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Dragons Season Thread - 2019/20 aka Year 1 of the new 5 Year Plan

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Post by Stone Motif on Sun 30 Dec 2018, 11:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

RiscaGame wrote:A good win for Dragons. Wonder if George North might get banned this week for more shethousery. Guy is turning into a dirty get down there.

Wasn’t too convinced by the subs we made, but they turned out to be wise choices. That includes Tovey steadying the ship and kicking the winner and surprisingly Suter being solid in the scrum.
It's an amazing win given the Ospreys dominance. If they'd have made the right calls our luck would have run out I think.
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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:12 pm

It's definitely tomorrow.

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 3:43 pm

One week ban. Laughable he got anything.

They backed the decision to give a red. Absolute joke.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 3:47 pm

Joke.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 3:48 pm

On the upside we aren't short at back-row, and he could have done with a rest at some point. I imagine he'll feature for Wales U20 in Feb rather than the senior team.

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 4:16 pm

I did expect him to miss at least one derby tbh, but it's still mad really.

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Post by Stone Motif on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 6:49 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:On the upside we aren't short at back-row, and he could have done with a rest at some point. I imagine he'll feature for Wales U20 in Feb rather than the senior team.

Nah they tend to send them back if they're starting for a region
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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 9:03 pm

They have done in the past, and they've also let them go to prestigious tournaments. I assume the Regions has the final say. Thinking about it... we could be without Wainwright and Griffiths, so I guess we'll keep Basham during this period. There is probably another unknown Wales U20 7 who still step up and be good anyway. I'm starting to see more of a good case for Moriarty moving on. Arno Botha will be out of contract at Munster too and is unlikely to be picked for SA, catch my drift... Smile

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Post by Stone Motif on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 9:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:They have done in the past, and they've also let them go to prestigious tournaments. I assume the Regions has the final say. Thinking about it... we could be without Wainwright and Griffiths, so I guess we'll keep Basham during this period. There is probably another unknown Wales U20 7 who still step up and be good anyway. I'm starting to see more of a good case for Moriarty moving on. Arno Botha will be out of contract at Munster too and is unlikely to be picked for SA, catch my drift... Smile

Well yeah like I said if the player is likely to start for their senior side there's a definite hierarchy. Basham will be starting for us during the 6N no doubt.
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Post by Guest on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 11:45 pm

Can't see Griffiths being called up again unless there's a big injury list. The AIs were without (if I'm correct...) Faletau, Ellis Jenkins, James Davies, Moriarty, Navidi. At least some of those will be fit for the 6Ns, if not all. Some of those won't even be in the squad if enough of them are fit. The BaBas game was a chance to call him up and see how he goes. I would imagine that Will Boyde and Macleod, and Basham, will get caps by next autumn if not during the summer. It's a fresh slate and a chance to impress for a number of younger back rowers.

I think a big task is finding a number 8 in the Pivac mould, and not really sure what that might be - Barclay played there when we were most successful, but I still think he'd prefer someone like Cassiem, a mobile yet bruising carrier. That's why I think Wainwright was put there, but if Griffiths keeps going at 8, he might have a shot. Not sure he has the bulk tbh but I think he stands a better chance of caps at 8 than he would on the flanks. There's just too much depth and talent ahead of him in those positions. Finding a back up to Faletau and Moriarty is key, as Gatland tended to rely on versatility and plugging gaps. We're not really sure of the style Wales will play yet, but I think the number 8 will require more of a carrying option than Gatland sought for from Faletau/his 8. Moving away from the crashball 12 to a hard carrying 8. I'd be surprised if Griffiths is involved in the upcoming 6Ns on that basis. I'm still amazed that the Scarlets let Boyde go, but he's proving his quality at Cardiff, and I'd like to see him given a go for Wales by this time next year in the 8 shirt.

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 12:53 am

I guess Wainwright will play 6, Griffiths 7 and Keddie play 8 (unless Taylor plays 6 and they move Griffiths or Wainwright to 8). Hopefully we do okay. A little boost before the derbies will be nice, as you’d expect Scarlets to back their good win up again and Cardiff look quite handy too, from last weekend.

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 8:09 am

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/18096733.chris-kirwan-dragons-must-disciplined-chasing-fresh-blood/
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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 8:16 am

Chris Kirwan wrote:That’s why Ryan has to act like a Panini sticker dealer in the playground – ‘Got, got, need!’.

laughing

Brilliant

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:21 am

miaow wrote:Can't see Griffiths being called up again unless there's a big injury list.

Well I guess that would depend in some part on form, and we know Pivac rates him highly. From what I've seen Griffiths is potentially the best open-side available to Wales, he's just not getting there as his style of play often puts him on the medic table. Yes Boyde, McCleod and Basham will probably be capped at some point, it's just difficult to fit everyone in. I don't think we're as blessed at No.8, but most of it not all our open-sides can play well there. I think Pivac would like to unearth an 8 like Blade Thomson, which could be Sam Moore at Sale from what I'm told.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 12:00 pm

Is Chris Coleman a LH? 6'2 and 125kg, we might be bringing him on rather than source a replacement for Harris, unless we extend Harris' current extension? Brok has been a bit of a legend for us to be fair.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 12:06 pm

Btw the back-row is Hill, Griff, Wain. Looks like Wuss are going full tilt too.

Dragons: Talbot-Davies; Jenkins, Warren, Dixon, Hewitt; S Davies, R Williams (capt); Harris, Dee, Brown, J Davies, Screech, Hill, Griffiths, Wainwright.

Replacements: Hibbard, Reynolds, Jarvis, M Williams, Keddie, Baldwin, Botica, Morgan.

Worcester Warriors: Pennell; Humphreys, Beck, Lance, Howe; Weir, Hougaard; Black, Annett (capt), Schonert, Bresler, Kitchener, Hill, Lewis, Du Preez.

Replacements: Miller, Waller, Palframan, Clegg, Van Velze, Heaney, Heward, David.

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 12:09 pm

I think Coleman has been playing tight.

Interesting selection from Worcester. Good to see Hill back, albeit at 6.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 12:11 pm

I haven't seen much of Reynolds or Coleman to know if they can make the step up. We still look light at LH even if Harris stays, and it doesn't look like he's on the wane yet. I think Hill can be a good 6 even though he hasn't played there often.

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 12:16 pm

Reynolds looks the more likely. I remember Coleman having issues in the scrum a few times. I think I remember him playing pretty well against Scarlets last season though.

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 1:07 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
Chris Kirwan wrote:That’s why Ryan has to act like a Panini sticker dealer in the playground – ‘Got, got, need!’.

laughing

Brilliant

Rather than the fat kid at a buffet approach adopted by the WRU's Bernard Jackman.
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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 1:13 pm

True story.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 5:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
miaow wrote:Can't see Griffiths being called up again unless there's a big injury list.

Well I guess that would depend in some part on form, and we know Pivac rates him highly. From what I've seen Griffiths is potentially the best open-side available to Wales, he's just not getting there as his style of play often puts him on the medic table. Yes Boyde, McCleod and Basham will probably be capped at some point, it's just difficult to fit everyone in. I don't think we're as blessed at No.8, but most of it not all our open-sides can play well there. I think Pivac would like to unearth an 8 like Blade Thomson, which could be Sam Moore at Sale from what I'm told.

Griffiths is the best 7? Based on what - smashing the Siberians?

The highest grade of rugby Griffiths has played at is a friendly for Wales against a scratch, end of season BaBas side.

Meanwhile Wales have a test Lion and Welsh vice captain at 7 (Tipuric); a club captain, former u20 captain, and Wales co-captain at 6/7 (Jenkins); and several others ahead of him in the pecking order.

This reads like Nic Cudd and Lewis Evans all over again. You're letting club bias get in the way. Do we know Pivac rates him highly? Other than capping him? Has he literally ever said anythin about Griffiths that goes above and beyond any other player - if mentioning him at all - or are you just filling in the gaps?

7 is the new 10 in Wales, we produce too many good 7s and not enough good 8s and 6s. As he's not ripping up trees or shown himself to be exceptional in the way Warburton, and to a lesser extent, Wainwright, have, at 24 years ago and with no Wales cap to his name, you'd think the better option would be to diversify to fit himself in to the Wales set up, or be content with 10-15 caps as and when players get injured and retire. There will be a new crop of 7s coming through every year, and all you need is another Ellis Jenkins, let alone Warburton or Tipuric, to end up blocking the path. Other than moving to hooker at a younger age, the most sensible option for less-than-top-drawer openside flankers is to become versatile. Seems like Wainwright might be that man going forward, with Moriarty doing a job as well. Tough ask for Griffiths as the size issue at test level is more pronounced. But yeah, the idea he's the best Welsh 7 is silly.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 5:26 pm

I see you've skipped over the key word 'potentially' there Miaow. Don't complain about people twisting your words if you're going to do it yourself.

Griffiths is a former under-20s captain himself, if we're going down that route.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 5:33 pm

Potentially is a pointless qualifier. What's the potential in question...? When Tipuric retires? If Ellis Jenkins has a career ending injury? Griffiths is probably 7th in line to the 7 shirt. It would be like calling Sam Davies potentially the best 10 in Wales - shone at underage level, injuries and form have hampered him as a full pro. That's not twisting words - it's a nothin qualifier that asserts him as the best, but with room for a climb down, leaving a big, broad mess of what you're actually trying to say. Why mention him as 'the best' if he doesn't actually believe that?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 5:57 pm

What a daft response, lacking humility and reasoning as per - it's no wonder why people would prefer to avoid disagreements when you act so irrationally. I said it was based on what I seen. Anyone who has watched him play, including Pivac rates him highly*. Potentially he may not make it either, but that would be down to a serious injury rather than his form - seeing his form is more often than not flawless. You could say the same for Basham who is doing the same feats at age 19, or Wainwright based on being this good after 3-4 years of rugby at all levels - but I still think Griffiths is better.
Your incoherent comments regarding the 7 jersey and Griffiths just show that you don't know what you're talking about on the matter. The accusations of bias and ganging up are tedious btw.

Sam Davies certainly didn't shine at underage level, he was okay. Before you reply, Jack Clifford was the best player at the tournament.

*Yes we do know that Pivac rates him highly: https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/18066973.wales-boss-pivac-excited-immense-dragons-ace-griffiths/


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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:00 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1Ks1mCQJNk - better not watch, it's more evidence of that puny weakling Griffiths showing how average and non-versatile is.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:15 pm

What a load of old waffle and projection? Incoherent, biased, antagonistic, and lacking in humility? Yep, check, check, check, check.

You've got history of wildly, hilariously overestimating the abilities of Dragons players, and using regional form as somehow comparable to Wales (and even Lions) performances. It was Adam Warren was better than Scott Williams last month, now we've got Ollie Griffiths as (pOtEnTiAlLy) the best 7 in Wales. Looking forward to Wainwright being the Wales captain in waiting by the Six Nations.

Dear me, you're impossible, mikey. Something that started so innocuously about how much time Griffiths will play for Wales - clearly not a lot in the next 12 months at least - and you have to turn it in to this, with your flying monkey Newport orbiters doing the dirty work.

I won't spend any more time on this thread now, as it is Dragons, and don't want to make things worse by expecting sensible discussion.

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:25 pm

Ignore is your friend. It's like watching an old blind dog who thinks it's been taken up the park when it's actually been abandoned next to the motorway.
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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:28 pm

in what sense

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 7:07 pm

miaow wrote:What a load of old waffle and projection? Incoherent, biased, antagonistic, and lacking in humility? Yep, check, check, check, check.

You've got history of wildly, hilariously overestimating the abilities of Dragons players, and using regional form as somehow comparable to Wales (and even Lions) performances. It was Adam Warren was better than Scott Williams last month, now we've got Ollie Griffiths as (pOtEnTiAlLy) the best 7 in Wales. Looking forward to Wainwright being the Wales captain in waiting by the Six Nations.

Dear me, you're impossible, mikey. Something that started so innocuously about how much time Griffiths will play for Wales - clearly not a lot in the next 12 months at least - and you have to turn it in to this, with your flying monkey Newport orbiters doing the dirty work.

I won't spend any more time on this thread now, as it is Dragons, and don't want to make things worse by expecting sensible discussion.

Well I'm sure you were capable of discussing it rationally, but it doesn't take much for you to see something you don't agree with and do the polar opposite. When you aren't throwing around false accusations like racism you got this ridiculous thing where you tell people they have 'Dragons bias.'

"As he's not ripping up trees or shown himself to be exceptional in the way Warburton, and to a lesser extent, Wainwright, have, at 24 years ago and with no Wales cap to his name, you'd think the better option would be to diversify to fit himself in to the Wales set up, or be content with 10-15 caps as and when players get injured and retire."

What do you classify is ripping up trees? Griff plays exceptionally well in every game for Dragons, often getting MOTM. As I alluded to, he has bad luck with injuries. Wainwright on the other hand never seems to be injured. Wrong, he was capped before the baa-baa's game. Diversify? Again this is confusing, but presumably you mean play across the back-row and not convert to hooker... Well, he has played across the back-row. So you don't know what you're talking about.

"There will be a new crop of 7s coming through every year, and all you need is another Ellis Jenkins, let alone Warburton or Tipuric, to end up blocking the path."

Not entirely sure what this means, but there won't be anyone coming through to displace Griffiths. They would have to move elsewhere.

"Tough ask for Griffiths as the size issue at test level is more pronounced. But yeah, the idea he's the best Welsh 7 is silly."

He isn't too small though, no idea where you got that from. He is in great physical condition and has high fitness levels. I think potentially he could be the best Welsh 7 at some point - if you're having difficulty with this statement it's a you problem. If you don't agree then try and be rational instead of flinging your turd everywhere, we're a bit tired of it now.

Yep, Warren is much better form than Williams. No idea what it is with you and Scott, but he's been woeful for nearly 2 seasons. You were even calling for him to be called him and thrust into the Wales world cup team. picard

If you're going to comment at least know what you're talking about, and don't throw around stupid accusations. This thing with 'Dragons fans' or whatever it is you're calling us now seems to be spilling over onto a few threads, I find it a bit weird. I also find it ironic given that Turks still rate James Davies as the best 7 in Wales...

Yeah it's best to stay off the thread, and you wouldn't be the first to be ruining it to the extent that the mods would ask you to keep off it.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 8:42 pm

Warburton was capped by Wales at, what, 19/20. Same sort of age as Wainwright - who I'm yet to be convinced is in Warburton's calibre despite Gatland's assertions. But the point is, genuinely 'best in Wales' players tend to make a name for themselves pretty quickly. You can include someone like George North in there, Halfpenny, AWJ...whoever. Griffiths isn't of that calibre, he plays for a poor team and while he is one of the better players, that doesn't really mean much. Unlucky with injuries, but he's still some way off the players ahead of him in the pecking order. If he were the best 7 in Wales elect, another region would be looking to snap him up, no doubt about that.

It's pretty simple when it comes to Dragons bias. You have a very longstanding habit of massively overestimating the abilities of Dragons players. Which is fine. You're a fan. But it gets boring having to listen to the idea that Dan Evans, Nic Cudd, Lewis Evans, Ashley Smith, Jonathan Davies...on and on and on, decent clubmen who are clearly not international standard, being hyped up by you as the answer for Wales. That's Dragons bias - you start off with your region/club as the 'norm', and therefore anyone above that norm, i.e. your better performing players, immediately rings a bell in your head as 'good enough for Wales'. Because you love an argument, you also love saying they're better than the other regions' players as well, but that's by the by. Ultimately, it seems you don't spend enough time assessing the merits of Dragons players when it matters i.e. against the best or even better opponents. The other 3 regions have had this exposure at some point over the last 10 years, the Dragons haven't. What is 'normal' for you - the Dragons - is less than for every other region and, thererfore, regional fan. To stand out in the Dragons team doesn't mean all that much. Steff Evans would carve it up each week at Rodney Parade - I mean Hal Amos was your captain for a while, wasn't he? Steff would be one of your best players. But we know that Steff Evans has issues with his pace, defence, and aerial game, and despite being ruthless in the Pro14 and Europe, against better teams than the Dragons face, he's yet to convince at test level. Most Scarlets fans are happy to be honest enough about this, that a good club man isn't the same as an international in waiting, let alone the 'best' in their position. Everyone's guilty of some club bias over the years, but you have a consistent trend of not really 'getting' why, let's say, there's a vast, vast gulf in ability between Scott Williams and Adam Warren. Because you're too biased towards the Dragons. That's fine, but it's Dragons bias, plain and simple.


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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 8:45 pm

p.s. do you know what ironic actually means? I don't doubt there are Scarlets fans who think James Davies is the best 7 in Wales. It's called club bias. Which is what this is all about.

Now *that's* irony in action...

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 8:48 pm

I thought he wasn’t going to ‘spend any more time on this thread’? Headscratch
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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 8:50 pm

Haha. Just killing time before the election coverage starts.

p.s. aren't I a 'she' on these boards?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:03 pm

I wish he’d retire like he also claimed. Just about everyone is done with the BS, it’s just not something a normal person would keep doing Rolling Eyes

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:15 pm

Justin Tipuric = 102kg, 1.88m
James Davies = 93kg, 1.87m
Ollie Griffiths = 104kg, 1.85m
Ellis Jenkins = 100kg, 1.85m

Them's official club website stats by the way. Spot the player too small for international rugby.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:17 pm

Stone, it’s laughable isn’t it? Being biased and then accusing others of bias because they didn’t agree with you. I suppose these truthful comments will get complained about too.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:26 pm

Think we worked out that "official" stats aren't worth the code they're written on. Mikey arguing that England and Wales had 'bigger' packs than South Africa made a mockery of that...and yet you're still going...

p.s. I've said he's a bit small for number 8, as all of those players would be. But yeah, focus on 'twisting' words by ignoring "potential"...

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:38 pm

I sense wriggling.

Just going to point out that two of the four players mentioned above have played across the back row, the second smallest of the quintet having his best game yet playing 6&8 against SA.
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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:41 pm

Nope. I know what I think. Misinterpreting that/outright getting it wrong and me then clarifying isn't wriggling.

I said Griffiths might be better placed to look at number 8 for Welsh caps than anything else, or failingthat, becoming a Navidi type player who can do the lot, but size (and more importantly, strength) is against him, as it would be for Moriarty, Wainwright, and everyone, really, to manage that role. Griffiths would have an even tougher ask on his hands than those, but maybe playing 8 from a younger age helps him with specialist skills like base of scrum control, omething Navidi has struggled with for Wales.

That's all. It's not contentious in the slightest.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:46 pm

miaow you can’t be serious? The weight of the starting packs was on the TV, and out of all the people on the match thread it was only you disagreeing with factual data that was right there - all because you didn’t want to admit to being wrong. And now you’re bringing it back up to try and get one over on me DESPITE being wrong back then? Your thought process never ceases to amaze me. A number of years doing it now and no change. Just retire mate, this seriously isn’t good for you.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:48 pm

No, I wasn't the only one who clearly doubted the fact that the South African pack was "smaller" (lighter, narrower, shorter) than Wales' (and then England's), but a call to community ("everyone thinks this, no-one thinks THAT") is a classic, and flawed, rhetorical advice. If you want to see people agree with me - whatever that's worth - go check the match thread.

Or just check the highlights where Wales get smashed behind the gain line time after time.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:01 pm

Go back to the thread then, because you were. You also said England were the biggest pack in the world at some point, but when you got shot down you starting wriggling like you’re doing now. This is pathetic tbh, but I’ve always found this ever since you started sniffing after my comments a few years ago. Now there’s numerous other posters saying it, go figure.

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Post by Guest on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:06 pm

Sniffing away?

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:56 pm

Numbers, facts - pah! I have words, lots of words
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 7:30 am

Gents,

It feels like an argument from another thread has invaded this one. This is not conducive to anyone's health.

There also seems to be a mistaken belief that if you argue for long enough that the internet can be won. This is a fallacy, people just lose their tempers and we all then suffer.

So let's get back to discussing the Dragons. Even masochists need a place to wallow.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 8:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:

So let's get back to discussing the Dragons. Even masochists need a place to wallow.

boxing

Isn't that the Leicester thread, this season? Laugh

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 8:58 am

RiscaGame wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:

So let's get back to discussing the Dragons. Even masochists need a place to wallow.

boxing

Isn't that the Leicester thread, this season? Laugh


True. Our only consolation so far this season is we at least won in Cardiff Very Happy

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 9:11 am

Good result that, to be fair.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 10:52 am

Worcester make 14 changes bringing back a lot of first choice players for tonight.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 11:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:Worcester make 14 changes bringing back a lot of first choice players for tonight.

Yeah, can see us struggling tonight to be honest. Which makes last week even more annoying.

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