England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

Noones even debating that hes a better 8 than Wilson or Shields...
He's and 8...the others are flankers.

What im argueing is that Hughes has not been effective in the role that hes picked for...and thus Wilson..(or another) deserves the spot because they have been effective in the role they've been selected to play.

I would FAR rather an actual 8 at 8, hence my preference for Mercer who may not have set the world on fire..but is youngster with plenty of potential.

Metres made and rank among England players for his starts which had stats on ESPN.

vs Australia: 73m, #1
vs France: 46 #3
vs Wales: 75 #1
vs Italy 35 #7
vs Scotland: 74 #3
vs Argentina: 79 #1
vs Australia: 56 #2

Wilson hasn't been good playing the 8 role.

Scottrf wrote:Metres made and rank among England players for his starts which had stats on ESPN.

vs Australia: 73m, #1
vs France: 46 #3
vs Wales: 75 #1
vs Italy 35 #7
vs Scotland: 74 #3
vs Argentina: 79 #1
vs Australia: 56 #2

They tell absolutely nothing!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wilson hasn't been good playing the 8 role.

Not if your looking for a carrier..like Billy.

But that's not his game. But he's been very effective in the role he plays for Newcastle which is the one he's been asked to play for England.

Seeing as my point was metres made they do tell you something up to a point. Yes ideally you want to know the circumstance the outcome etc but as said primarily is he making metres it yells you he is.
As for wilson s role. Needs must I suppose but don't hink he's a good enough 8 and not a good enough 7. As a starter that is. Useful bench option.
Thanks for the stats.

Hughes hasn't really shone on the international circuit. However I feel that he has had several bum deals where he has been dropped straight into the side when he's not been fit and firing (mostly due to injury) and then not performed at all - eg. Scotland game in 6N.
However, when given an extended run he has shown glimpses - its unfortunately we've not seen enough of it. And it takes him a few games to get there.
He also does not do himself any favours (recent brain farts as proof of that).

Would he be parachuted back in - if there were better alternatives?
We've not mentioned Sam Simmonds for a while - I know he is injured at the mo, will he be back in contention in time? possibly!
Wilson has shows he offers cover there - and brings that workrate that not many of the other no.8s have.
Shields I believe can cover - haven't seen much of it at international though.
Billy V - don't need to say anything other than he needs to get fit and stay fit.

Mercer I think is better coming off the bench as a finisher at the moment.

propdavid_london wrote:Mercer I think is better coming off the bench as a finisher at the moment.

I also think he needs to harden up a lot to be effective at 8. I also suspect he might make a better international 6 than 8

Looks like England have reverted back to rolling out the little Noro bug again for this week vs ozzie.

We really should teach the southern hemisphere the importance of hygiene shouldn't we.

Yes true, we’ll have to hand out masks, get injections, and of course pray, when we tour third world countries.

And wash your hands of course. Not sure new zealand tour developing countries very often though.

Blah blah blah, already four posts too long.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We really should teach the southern hemisphere the importance of hygiene shouldn't we.

Interestingly the RFU tweeted a video from the last Eng v Oz game with a clip of Hughes taking the ball from the base of the scrum and exploding through the first defender with a strong hand off. Hes then grabbed by two others but keepa going, making ground, unfortunately hea then bullied back and doesnt recycle, hes been pushed almost off the pitch and we then lose the ball. Luckily we have advantage anyway and Youngs scores.

But that is Hughes in a nutshell, Billy V light. Physical enough to get over the gainline, slow enough to get surrounded by the defence, not strong enough to cope with them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seeing as my point was metres made they do tell you something up to a point.  Yes ideally you want to know the circumstance the outcome etc but as said primarily is he making metres it yells you he is.
As for wilson s role.  Needs must I suppose but don't hink he's a good enough 8 and not a good enough 7. As a starter that is. Useful bench option.
Thanks for the stats.

Granted not when everyone is back fit.

For me, England should really put Australia away quite easily. They are the better side and at home so I would imagine England winning by 3 scores.

Should do. Another proper prep week. Our pack so far has been pretty strong but Borthwick will want a flawless lineout and Daly will want to actually win a aerial challenge!
I do want to see if jones backs the 2 rookies in cokanasiga and hill with hopefully a start and a bench. They could be 2 great fliers for the world cup.

What's the storey with Robshaw, has he retired from international rugby or is he injured?

Injured. Haskell has pretty much been dropped now so unlikely to see him back. Think Shields was about to take the 6 shirt in the summer before injury anyway though.

Injured I believe

Cheers lads. I thought there must have been some reason for him not being involved in the squad. He must be well into his 30's now so maybe not much chance of getting back in once fit either.

There's a few young pretenders. Obviously shields. Willis would have been capped now but for injury. Clifford has loads of potential but can be filed under Tuilagi levels of fitness. I think hill is likely to be looked at as a 6 by Jones too. All of them need some luck to establish themselves though. Potential rather than Robshaw s proven calibre.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should do. Another proper prep week. Our pack so far has been pretty strong but Borthwick will want a flawless lineout and Daly will want to actually win a aerial challenge!
I do want to see if jones backs the 2 rookies in cokanasiga and hill with hopefully a start and a bench. They could be 2 great fliers for the world cup.

Hill was cut from the squad yesterday.

Boooooooooooooooooo.

Forwards (14): Moon, Hepburn, Hartley, George, Sinckler, Williams, Itoje, Lawes, Ewels, Stooke, Shields, Underhill, Wilson, Hughes

Backs (12): Youngs, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Ford, Francis Te'o, Slade, Tuilagi, May, Nowell, Cokanaisiga, Daly

Unless Jones does something unusual with his bench, there's one forward to drop (most likely Stooke, but could be Ewels) and 2 backs to cut.

They'll all have to get past Wilson....

Well it looks like I'm walking a line now as a mod has it in for me not just doing as he asks so I won't get into a tit for tat with you gf! Wilson ain't got the 6 shirt yet. From the quotes of mitchell and jones I think they're looking at a good lineout option at 6 and I think there are others way above wilson there.unfortunately that includes lawes as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it looks like I'm walking a line now as a mod has it in for me not just doing as he asks so I won't get into a tit for tat with you gf! Wilson ain't got the 6 shirt yet. From the quotes of mitchell and jones I think they're looking at a good lineout option at 6 and I think there are others way above wilson there.unfortunately that includes lawes as well.

Ah its just good banter mate. I thought that's what forums were for... we're not being malicious or anything?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it looks like I'm walking a line now as a mod has it in for me not just doing as he asks so I won't get into a tit for tat with you gf! Wilson ain't got the 6 shirt yet. From the quotes of mitchell and jones I think they're looking at a good lineout option at 6 and I think there are others way above wilson there.unfortunately that includes lawes as well.

Ah its just good banter mate. I thought that's what forums were for... we're not being malicious or anything?

GF, the challenge here is 7&1/2 doesn't understand the difference between constructive conversation and negative destructive banter that derails threads.

And to be honest, it shouldn't be necessary to explain it to a grown man

Ha. Hoping it's viewed that way anyhow. It's interesting to me that we're starting to see a change in type of our flankers. Will be interesting to see when everyone is fit and if it ever happens what the thinking is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it looks like I'm walking a line now as a mod has it in for me not just doing as he asks so I won't get into a tit for tat with you gf! Wilson ain't got the 6 shirt yet. From the quotes of mitchell and jones I think they're looking at a good lineout option at 6 and I think there are others way above wilson there.unfortunately that includes lawes as well.

I really don't want to see lawes at 6 (I think he's our best lock by quite a way) ...but im increasingly thinking Jones DOES want him there.

As for Wilson he's a Robshaw style player. bricks and mortar style. Other more explosive style players etc like Underhill / Curry / Willis etc etc,

It will all come down to
1: Who is fit
2: What type of player Jones wants in the back row
3: Will any of the youngsters break through and fulfil their potential .

Yup. Agree with that gf.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Injured. Haskell has pretty much been dropped now so unlikely to see him back. Think Shields was about to take the 6 shirt in the summer before injury anyway though.

Good to see Haskell is busy podcasting anyway. He is quite funny on the podcast to be fair particularly how he gets wound up when he is referred to as a brand.

Yeah could be a pretty decent analyst.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah could be a pretty decent analyst.

When he is not slurring his words. Just kidding I know he wasn't drunk.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't have to see that bit. You can view the stats.

Stats don't always tell the full picture. I just don't see what Hughes brings to the side. If he was doing what he did when he first came on the scene yes. And even his breakdown work was good then. Now...he's a shadow of that player...and never done it for England.

Hughes carried stats are always ok due to the way he's used. He's an 8 so gets to carry from the base and we often use him on kick return. He's obviously going to have more metres than most of the other forwards.

In this case, his stats are misleading. Hughes has never really made much impact, often getting knocked back in the tackle, he's really struggled at Int level. You take away his carrying and he offers very little tbh.

I'd be happy with Wilson or Mercer starting at 8, both add much more to the game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it looks like I'm walking a line now as a mod has it in for me not just doing as he asks so I won't get into a tit for tat with you gf! Wilson ain't got the 6 shirt yet. From the quotes of mitchell and jones I think they're looking at a good lineout option at 6 and I think there are others way above wilson there.unfortunately that includes lawes as well.

I really don't want to see lawes at 6 (I think he's our best lock by quite a way) ...but im increasingly thinking Jones DOES want him there.

As for Wilson he's a Robshaw style player. bricks and mortar style. Other more explosive style players etc like Underhill / Curry / Willis etc etc,

It will all come down to
1: Who is fit
2: What type of player Jones wants in the back row
3: Will any of the youngsters break through and fulfil their potential .

Back row has for a while been a problem area, although the problem has evolved.

We seem to have gone from 1 world class player (Vunipola) with few good players (Robshaw, Haskell) to an occasional world class player and a much higher number of good players (Robshaw, Underhill, Wilson, Shields, Curry, Hughes, Simmonds, Mercer).

Instead of having our world class number 8 and our two least awful fit flankers, selection is now much trickier. We can't rely on Billy, so we have to pick 3 players who can all compliment each other to create a functional unit that preferably punches above its weight.

Pencilling in my World Cup XV, I've got Underhill at 7 and Vunipola at 8. I'd have them inked in if it wasn't for their questionable injury records. At 6 it's between Robshaw, Shields and Wilson, and with their experience and versatility they'd all probably make my squad if I were picking today. Tom Curry would feel unlucky to miss out, and I'd potentially have him over Shields, but he's unfortunate to have had an average game against South Africa and not had a chance to put the record straight.

Depending on how many back row he takes, that could be it to be honest, although I'd personally have an eye on Sam Simmonds when he returns to fitness and see if I could get him into my squad to bring the total to 6. I'd have also used Mercer more this autumn to see if he was a realistic option.

Eddie's also going to have an eye on the cap count. I genuinely think that he will leave out a number of his more experienced players through the 6N and recall them for the RWC. Otherwise he is going to be very short of players who have been to an RWC before and have some idea of what to expect and how to cope.

Poorfour wrote:Eddie's also going to have an eye on the cap count. I genuinely think that he will leave out a number of his more experienced players through the 6N and recall them for the RWC. Otherwise he is going to be very short of players who have been to an RWC before and have some idea of what to expect and how to cope.

He does have a good core of players with World Cup experience.

Players with World Cup experience who would be reasonably-to-very annoyed about missing out
Mako Vunipola, Hartley, George, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola, Care, Youngs, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Ford, Joseph, Slade, Tuilagi, Ashton, May, Nowell, Watson

Players who have World Cup experience who Jones has leaned on in the past, but are currently out of favour
Marler, Cole, Haskell, Wood, Brown

That gives him 20 players with that experience. A lot of them will have also experienced Premiership and European finals, Grand Slam games and away tours to the Southern Hemisphere. That should be plenty of experience to pull anyone fresh faces through.

We could easily see those 20 players as well as Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Williams, Itoje, Shields, Wilson, Underhill, Hughes, Te'o and Daly to make 31. You wouldn't call that an inexperienced squad. Even if you took 5 players out due to injury, you would still look fairly settled, even before you consider potential call-ups for Cole or Brown.

Poorfour wrote:Eddie's also going to have an eye on the cap count.

Hartley is a big swing factor on that count, as he's up to 96 caps.

Jones has got to decide whether he keeps the cap count high, or picks players he thinks might be more suited to the game he wants England to play. Conceivably, Haskell (77), Robshaw (66), Brown (72), Cole (85) and Care (84) could all be out of the running for a place in a World Cup matchday 23.

Looks like Nowell is out so Cokanasiga could be starting

If you are wondering how Billy Vunipola is getting on, he 's quite open about life in this interview.



It sounds like his mum wants him to use his full first name of Viliami, so we might have to have a rest as we did for Taulupe Faletau.

If you haven't go the time to watch it, here are a couple of takeaways:

- He hopes to be back at the end of the year, or beginning of January, which is the expected 10-12 weeks

- He's cut down/cut out boozing. He only started drinking when he was 23, and took to it with relish. However, he's decided it was becoming excessive, and has calmed down. No-one from family, club or national set-up ever read him the riot act but he says he was given advice, and finally took it on board.

- He's getting married

- It took him longer than we might imagine to feel comfortable in Test rugby. When England lost to France in the 2014 Six Nations, he recalls feeling wiped out from all the collisions, and even felt happy to be subbed off. He thinks he didn't really settle until Eddie Jones arrived, and encouraged him to play his natural game.

- Alex Payne recalls interviewing him at a corporate lunch after England had lost to Wales at the World Cup, and he'd been injured. Payne asked him how he dealt with being out of the tournament. He apparently answered "I went to a dark place," and then added "A strip club".

Big chance for cokanasiga if true. Hoping the comments re Tuilagi were mind games and he makes it to the bench. Still not massively.sold om francis myself though he's always looked decent for england.

Caps are a moot point though if the player is not playing at the standard worthy to be picked.

Haskell for example. He may have 77 caps...but I would not pick him for "experience" over a fully fit and on form Underhill now.

Experience is useful in the right context and scenario.

So by the sounds of the reports in the papers this morning, the 23 is as follows

Moon, Hartley, Sinckler
Lawes, Itoje
Shields, Underhill, Wilson
Youngs, Farrell
Cokanasiga, Teo, Slade, May
Daly

George, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Hughes, Care, Ford, Tuilagi

I quite like it. Lawes and Itoje in their best positions, Hughes not brought straight back in and allows Wilson/Underhill to keep showing their form while Shields has another opportunity to show what he can do. Big Joe gets a chance with a settled backline, and we get Hughes / Tuilagi potentially offering serious impact carrying off the bench

If that's the team then im quite happy with it.

Sinkler really needs to establish himself physically in this game and start finding consistency with that as well.

That's a VERY strong lock combo..top class IMO, and the back row is a physical, grafting one that wont take a backward step. If Te'o and Coka can carry hard and get over the gain line...that's a back 5 that should be able to give us quick ball.

Te'o needs a BIG game though...smashing holes, hard carrying. Generally being that physical fulcrum in the middle, that Farrell and particularly Youngs and Slade can work off...and give the forwards a target to hit as well.

Coka showed glimpses v Japan that he could offer that as well...

I thought care had been released back to quin's?