Italy vs Wales in Rome match 2

First topic message reminder :


Wales:

15 Liam Williams, 14 Jonah Holmes, 13 Jonathan Davies (c), 12 Owen Watkin, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Aled Davies, 8 Josh Navidi, 7 Thomas Young, 6 Aaron Wainwright, 5 Adam Beard, 4 Jake Ball, 3 Samson Lee, 2 Elliot Dee, 1 Nicky Smith

Replacements: 16 Ryan Elias, 17 Wyn Jones, 18 Dillon Lewis, 19 Alun Wyn Jones, 20 Ross Moriarty, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 Gareth Anscombe, 23 Hallam Amos


Italy:

15 Jayden Hayward, 14 Edoardo Padovani, 13 Michele Campagnaro, 12 Luca Morisi, 11 Angelo Esposito, 10 Tommaso Allan, 9 Guglielmo Palazzani, 8 Sergio Parisse (c), 7 Abraham Steyn, 6 Sebastian Negri, 5 Dean Budd, 4 David Sisi, 3 Simone Ferrari, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Nicola Quaglio


Replacements: 16 Luca Bigi, 17 Cherif Traore’, 18 Tiziano Pasquali, 19 Federico Ruzza, 20 Marco Barbini, 21 Edoardo Gori, 22 Ian McKinley, 23 Tommaso Benvenuti



Date: Saturday, February 9

Venue: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick-off: 17:45 local (16:45 GMT)
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant referees: Wayne Barnes (England), Shuhei Kubo (Japan)
TMO: David Grashoff (England)

There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

miaow wrote:There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

I really like Holmes.

Very happy to see Amos in the 23 too

Yes, that's good to see too. The bench as a whole looks strong, no-one there will weaken the team, and in some/many instances should strengthen it.

This is a RWC year after all. As frustrating as it is that Wales should be 2 from 2 going into the England game, and potentially on for a title challenge, we all know he prioritises the big prize, even if it means effectively throwing the smaller-but-still-valued games in the run up.

He did it in 2011 6Ns. He definitely did it in the 2015 6Ns, albeit Wales were briefly top on the final weekend. Obviously the goal is to win the tournament this year, and Wales are on a high coming into this 6Ns whereas in the other two they had been on a steady decline (2010/11 and 2014 probably Wales' weakest periods under Gatland).

But I don't think Wales have enough to get through the last 3 games and win the tournament by holding back their play cards for the RWC. All 3 teams are too good for that - Wales can't just turn up at Murrayfield and win anymore, and Eng and Ire will be huge tests.

In the Gatland interview it says he had to make a few changes due to injury.

North shoulder
Tipuric back strain
Hill cut to the knee that needed stitches

Makes you wonder why McBryde said no new injury worries

Not sure this game will help make anything clearer, but I am really not sure that Holmes is good enough to play for Wales.

Gatland must see something he likes about him.

miaow wrote:Gatland must see something he likes about him.

He is a decent player. Good pace, decent finisher, stronger than he looks etc etc. Now admittedly we have not seen a huge amount of him at Leicester as it was only with injuries that he secured a regular starting berth. I just feel he is a good guy to have in a club side, especially a mid-table side like us, but that he is a step below international class. It made sense for him to take Gats call as he was very unlikely to ever be looked at by England. So yeah, I will probably be proven wrong, but just feel that there will be better wingers playing in Wales that have not gotten a look in.

Wales have a lack of solid 15s in the regional game, and I think he wanted to look at someone who can cover Liam Williams if necessary filling in that utility back 3 player and being solid/reliable.

He doesn't look top drawer, no, but then Gatland deems him a better choice than someone like Matthew Morgan or Jordan Williams, talented players with big flaws playing in the same poisition.

Leigh Halfpenny
Dan Evans
Dan Fish
Matthew Morgan
Hallam Amos
Jordan Williams

Despite what some of the English trolls are saying on this thread, although I am a little peeved that Gatland has deemed it necessary to make all these changes, I do not think it's disrespect, I think it's a gamble.

I am not confident this side will score 4 tries.

Interesting selection, clear 2nd/3rds....who covers centres. I think Amos and Williams should be swapped but clearly he is giving Liam game time as Half must be a worry.

Very inexperienced pack too. I dont see many leaders in that group but perhaps Wainwright may evolve.

maestegmafia wrote:Leigh Halfpenny
Dan Evans
Dan Fish
Matthew Morgan
Hallam Amos
Jordan Williams

Think that's a case in point. Halfpenny a Wales and Lions stalwart, Amos in the squad. Fish has been inbetween the Blues and Cardiff teams for years, Dan Evans overlooked as the club game is probably his level, eventhough he's a decent player. The other two are converted 10s who we all know about.

You can even throw someone like Tom Prydie as being the player he's looking for - someone to fill in at both wing and 15 when needed. He's not good enough either.

In fact, I think Wales called up Prydie in 2017 didn't they? Clearly not overly impressed with what they saw.

No doubt that they've gone looking for someone like Holmes and deem him to be better than any of the options mentioned above. Remains too be seen what he can do for Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:

I am not confident this side will score 4 tries.  

Italy have made a number of changes too. I think this looks a great attacking team. Bit light on ball carriers. But plenty of pace.

I can see Wainwright and Ball taking on the ball carrying role

It is a gamble to rest so many players and it is also a great incentive to the Italians to turn up and give this game their best shot.

If it all works out for Gatland and I can see why he is doing it, it will be an inspired bit of selection in a WC year where he is looking to build a squad. If they mess it up though, he is going to look very silly and some of those players won't be going to Italy.

It is a gamble, but the counter to that is that despite the changes, there's still quite a bit of experience in the side and on the bench. It's not just a load of rookies thrown together.

It's quite reassuring having Biggar at outside half.

Looking forward to seeing Ryan Elias off the bench. Think he's ready to step up now, been playing some great rugby. Good chance to show what he can do in 20 minutes or so. Hope Ball takes his chance as well. Should be on the bench for the England game - we'll need his bulk, he played really well in 2017, and has been in decent form when he's played this season. As good as Hill is, not sure he adds enough power when up against England's pack.

It is somewhat of a gamble but I just think Wales will rely on their fitness again and exploit last 3rd. For sure we've definitely thrown down the gauntlet here and Italy will sniff an upset. Also its a pretty solid bench and having AWJ, Davies, Moriarty and Amos to come on if required Wales should be fine. Gulp.

Too many changes for me, I think some of them are unnecessary at this stage; however I stil expect a bonus point win. Also expecting Italy to take advantage of slow players like Aled Davies and engage in some boring and cynical play.

Interesting to see the 31 man squad taken to Nice, as obviously this will replicate the size of squad taken to Japan.

If all are fit, the changes we would maybe see from the 31 are -

Faletau for Young?
Shingler/ Jenkins for Wainwright?
Scott Williams for Watkin?
Patchell for Amos?
Halfpenny for Holmes?

when you look at it like that, this is a big game for a lot of players to try to force their way into a WC squad.

Definitely a big game for those fringe players. Don't think Holmes will be in the RWC unless there's an injury to either LW or LH - but that's definitely possible.

There are going to be some big names missing out due to the depth in the squad. Think we'll have a clearer picture at the end of the 6Ns but I could easily see Gatland rewarding Wainwright with a place over an unfit Shingler, despite the latter's quality.

If there's 18 forwards that doesn't leave much room for 'flab' in any position. He went with 2 hookers last time - leaving Hibbard out and not trusting any other player to come in. In NZ 3 travelled (Lloyd Burns, Ken, Huw Bennett). Hard to say how much the RWC being in England influenced those kinds of decisions, but being in Japan he may be less likely to take risks like that. Better to have a player 'there' than have to go through the issues of flying someone over on short notice and the problems that entails. Perhaps he bemoaned having a third hooker in 2011, particularly when injuries hit in the back 5 of the pack and we'll see the same again.

Anyway, let's guess and say there will be 5 props, 2 hookers, 5 locks as in 2015. That leaves 6 back row options.

The two that are nailed on starters: Faletau and Tipuric. That leaves 4 choices. Moriarty has almost certainly booked a place as a viable 8 and 6, as well as a great player in his own right. That's 3. Navidi almost certainly makes it for similar reasons.

That's 2 places left. For me, Jenkins was nailed on prior to his injury, but maybe he challenges Navidi for a place if he's fit? Wainwright and Shingler is a straight either/or decision. Let's say Wainwright for now as he's fit. So one more place - and it's Jenkins over Young. The likes of Lydiate, James Davies etc. have been capped in the last 18 months and, if needed, can come in, but only if injury occurs.

Where things might get interesting is if someone like Seb Davies makes up one of the 5 second rows. With Hill able to play there as well it means there is cover - but ultimately Wales should be focusing on who are the starting players, as they'll have the biggest say in how well Wales do. I'm not sure the 6 shirt is nailed down but at the moment Navidi has to be in prime position, not just for his performance against France but for his form in 17/18 as well.

chris_501 wrote:Interesting to see the 31 man squad taken to Nice, as obviously this will replicate the size of squad taken to Japan.

If all are fit, the changes we would maybe see from the 31 are -

Faletau for Young?
Shingler/ Jenkins for Wainwright?
Scott Williams for Watkin?
Patchell for Amos?
Halfpenny for Holmes?

when you look at it like that, this is a big game for a lot of players to try to force their way into a WC squad.

Definitely, Gatland and the other coaches have said so this week.

It’s a great opportunity for players that may really improve our squad for Japan RWC.

when you look at our rwc schedule there is at least one very quick turnaround so I think gats wants to almost have a mid week side of second stringers so that his first picks can get the rest.

Pie wrote:when you look at our rwc schedule there is at least one very quick turnaround so I think gats wants to almost have a mid week side of second stringers so that his first picks can get the rest.

I understand what you are saying about RWC schedule. But should any one at this moment in time even be thinking about RWC schedule's. Surely your focus should be on the 6ns. and trying to win that first and foremost.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Pie wrote:when you look at our rwc schedule there is at least one very quick turnaround so I think gats wants to almost have a mid week side of second stringers so that his first picks can get the rest.

I understand what you are saying about RWC schedule. But should any one at this moment in time even be thinking about RWC schedule's. Surely your focus should be on the 6ns. and trying to win that first and foremost.

The focus is obviously on both in every team. If there is any way that a team can train for a six nations match in a way that helps prepare them for what is to come in Japan later this year, then obviously that is of a massive benefit to the Squad and coaching staff.

Think Gatland's probably more focused on the RWC than perhaps any other 6Ns coach. As much as he'd love another title I think he's aiming for a SF place and beyond - leave on a high, get Wales to a stage where they're 'overachieving' and put himself in the window for the ABs again.

Over achieving?

So why, if Wales make the RWC semi finals, are they over achieving and others not?

Any ‘neutral fans’ planning on showing up and constantly blaming the ref today?

maestegmafia wrote:Over achieving?

So why, if Wales make the RWC semi finals, are they over achieving and others not?

Maybe he's lining himself up for a semi-final against the ABs? You think if he won that match, he'd have the contract waiting for him by the time he left the stadium!

Something feels off about this game. Has the crowd noise been turned down? Just feels weird watching it, like it's being played in an empty stadium.

Problems with the ref mike I think. We are getting no noise from the pitch, and only the crowd noise that the commentators mikes pick up.

LondonTiger wrote:Problems with the ref mike I think. We are getting no noise from the pitch, and only the crowd noise that the commentators mikes pick up.

That would explain it. Thanks

Kicking is pointless imo. Chase the bonus point from the start.

Wales being very clinical here, the game is going to run away from Italy soon if they can get on the board soon

What a take by Padovani!

Pie wrote:when you look at our rwc schedule there is at least one very quick turnaround so I think gats wants to almost have a mid week side of second stringers so that his first picks can get the rest.

Wales schedule is an opening game against Georgia followed by a game against Australia 6 weeks later. They then have 10 days off until the Fiji game before closing out against Uruguay 4 days later.

Gatland might want to rest some of his guys against Georgia because that's a tight turnaround, but he'd be brave to rest more than a handful.

If he can trust his B team to beat Uruguay with a bonus point (and he should) he should have a good idea of his quarter-final opponents after that Fiji game, with results between Australia and Georgia and England France still pending. He can then almost start to turn his mind to the quarter-final.

Interesting that Wales have taken 3 penalties to open up here. If this is World Cup prep, the way the team has lined up he might be looking to test a team more for the Georgia match than the Uruguay one.

By all means, must win the game first but Wales must be targeting four tries in this game at some point.

Are I taly becoming a dead rubber?

Presuming Ed wrote:Are I taly becoming a dead rubber?

I think they heard you!

Get in there lads

Good try Italy, keep Wales honest !

Ist try for Italy.

As bad a day as you may have had at work this week, at least you're not going into the dressing room at halftime about to get yelled at by Gatland.

Presuming Ed wrote:Are I taly becoming a dead rubber?

They haven't won yet this World Cup cycle. They might yet come back into this one or get something from the France game, but they need to start delivering results sooner than later.

Campagnaro is some player though.

What exactly will Wales learn from this? What’s the point of this exercise? Will this team ever play together again?

The momentum in this half has just changed slightly. Italy looking more comfortable now

What a tremendous finish to the half from an Italy perspective. Didn't look like they were in at all and now they're not too far behind. Gatland will be smashing teeth at half time. Bad luck with that kick at the end from Allan, but I really think that Ian McKinley is the better option at fly half for them.

Expect Wales to come out the blocks second half. Some good rugby being played today.

Well, to say that Wales are supposed to be the better team, the score board is not reflecting that much. Yes Wales are in the lead by 5 points, but they are not having the best of the second half of the first half that was all Italy.