6N 2019: Italy v Ireland, Round 3, 23 February

First topic message reminder :

So who gets to play in this one? Who needs a rest?

Sexton has joined the injured list, but Schmidt says he should have recovered from his HIA in time. But is this the match where Schmidt wants to give Carbery a proper start, and possibly have Carty on the bench? POM looked in fine fettle but could he benefit from a couple of weeks off for his rib injury?

On the basis of the Scotland match, the depth held up fairly well with the likes of Kilcoyne coming through stronger and taking the place of Jack McGrath, and Roux and Dillane holding their ends up at scrum, lineout and in the loose. Conan got through a lot of tackles 18 and missed 1. And Chris Farrell got another full 80 minutes without mishap.

As ever, Schmidt won’t go too far in making too many changes, and he’ll want to come away from Rome with 5 points to keep them in the hunt if it goes down to the wire on the final weekend.

He might have Tadgh Beirne or Iain Henderson back for this one, and possibly Kieran Marmion with Munster v Kings, Ospreys v Ulster and Connacht v Cheetahs next weekend to give them some game time if necessary.

Henshaw just had a dead leg, so he should be good to go. Not sure abut Ringrose and his hamstring.

Will Addison is another who needs to be seen although a starting spot may be out of reach.

Who would you have in your 23 allowing for some of the above injured being passed fit to play?

I’ve gone for provincial partnerships where possible in my selection:

McGrath, Best, Porter
Henderson, Roux
SOB, Ruddock/Murphy, Conan
Murray, Carbery
Henshaw, Farrell
Larmour, Stockdale, Kearney

Reps: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Ryan, Ruddock/Murphy, Dillane, Marmion, Carty, Addison

Collapse2005 wrote:Oh poor you, blah blah blah. It must be exhausting being the victim all the time. Id say you needed to change your shorts a few times after Stockdale scored that screamer v NZ in November.

but but but the only reason they won is because 20 years ago Joe Schmidt coached in New Zealand. Loser mentality.

Why pour us? we're good. Stockdales try was a dime a dozen. Nothing special. Wingers get them all the time. Bryan Habana was probably best at them.

Can see why you'd get excited though. Individual non push over the line grunts must be rare.

Seriously? You two sound like a pair of 12 year olds.

12 was great for me Pot, and it will be for Guns, you just wait a few years and see .

Pot Hale wrote:Seriously?  You two sound like a pair of 12 year olds.  

Don't insult 12 year olds, they clearly have a greater maturity than this pair of ass clown's

...what he said...and dont forget to support the Island nations when they decide to strike at the World cup. Theyll need your support, but this time, that from the head and heart, not the wallet, as foreign as that may seem.

carpet baboon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Seriously?  You two sound like a pair of 12 year olds.  

Don't insult 12 year olds, they clearly have a greater maturity than this pair of ass clown's

Says the guy whose only contribution to the thread is name calling.

How was the England/Wales thread closed down and this exchange tolerated? Weird double standards on this forum!

Cyril wrote:How was the England/Wales thread closed down and this exchange tolerated? Weird double standards on this forum!

Fishing for bans again Cyril?

Nah. The two of you could do with one though. Or just a private thread to yourselves

Ireland were very very very underwhelming against Italy. Are they still #2 in the WR rankings? Hard to believe if they are.

I think Ireland were the only side to get a bonus point v Italy so far no?

Did you think your team was really underwhelming though? The top teams really shouldn’t be struggling against Italy.

I didn't think it was a great performance but not that worried about it really given that Wales and Scotland struggled too. 4 tries, a bonus point and a 10 point win is fine. Its a pass mark.

I think its more important that we put in good performances in v France and Wales. If we lost to France I would be very disappointed.

On the ranking, Ireland only have two losses since the start of 2018 which is the same as Wales and NZ (played more games than NZ). Ireland have won v higher ranked sides than Wales so the rankings still look about right as they are based on results rather than performances.

In the same time England have about 5, SA 7, Australia 9, Argentina 10 and Scotland loads too.

Who should be ranked ahead of Ireland?

ebop wrote:Did you think your team was really underwhelming though? The top teams really shouldn’t be struggling against Italy.

Yes, Ireland the number 2 in the world rankings. Takes 66 minutes to score a bonus point try against Italy.

Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Italy  are looking really dangerous at times. All thy need is a reliable goal kicker, an Owen Farrell, Johny Sexton, Dan Biggar type player and they will be running most teams a lot closer than now.

If Sexton keeps up his present form, Ireland will do its bit and loan them Sexton for the WC! No....no, nobody needs to shower us with praise. We'd only be doing it for the good of World Rugby.

majesticimperialman wrote:

ebop wrote:Did you think your team was really underwhelming though? The top teams really shouldn’t be struggling against Italy.

Yes, Ireland the number 2 in the world rankings. Takes 66 minutes to score a bonus point try against Italy.

Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

I think it is both. Italy left 10 points out there and would feel they could have got at least a bonus point. As Guns says both Scotland and Wales had a similarly difficult time, so maybe they deserve more respect.

That said Ireland were in double figures in handling errors and bombed 2 clear try scoring opportunities, so whereas Italy deserve credit they were a long way from the level we've seen in the past 12 months.

There were some mitigating factors with losing Aki early on and the line out going so poorly but definitely Ireland have a lot to improve on for the next 2 games.

majesticimperialman wrote:Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Ireland underperformed and probably have an over inflated sense of their ability after having a breakout year and think they only need to turn up these days. Sexton has the weight of the world on his shoulders because he is apparently the best player in the world. He’s a bit sulky and leaders shouldn’t be sulky. Italy? Well they are just plain old Italy mincing about and should be hammered every game by any team worth their salt.

ebop wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Ireland underperformed and probably have an over inflated sense of their ability after having a breakout year

2018 could only be considered a breakout year for Ireland to someone who started watching rugby in 2017.

The frustrating thing about the Ireland performance is that had either Wales or Scotland come to the Italy game with such dysfunctional lethargy, they wouldn't have won. The problem with Ireland is that they are actually good enough to play disastrous rugby and still drag themselves over the line. Had they been playing a more fluid game, the scorline would have easily been the more usual one from recent years.
So in the one game - cause for lots of concern that we could look so incapable of playing top level rugby after 2018, but also cause for hope that all this stuttering machine needs is for the players to shake off the hangover of the shock English performance ( it wasn't a shock they won, it was a shock they made it look so easy). If the Irish players get over that (and it's around about now that the effects should be wearing off) then the ability is still there to punish the best sides in the world.

Ebop, if New Zealand keep dropping games they expected to win into this year - then we might see very weird sulking episodes amongst New Zealand players. You don't sulk when you're winning well. Let's wait for a period of below level performances from the All Blacks before the lessons on what sulking is

rodders wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

ebop wrote:Did you think your team was really underwhelming though? The top teams really shouldn’t be struggling against Italy.

Yes, Ireland the number 2 in the world rankings. Takes 66 minutes to score a bonus point try against Italy.

Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

I think it is both. Italy left 10 points out there and would feel they could have got at least a bonus point. As Guns says both Scotland and Wales had a similarly difficult time, so maybe they deserve more respect.

That said Ireland were in double figures in handling errors and bombed 2 clear try scoring opportunities, so whereas Italy deserve credit they were a long way from the level we've seen in the past 12 months.

There were some mitigating factors with losing Aki early on and the line out going so poorly but definitely Ireland have a lot to improve on for the next 2 games.

To be fair to Italy they put Ireland under a fair bit of pressure which contributed to Ireland's error count. I reckon Ireland had a bad day but Italy have also improved a bit.

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Ireland underperformed and probably have an over inflated sense of their ability after having a breakout year

2018 could only be considered a breakout year for Ireland to someone who started watching rugby in 2017.

Are you serious? Ireland ranked #2 for more than 10 minutes is a break out achievement

SecretFly wrote:
So in the one game - cause for lots of concern that we could look so incapable of playing top level rugby after 2018, but also cause for hope that all this stuttering machine needs is for the players to shake off the hangover of the shock English performance ( it wasn't a shock they won, it was a shock they made it look so easy).  If the Irish players get over that (and it's around about now that the effects should be wearing off) then the ability is still there to punish the best sides in the world.

I actually don't think the gap between last season and this is that big. If you consider the first few 6N games of 2018 - we got out of jail against France and then there was a lot of criticism against Scotland and Wales about our defense out wide, requiring a couple of Stockdale intercepts to see us home.

It's a ciiche but the 6N is about momentum, the key differences between this season and last is we won our opening games and were more clinical with bonus points, performance wise the gap isn't much.

The reality is that for all the criticism and the underwhelming performances, if we'd have picked up a bonus in our opening 2 games we'd now be on 11 points rather than 9, sitting second and with Wales to come arguably still the favorites for the title.

ebop wrote:

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Ireland underperformed and probably have an over inflated sense of their ability after having a breakout year

2018 could only be considered a breakout year for Ireland to someone who started watching rugby in 2017.

Are you serious? Ireland ranked #2 for more than 10 minutes is a break out achievement

2018 wasn't the first time Ireland have been ranked 2. They achieved that ranking in 2007 and 2009 as well from memory. 2009 was an unbeaten year too.

ebop wrote:

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Ireland underperformed and probably have an over inflated sense of their ability after having a breakout year

2018 could only be considered a breakout year for Ireland to someone who started watching rugby in 2017.

Are you serious? Ireland ranked #2 for more than 10 minutes is a break out achievement

They were up to 2 in 2015 as well (and 2007 if I remember correctly) and also went a calendar year unbeaten in 2009, another GS year.

2018 was a great year but hardly unprecedented.

Ha Guns beat me to it!

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Is that because Ireland under performed? 

Or is it because Italy -played a lot better than any one gave them credit for?

Ireland underperformed and probably have an over inflated sense of their ability after having a breakout year

2018 could only be considered a breakout year for Ireland to someone who started watching rugby in 2017.

Are you serious? Ireland ranked #2 for more than 10 minutes is a break out achievement

2018 wasn't the first time Ireland have been ranked 2. They achieved that ranking in 2007 and 2009 as well from memory. 2009 was an unbeaten year too.

Are you sure? 2015 is the only other time, for 10 minutes. Sorry to rain on the parade but 6N wins and GSs don’t really garner much attention anywhere except for in those countries. It’s all about RWCs and WR rankings if you want to talk global rugby. In RWCs Ireland have choked and 2018-19 is the longest stretch at #2. It’s a pinnacle. Even your coach, team and sulky first five cleaned up in the awards.

Yes Rodgers, that's exactly what I'm saying - we're good enough to be very bad and still get some results.
I'd still much prefer us to be good enough to be great. But I'm also smart enough to have the patience to wait for that rather than see us blow out of 'greatness' right slap bang in the WC pool games.

I always prefer to choke rather than to be simply crud. Like I keep saying, all the Best sides choke... it's a sign of quality.

It doesn't really interest me if six nations wins garner much attention outside Europe however, I suspect that isn't quite true as Stuff.co.nz, theroar.com.au. NZHerald.co.nz and other SH forums and articles have featured a very high volume of articles on the six nations.

Do you really think everyone cares what people on the other side of the world think?

So guns, when did Ireland achieve a #2 ranking in 2007 and 2009? Were they pinnacle years? Yeah, the 6Ns gets attention over here but it’s far from considered special. More a curiosity.

ebop wrote:So guns, when did Ireland achieve a #2 ranking in 2007 and 2009? Were they pinnacle years?

Use Google. 2009 was a grand slam unbeaten year. Id say thats decent alright.

It's amazing how little ebop and Tman care about NH rugby, they care so little they spend a huge amount of time on a forum telling everyone how little they care, and how every rugby nation would be nothing without them, but really they don't care
Not one bit.
No no no absolutely don't care
And islanders moving to NZ and being a massive part of there success is fine, as they moved there for work and some such, but professional players moving north to work is just not right.
But they don't care at all.
I'm sure this new world league won't bother them as they don't really want the extra millions on offer, and they haven't been trying for years to get more money out of the NH, because as we know they don't care about stuff going on up north.
No
They just don't care.

You got that wrong. I care very much that over 300 NZ professional rugby players have been bought by NH clubs and NZ coaches lead several NH club and national sides. I care very much about that so I have an interest in NH rugby. You’d probably prefer a brexit like forum where no foreigners are allowed. Is that what you want? Where you can go about blowing smoke up your NH bums in peace?

Thanks monkey. Sweet.

ebop wrote:You got that wrong. I care very much that over 300 NZ professional rugby players have been bought by NH clubs and NZ coaches lead several NH club and national sides. I care very much about that so I have an interest in NH rugby. You’d probably prefer a brexit like forum where no foreigners are allowed. Is that what you want? Where you can go about blowing smoke up your NH bums in peace?

Turkeyshoot bro. Catch the laumapes of this world tonight. Six mations. Six... nappies.

I know I'll get shot at sundown as a traitor to Anti Brexit European Affiliation Fraternity Unity Movement, but you two blokes from down south ways are always Most welcome on 606. It gets very claustrophobic up her when even the French and Italians stay away from this font of expert rugby analysis and opinion that is 606.

Now, I must take some time to write my last letter to my family and find myself a cigarette and a blindfold.

ebop wrote:So guns, when did Ireland achieve a #2 ranking in 2007 and 2009? Were they pinnacle years? Yeah, the 6Ns gets attention over here but it’s far from considered special. More a curiosity.

So we've gone now from breakout years to pinnacle years?

Out of interest do you consider 2015 to be New Zealand's break out or pinnacle?

Id say it was a pinnacle for NZ as they hadn't won a RWC away from home before 2015. Only Australia have won multiple world cups away from home. It would be much easier if we all got to host multiple RWCs.

Also in 2011 France probably deserved to win the final.

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:So guns, when did Ireland achieve a #2 ranking in 2007 and 2009? Were they pinnacle years? Yeah, the 6Ns gets attention over here but it’s far from considered special. More a curiosity.

So we've gone now from breakout years to pinnacle years?

Out of interest do you consider 2015 to be New Zealand's break out or pinnacle?

If you want to dwell on semantics then that’s ok. I reckon Ireland (until recently) have never been at a higher peak. Is that fair or do you reckon Ireland’s 6Ns wins and GSs in glory years of old are when Ireland have really been the best they’ve ever been? Even though they’ve not really dominated SH opposition across the board in those years. NZ rugby has operated at a pinnacle for over a decade.

Guns, only the ABs and SA have won RWCs at home. It’s harder to win at home than away. Ask England.

ebop wrote:Guns, only the ABs and SA have won RWCs at home. It’s harder to win at home than away. Ask England.

I doubt NZ would have won in 2011 if the final was in Paris. The ref really helped them over the line with some fairly home town decisions.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, only the ABs and SA have won RWCs at home. It’s harder to win at home than away. Ask England.

I doubt NZ would have won in 2011 if the final was in Paris. The ref really helped them over the line with some fairly home town decisions.

Umm, Wayne Barnes, France, 2007, lol

Anyways, the ABs have 3x RWCs

Something for Ireland to aim for. What’s the succession plan for Ireland coaches? Bring in a foreigner or nurture from within? You know bringing in foreigners is a short-term boom-bust attitude don’t you?

I'd say each of those three cups are tarnished at this point, ebop.


Go shine them up please, we'll be taking one of them off you in the Autumn

ebop wrote:

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:So guns, when did Ireland achieve a #2 ranking in 2007 and 2009? Were they pinnacle years? Yeah, the 6Ns gets attention over here but it’s far from considered special. More a curiosity.

So we've gone now from breakout years to pinnacle years?

Out of interest do you consider 2015 to be New Zealand's break out or pinnacle?

If you want to dwell on semantics then that’s ok. I reckon Ireland (until recently) have never been at a higher peak. Is that fair or do you reckon Ireland’s 6Ns wins and GSs in glory years of old are when Ireland have really been the best they’ve ever been? Even though they’ve not really dominated SH opposition across the board in those years. NZ rugby has operated at a pinnacle for over a decade.

Well if we are going to be pedantic about Ireland then shouldn't we consider semantics.

NZ has operated at a very high standard for a decade absolutely. But it was 2011 they broke their RWC duck so it is arguable their dominance only really began then.

Ireland have been constantly at or near the top of NH rugby since the mid naughties. 2018 could be considered the best year but so could 2009, or even 2006/2007. We've had a few disappointing seasons along the way but generally been very consistent, 2018 certainly wasn't an anomaly.

Now’s the time SecretFly, best chance ever to date for Ireland

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:

rodders wrote:

ebop wrote:So guns, when did Ireland achieve a #2 ranking in 2007 and 2009? Were they pinnacle years? Yeah, the 6Ns gets attention over here but it’s far from considered special. More a curiosity.

So we've gone now from breakout years to pinnacle years?

Out of interest do you consider 2015 to be New Zealand's break out or pinnacle?

If you want to dwell on semantics then that’s ok. I reckon Ireland (until recently) have never been at a higher peak. Is that fair or do you reckon Ireland’s 6Ns wins and GSs in glory years of old are when Ireland have really been the best they’ve ever been? Even though they’ve not really dominated SH opposition across the board in those years. NZ rugby has operated at a pinnacle for over a decade.

Well if we are going to be pedantic about Ireland then shouldn't we consider semantics.

NZ has operated at a very high standard for a decade absolutely. But it was 2011 they broke their RWC duck so it is arguable their dominance only really began then.

Ireland have been constantly at or near the top of NH rugby since the mid naughties. 2018 could be considered the best year but so could 2009, or even 2006/2007. We've had a few disappointing seasons along the way but generally been very consistent, 2018 certainly wasn't an anomaly.

Ireland’s yo-yo impersonation


ABs pancake impersonation


Looking at the respective graphs I don’t think we can say Ireland have been consistent. Sure, Ireland have had good years regionally but on the global stage they’ve not really done much, until recently.

Yes..... I used to do a very good graph of progress since professionalism and yep, those ones for Ireland and ABs look quite familiar to me. We're not on the same planet as New Zealand. You gotta face facts and even learn to love them. Some guys here will resist it for rivalry reasons. So be it. That's fine too.

But we're getting there! When I remember the graphs of other top sides I think I recall much more violence in the up and down nature...especially Wales, highly erratic from memory - but overall trend there for Ireland? Pretty clear upward trajectory attempts since 2013 , with only the blasted WC getting in the way! Another reason for banning WCs of course. The upward side of the pikes are as notable as the suddenness of the drops.