I might add. Before the Irish attack me, I'm a big Irish rugby fan...my father is Irish and I'll always see them as my second nation. But........

I just really don't like this "project player" concept, it really doesn't sound good from an outside point of view. Targeting an uncapped player with zero links to Ireland, that has the potential to play for the national side (is that basically the jist?) just sounds wrong.

And don't get me going on the French. A nation with possibly the most natural talent in the NH are picking up young Fijian/Samoan boys basically (that sounds wrong), giving them a few quid and dispensing with them if they don't make the grade. Boils my wee!

Is there any evidence that any player has been targeted to play for Ireland? If they have the numbers are very low and its not that different really to signing up a Tongan schoolboy on a tour to New Zealand on the basis that he is an absolute freak of nature and would make a good professional rugby player.

I doubt any player from anywhere that has come to Ireland has signed a contract that states that they will play for Ireland if they come to one of the provincial sides. They may however, been aware or made aware that the rule exists that you could become eligible for Ireland on residency in the future which is a case of the rules being right or wrong. The whole label "project player" is a media invention.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This thread has took a surprising turn for the worse, who'd have thought.

I think we all have our own views on what is right and wrong and I think it's generally the Fiji/Samoa/Tonga and SA's that get hit the hardest.

Scotland seem to exploiting the lineage rule to its fullest with about 99% of their squad (estimated) made up of players with a grandparent that once drank whiskey.....all well and above board of course.

England (I guess Wales too) have a few players who've been over from a young age and a few that became residents.

I must admit from a personal view, I'd prefer a parent ruling rather than grandparent and the residency up to 7 years or plus.

The only countries that I get personally a bit annoyed with are Ireland and France, much more the latter I might add. Before the Irish attack me, I'm a big Irish rugby fan...my father is Irish and I'll always see them as my second nation. But........

I just really don't like this "project player" concept, it really doesn't sound good from an outside point of view. Targeting an uncapped player with zero links to Ireland, that has the potential to play for the national side (is that basically the jist?) just sounds wrong.

And don't get me going on the French. A nation with possibly the most natural talent in the NH are picking up young Fijian/Samoan boys basically (that sounds wrong), giving them a few quid and dispensing with them if they don't make the grade. Boils my wee!

Could not agree more. Well said that man.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Its all good LD, been on here long enough and should be used to Guns way of interperating and twisting in order to suit his argument.

I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish. Maybe some need to get out and experience the world...

You probably shouldn't have taken the declaration of solidarity to the kingdom of the Netherlands then if you don't consider yourself Dutch. Just a thought.

I haven't twisted anything I have been very precise, consistent and factual in the things I've said.

Id imagine I have travelled to more countries in the world than most. Over 40 at last count. Going to Belgium tomorrow, Cape Town in a few weeks, Dubai after, Argentina in a few months. If anything its you that has an insular mindset.

Ok, one last time. I never said that I do not consider myself Dutch, I have a strong affinity with the country I live in. I do, however, consider myself Irish above all else though as that is where I was born and spent the majority of my life. If you consider that insular, then there is really nothing I can do about that.

Thanks for advising me on what I should or shouldn't do though, very considerate of you there.

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Joe's kids................. well, from the bits and pieces I know about, and given they've been in Ireland though more important 'growing up' phases of their lives, I'd have to agree with Guns there (not that I hate agreeing with him or anything )... but I think the kids might have an extra nerve in the game for Ireland when compared to ABs.

But what can one expect?  Schools, friends, culture.... it happens.

So youre saying if her Dad returns and coaches the ABs shes still going to co tinue supporting Ireland, in NZ against her father coached side. Somehow.....I doubt that.

The future is the future, Taylorman, and I never mentioned it in the context of the kids.  I am currently trying to get a spark plug that will fit my garage built Time Machine yes, but as of yet, I've never been to the future.

My statement of belief stands for the present though.

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Its all good LD, been on here long enough and should be used to Guns way of interperating and twisting in order to suit his argument.

I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish. Maybe some need to get out and experience the world...

You probably shouldn't have taken the declaration of solidarity to the kingdom of the Netherlands then if you don't consider yourself Dutch. Just a thought.

I haven't twisted anything I have been very precise, consistent and factual in the things I've said.

Id imagine I have travelled to more countries in the world than most. Over 40 at last count. Going to Belgium tomorrow, Cape Town in a few weeks, Dubai after, Argentina in a few months. If anything its you that has an insular mindset.

Ok, one last time. I never said that I do not consider myself Dutch, I have a strong affinity with the country I live in. I do, however, consider myself Irish above all else though as that is where I was born and spent the majority of my life. If you consider that insular, then there is really nothing I can do about that.

Thanks for advising me on what I should or shouldn't do though, very considerate of you there.

You are saying that but you keep implying otherwise:

For example: "I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish" having an affinity isn't the same as being in for a penny and for a pound.

The insular comment relates more on your opinion and lack of acceptance of foreign nationals embracing Irish citizenship etc.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

I just really don't like this "project player" concept, it really doesn't sound good from an outside point of view. Targeting an uncapped player with zero links to Ireland, that has the potential to play for the national side (is that basically the jist?) just sounds wrong.

It'll all be over when the five year rule kicks in and becomes operative Pooly. Then it'll be back to picking guys that maybe witnessed a St. Paddy's Day parade anywhere in the world, or anybody who might have watched The Quiet Man at any point in their lives or maybe even anyone who has flown Ryanair.

........................... We'll see how it goes....................... but we're cute Irish hoors, so it'll be creative

Is there any evidence that any player has been targeted to play for Ireland? If they have the numbers are very low and its not that different really to signing up a Tongan schoolboy on a tour to New Zealand on the basis that he is an absolute freak of nature and would make a good professional rugby player.

I think Ireland are quite open on this Collapse tbh, certainly from things I've read in the past. Off the top of my head there's Payne, Aki, Stander, Lowe over the last few years, maybe more?

Again, this is not an attack on Ireland. It's just something that doesn't sit well personally with me...and the name, project player??? C'mon boys! At least call it something like "We're really not signing this uncapped guy to play for us in 3 years - player" to keep it a bit less brazen!

SecretFly wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

I just really don't like this "project player" concept, it really doesn't sound good from an outside point of view. Targeting an uncapped player with zero links to Ireland, that has the potential to play for the national side (is that basically the jist?) just sounds wrong.

It'll all be over when the five year rule kicks in and becomes operative Pooly.  Then it'll be back to picking guys that maybe witnessed a St. Paddy's Day parade anywhere in the world, or anybody who might have watched The Quiet Man at any point in their lives or maybe even anyone who has flown Ryanair.

........................... We'll see how it goes....................... but we're cute Irish hoors, so it'll be creative

Haha...I have no doubt it will be SF. Glad no major offence was taken, must be a first on this thread.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Is there any evidence that any player has been targeted to play for Ireland? If they have the numbers are very low and its not that different really to signing up a Tongan schoolboy on a tour to New Zealand on the basis that he is an absolute freak of nature and would make a good professional rugby player.

I think Ireland are quite open on this Collapse tbh, certainly from things I've read in the past. Off the top of my head there's Payne, Aki, Stander, Lowe over the last few years, maybe more?

Again, this is not an attack on Ireland. It's just something that doesn't sit well personally with me...and the name, project player??? C'mon boys! At least call it something like "We're really not signing this uncapped guy to play for us in 3 years - player" to keep it a bit less brazen!

So you are saying that Payne, Aki, Lowe and Stander signed contracts with the IRFU in advance of arrival stating that they will play for Ireland if they come play for a club here? I really doubt they have. I am practically certain they don't because I know Payne for example got his central contract when he joined the Ireland squad.

For all those guys they come to Ireland to play for a club for which they get paid very well in the knowledge that if they play well there is a rule that exists that means they may get international caps for Ireland if they turn out to be good enough. How is that different to a touring Tongan schoolboy getting a scholarship to play for a NZ team, where he and everyone involved knows he may line out for the ABs in the future on the basis of residency if he is good enough?

The answer is it is really no different and the reason it tends to be schoolboys that go to NZ from the islands rather than established pros is because there isn't an established league in the island nations so by that stage it would be too late for such prospects.

Collapse2005 wrote:

You are saying that but you keep implying otherwise:

For example: "I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish" having an affinity isn't the same as being in for a penny and for a pound.

The insular comment relates more on your opinion and lack of acceptance of foreign nationals embracing Irish citizenship etc.

War then, Guns.  Let's try war - quite often the truth finder when it comes to Nationality.

Europe falls apart on suspicions and a bunch of new Brexits!  It's all so confusing but one thing is clear -  Holand has declared war on Ireland.

Now were the hell does Billy sit - both in his mind and in yours?

Will he be obedient to Holland, join up and fight against Ireland?  Will he try to keep his head down and avoid the war?  Will be return to Ireland to fight with us?  Will he stay in Holland to be an agent for us or a double agent for them or a treble agent for us?  
If Ireland lose will he be tried for treason against Holland if he came back to fight with us?  If Ireland win, will you be in the firing squad when he's tried for treason against us if he wore their uniform?

You undoubtedly regard him as Irish when you debate him in rugby so maybe we're all insulting Holand when we accept Billy as naturally Irish in the auld rugby chat?

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

You are saying that but you keep implying otherwise:

For example: "I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish" having an affinity isn't the same as being in for a penny and for a pound.

The insular comment relates more on your opinion and lack of acceptance of foreign nationals embracing Irish citizenship etc.

War then, Guns.  Let's try war - quite often the truth finder when it comes to Nationality.

Europe falls apart on suspicions and a bunch of new Brexits!  It's all so confusing but one thing is clear -  Holand has declared war on Ireland.

Now were the hell does Billy sit - both in his mind and in yours?

Will he be obedient to Holland, join up and fight against Ireland?  Will he try to keep his head down and avoid the war?  Will be return to Ireland to fight with us?  Will he stay in Holland to be an agent for us or a double agent for them or a treble agent for us?  
If Ireland lose will he be tried for treason against Holland if he came back to fight with us?  If Ireland win, will you be in the firing squad when he's tried for treason against us if he wore their uniform?

You undoubtedly regard him as Irish when you debate him in rugby so maybe we're all insulting Holand when we accept Billy as naturally Irish in the auld rugby chat?

Why are you asking me? I'd imagine if he considers himself Irish-Dutch he would be very sad to see the two countries go to war. I think your question is kind of bonkers to be honest.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

You are saying that but you keep implying otherwise:

For example: "I do love Holland and have an affinity but I remain Irish" having an affinity isn't the same as being in for a penny and for a pound.

The insular comment relates more on your opinion and lack of acceptance of foreign nationals embracing Irish citizenship etc.

War then, Guns.  Let's try war - quite often the truth finder when it comes to Nationality.

Europe falls apart on suspicions and a bunch of new Brexits!  It's all so confusing but one thing is clear -  Holand has declared war on Ireland.

Now were the hell does Billy sit - both in his mind and in yours?

Will he be obedient to Holland, join up and fight against Ireland?  Will he try to keep his head down and avoid the war?  Will be return to Ireland to fight with us?  Will he stay in Holland to be an agent for us or a double agent for them or a treble agent for us?  
If Ireland lose will he be tried for treason against Holland if he came back to fight with us?  If Ireland win, will you be in the firing squad when he's tried for treason against us if he wore their uniform?

You undoubtedly regard him as Irish when you debate him in rugby so maybe we're all insulting Holand when we accept Billy as naturally Irish in the auld rugby chat?

Why are you asking me? I'd imagine if he considers himself Irish-Dutch he would be very sad to see the two countries go to war. I think your question is kind of bonkers to be honest.

Jesus Christ.... you sound like a Politically Correct Handbook, Guns.

Relax. Enjoy the ride.

I think the question I need to ask billy is was Tim visser poached or does whoring himself out to England then scotland negate that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the question I need to ask billy is was Tim visser poached or does whoring himself out to England then scotland negate that?

A player looking to play top level rugby, No7...just like the once England Cricket Captain from Dublin.

Let's not blame the players for the rules. The rules needed changing. I think most rugby people felt that in their heart. International rugby just can't become another version of shop around/buy around club rugby. There has to be rules that distinguish it and make it unique.

SecretFly wrote:


Why are you asking me? I'd imagine if he considers himself Irish-Dutch he would be very sad to see the two countries go to war. I think your question is kind of bonkers to be honest.

Jesus Christ....  you sound like a Politically Correct Handbook, Guns.  

Relax.  Enjoy the ride.  [/quote]

Haha not too many people would refer to be as politically correct.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the question I need to ask billy is was Tim visser poached or does whoring himself out to England then scotland negate that?

A player looking to play top level rugby, No7...just like the once England Cricket Captain from Dublin.  

Let's not blame the players for the rules.  The rules needed changing.  I think most rugby people felt that in their heart.  International rugby just can't become another version of shop around/buy around club rugby.  There has to be rules that distinguish it and make it unique.

I certainly wouldn't begrudge Ed Joyce or Eoin Morgan for wanting to play for England. I think you would have to be a bit pathetic if you do.

Tongue in cheek, fly.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the question I need to ask billy is was Tim visser poached or does whoring himself out to England then scotland negate that?

A player looking to play top level rugby, No7...just like the once England Cricket Captain from Dublin.  

Let's not blame the players for the rules.  The rules needed changing.  I think most rugby people felt that in their heart.  International rugby just can't become another version of shop around/buy around club rugby.  There has to be rules that distinguish it and make it unique.

I certainly wouldn't begrudge Ed Joyce or Eoin Morgan for wanting to play for England. I think you would have to be a bit pathetic if you do.

They wanted Top Level Cricket..................correct.

Bonkers and Pathetic - the list is becoming quite delectable.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Is there any evidence that any player has been targeted to play for Ireland? If they have the numbers are very low and its not that different really to signing up a Tongan schoolboy on a tour to New Zealand on the basis that he is an absolute freak of nature and would make a good professional rugby player.

I think Ireland are quite open on this Collapse tbh, certainly from things I've read in the past. Off the top of my head there's Payne, Aki, Stander, Lowe over the last few years, maybe more?

Again, this is not an attack on Ireland. It's just something that doesn't sit well personally with me...and the name, project player??? C'mon boys! At least call it something like "We're really not signing this uncapped guy to play for us in 3 years - player" to keep it a bit less brazen!

You're quite correct, Pooly. Ireland were quite open - along with a lot of other countries who were quite open about it. Qualifying by residency isn't a secret - it's in the rules.

The phrase "project player" emerged into the public spotlight from the IRFU Player Succession Strategy in Dec 2011 - a strategy with principles designed to promote the development of more Irish qualified players by reducing and refining the number of foreign players hired to play in Irish rugby:

"The following principles are designed to deliver at least two suitably experienced Irish players in all 15 field positions for national team selection:
- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.
* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.
Leinster, Munster and Ulster were each allowed 4 non-Irish Eligible players and 1 special project player who could qualify for Ireland in the future.

From that point on, every time an uncapped foreign player was hired by any of the provinces, he was dubbed a "project player" by media and commentators. The reality is most of them weren't. Payne was a project player, Stander wasn't. Aki was hired by Connacht who don't have them. He had to get a second contract before he could become eligible. Lowe is already qualified to play for two countries - he's not a project player. Gibson-Park is the nominated project.

Saying all that, the five-year rule residency has already kicked in since the beginning of this year. In effect, hiring project players is already a "thing" of the past. But there remains players who will residency qualify in their countries before 31 Dec 2020, as long as they were contracted before 31 Dec 2017 and continue to be contacted in that union.

SecretFly wrote:

War then, Guns.  Let's try war - quite often the truth finder when it comes to Nationality.

Europe falls apart on suspicions and a bunch of new Brexits!  It's all so confusing but one thing is clear -  Holand has declared war on Ireland.

Now were the hell does Billy sit - both in his mind and in yours?

Will he be obedient to Holland, join up and fight against Ireland?  Will he try to keep his head down and avoid the war?  Will be return to Ireland to fight with us?  Will he stay in Holland to be an agent for us or a double agent for them or a treble agent for us?  
If Ireland lose will he be tried for treason against Holland if he came back to fight with us?  If Ireland win, will you be in the firing squad when he's tried for treason against us if he wore their uniform?

You undoubtedly regard him as Irish when you debate him in rugby so maybe we're all insulting Holand when we accept Billy as naturally Irish in the auld rugby chat?

Best stop all this nonsense now. I think we are all very much aware of what Guns is trying to do and to be honest, its not really worth entertaining

Entertainment is a much abused idea right now, Billy. Much too much frowns and snappiness about the world over.

A bit of Nonsense goes a long way as an antidote and long may it continue.