England v Scotland 6N Round 5 Saturday 16th March

First topic message reminder :

England v Scotland
6N Round 5
Saturday 16th March
Twickenham Stadium
London

KO 17.00

Well here we are at the final round of matches and three teams can still come out on top following Ireland's demolition of France this afternoon.

England have the advantage of playing last and will know what they have to do, if Wales have not already wrapped it up with a Grand Slam earlier in the afternoon. That actually might be Scotland's best chance of getting anything out of this game if England get distracted about what is going on else where, particularly if they find playing for second spot a distraction, knowing Wales have already wrapped things up.

On paper, this is only going to be an English win, the only question being by how much.

Scotland have had an awful championship, where just about everything that could have gone wrong. They are only playing for pride, but history tells us that sides that are done at this stage in the competition, rarely have anything left in the tank for the final game.

It is not as if Scotland have any form at Twickenham either, we have not won there since 1983 (did I ever mention that I was there!). We had had a crap season and no-one gave us much of a chance that year either if I remember, then the following year we won the GS. Can I see that happening this time though?

Only in my dreams!

So what do both sides hope to get from the game?

England clearly want a BP victory, some revenge for last year and hopefully a championship. They would also like to show the continued emergence of such players as Cockanasiga, who could be pivotal to them doing well in the WC.

Scotland, despite whatever spin they put on the game, might just be happy with a decent performance and continued development of some of our young starlets. We took another pile of injuries this weekend and getting a half decent competitive side onto the pitch is going to be a challenge in itself. Still, this exposure might be the making of young Hastings, Bradbury, Graham, McDowell, Skinner, Ritchie and anyone else who gets to play, down the line.

Test rugby is a hard old place to earn your living and they will likely be finding that out next weekend.



England


Daly, Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Cole, Shields, Hughes, Spencer, Ford, Te'o



Scotland:

Maitland; Graham, Grigg, Johnson, McGuigan; Russell, Price; Dell, McInally (capt), Nel; Toolis, Gilchrist; Skinner, Watson, Bradbury.

Replacements: Brown, Reid, Berghan, J Gray, Strauss, Laidlaw, Hastings, Harris

You must first know the facts, before you are able to distort them.

miaow wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Do you have a link/timestamp to where Wilson is discussed, or is it just an ongoing thing brought up from time to time?

Care talked about him last week, I think, but you can just listen to this week's podcast, where Wilson is actually on the line. He pops up quite early.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0737j5t

about 13/14 minutes in

Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Today is the day where Eddie usually trims his squad isn't it, before the full squad announcement on Thursday? We might get a couple of hints as to what he's thinking tonight.

I think the 25 will most likely be:

Genge, Moon, George, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Williams(/Cole), Kruis, Launchbury, Hughes, Ewels, Wilson, Shields, Curry, Vunipola
Youngs, Robson, Farrell, Ford, Te'o, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Cokanasiga, Daly, Nowell

The key questions that face Eddie for this game are at 1/17 (Genge or Moon), 6/20 (Shields or Wilson), 12/13 (Te'o/Tuilagi or Tuilagi/Slade), 14 (Cokanasiga or Nowell), 18 (Cole/Williams), 19 (Hughes/Ewels), 23 (centre who doesn't make it or winger who doesn't make it). I would imagine one of Cole or Williams will be cut answering one question, but I could see Ewels being retained as the extra forward. The rest of the people with question marks are all likely to make the 25.

Eddie could parachute someone in from left field, either Joseph coming back from injury or any of Ben Earl, Marcus Smith or Ollie Thorely as a real rogue call. So I guess we'll be able to rule on anything like this as either much more likely or not at all likely.

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

I think Wilson had Care wound up there (i may be biased as a scot but on the other hand I dont really rate wilson as a player but I think Care is a really good scrum half)

If he's getting wound up like that on a fairly civilised, relaxed podcast imagine how wound up he'd get during a game of rugby

Tramptastic wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

I think Wilson had Care wound up there (i may be biased as a scot but on the other hand I dont really rate wilson as a player but I think Care is a really good scrum half)

If he's getting wound up like that on a fairly civilised, relaxed podcast imagine how wound up he'd get during a game of rugby

Haven't listened to the pod yet, but other than Ireland 2009 (when Johnson infamously punched his matchday programme) I can't think of a time he's lost his cool on the rugby pitch for England. At least not one that's stood out really.

Some people are just really good at getting others backs up! I wouldn't take it to heart, a podcast and a rugby pitch are two very different things, and it's tougher to be a wind up merchant when you're jogging around the pitch getting smashed and smashing into people

Care generally lets his rugby do the talking, and although he's out of favour now, his number of caps for club and country, tries scored for both and silverware show he's not done too badly on that front.

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs

Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Robson is out ill so Spencer called up.

Wilson clearly trying to get care to bite and to be fair to care he didn’t really lose it.

Wilson is a grade A plonker though. Booing the English players at the awards sounds rather childish

tigertattie wrote:Wilson clearly trying to get care to bite and to be fair to care he didn’t really lose it.

Wilson is a grade A plonker though. Booing the English players at the awards sounds rather childish

One of the Scottish journos tweeted saying he was at the awards and everyone was at it, including the English representation. Just sounds like fairly standard banter!

Check out @5liveSport’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/5liveSport/status/1105540954570833920?s=09

Danny Care not one for Wilson's banter!

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

Would you say you're shocked and appalled? Or, in millennial parlance, 'shooketh'?

He hasn't lost it lost it, but he's definitely been hooked. He's fallen for the WUM. And then it descends into a 'id beat you in a fight'/my dads better than yours argument. Embarrassing.

So he hasn't lost it?

You don't really make sense

He s just angry Spencer is preferred over him.

Am I right in saying that the Scotland game was Care’s last, if not penultimate game for England?
If so there’s no surprise that he’s bitter about it. I can understand why he’s wound up, Wilson is not one of Scotland’s better players and he’s giving a lot of chat.

But in a bizzare way he’s gone up in my estimation through all of this. He’s obviously a good laugh and he sticks to his guns. I wouldn’t say Care lost it, he gave as good as he got by my reckoning.

Any one know when the teams's will be announced for this week's game?

Scotland are usually Thursday lunchtime.

yappysnap wrote:So he hasn't lost it?

You don't really make sense

Which colloquial speech would you prefer to describe the rise Wilson got out of Danny Care?

Sad that you'd rather jump on the most minor of things on this forum rather because they don't like the poster, yap, rather than just discuss rugby.

123456789. wrote:Am I right in saying that the Scotland game was Care’s last, if not penultimate game for England?
If so there’s no surprise that he’s bitter about it. I can understand why he’s wound up, Wilson is not one of Scotland’s better players and he’s giving a lot of chat.

But in a bizzare way he’s gone up in my estimation through all of this. He’s obviously a good laugh and he sticks to his guns. I wouldn’t say Care lost it, he gave as good as he got by my reckoning.

Na. Comes across as a bit tragic. Just hint at what's coming if you want to go out there and smash them. If you're not playing then all the more reason to keep it brief. Don't get wound up and say 'I'd have you in a fight' when you're not even in the squad. That's embarrassing, particularly when you're there in a journalistic capacity.

miaow wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

Would you say you're shocked and appalled? Or, in millennial parlance, 'shooketh'?

Neither shocked, nor appalled. Just surprised you think anyone "absolutely lost it" in that exchange. The background to this, is that Care had outlined on the show previously why Wilson had got up England player's noses. He recounted how Jamie George had been determined to get revenge with Saracens by beating Glasgow but had come off with a broken nose - caused by Wilson! (Wilson claimed on the new show that it had been "an accident"). Monye had also pointed out how the Scotland match had probably been instrumental in Jones' decision to drop his friend. None of this was subtext; it was all out in the open.

Personally, I thought it was a inspired move by the BBC to get Wilson on the show. Neither he nor Care are playing at the weekend, so it's not as if two boxers were taunting each other before a fight. I was prepared for Wilson to come across rather like a Mr Angry cartoon version of Mike Brown, but it quickly became apparent that he is more of a wind-up merchant, which was a lot more amusing for the rest of us.

I don't think either man came across poorly. Wilson still has bragging rights, and he knew it. Care sounded like a man who'd rather have the conversation when England have those rights, so I'm sure he's praying that they get them at the weekend. If England do lose, I'd consider paying good money to hear Wilson back on the show next week.

miaow wrote:

yappysnap wrote:So he hasn't lost it?

You don't really make sense

Which colloquial speech would you prefer to describe the rise Wilson got out of Danny Care?

Sad that you'd rather jump on the most minor of things on this forum rather because they don't like the poster, yap, rather than just discuss rugby.  

You're not really discussing the rugby though are you? Just on the wind up

No, you'll see lots of rugby discussion from me on this and many other threads. WUMs in glass houses...

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

Would you say you're shocked and appalled? Or, in millennial parlance, 'shooketh'?

Neither shocked, nor appalled. Just surprised you think anyone "absolutely lost it" in that exchange. The background to this, is that Care had outlined on the show previously why Wilson had got up England player's noses. He recounted how Jamie George had been determined to get revenge with Saracens by beating Glasgow but had come off with a broken nose - caused by Wilson! (Wilson claimed on the new show that it had been "an accident"). Monye had also pointed out how the Scotland match had probably been instrumental in Jones' decision to drop his friend. None of this was subtext; it was all out in the open.

Personally, I thought it was a inspired move by the BBC to get Wilson on the show. Neither he nor Care are playing at the weekend, so it's not as if two boxers were taunting each other before a fight. I was prepared for Wilson to come across rather like a Mr Angry cartoon version of Mike Brown, but it quickly became apparent that he is more of a wind-up merchant, which was a lot more amusing for the rest of us.

I don't think either man came across poorly. Wilson still has bragging rights, and he knew it. Care sounded like a man who'd rather have the conversation when England have those rights, so I'm sure he's praying that they get them at the weekend. If England do lose, I'd consider paying good money to hear Wilson back on the show next week.

Sounded to me like he'd lost his cool, absolutely. He's not ranting and raving - hence saying he's not 'lost it, lost it' i.e. the red mist has come down - but he's forgotten that he's there in the capacity as pundit for a media broadcast. It's not boxing - you don't need people hyping it up in the media beforehand, partiularly when they're not even in the squad. Trying to win Wilson up about picking on Ford - Wilson makes light of it about not picking on the bigger players - and Care then has that jibe thrown back in his face. It all ends up in 'yeah, I'd have you though. yes i would. YES I WOULD!" which is embarrassing.

I get why he'd be angry. If he hasn't played for England since then it's also a possibility that that game might be the one that retires him - which would be extra frustrating, and perhaps explains why he did lose it, because nothing Wilson said on that podcast merited the reaction Care gave him. Clearly, Wilson's got under his skin, and perhaps a few other players' by the sounds of things.

All of which you've pointed out. I'm struggling to see the issue here?

On a less depressing/pointless note, Ryan Wilson sounds like the perfect mix between Joe Marler and Jim Hamilton. A future in podcasts surely awaits him in the not too distant future.

miaow wrote:I'm struggling to see the issue here?

Well, it was me struggling to see your issue which prompted me to write. To be honest, your "Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff" reminded me of those YouTube clips you see with overdramatic titles like "Watch Boris Johnson/Jeremy Corbyn/A.N. Other get OWNED on LIVE TV!!" which turn out to mundane exchanges. Now that you agree Care didn't actually lose it, the comparison seems even more apt.

I really enjoyed the segment with Wilson and Care without feeling the need to declare any kind of winner. Not everything in life has to be a zero sum game, with triumphant victor, and vanquished loser. Unless it's a draw, we'll get that binary disitnction in the match itself, which is enough for me.

Can't Nicola Sturgeon just write a note on behalf of Scotland excusing our team from Games?

Care played after the Scotland game. A few times.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Care played after the Scotland game. A few times.

Unsurprisingly, he carried on being selected in the Six Nations, which ended up being losses to France and Ireland. After that, he was "rested" (dropped) for the South African tour. That's why Monye focused on the Scotland match. He did start against Japan but I don't think it's controversial to suggest that Jones started reassessing Care's role in the squad after last year's Six Nations.

Oh absolutely. Just think it's important to fact check a little else we'll all believe that was his last or penultimate game as suggested. Since then Jones has been looking to bring through the other choices. Wigglesworth, Spencer and Robson all picking up games.

Folks can we move on from the Care podcast debate? It's been done to death now and is only going to lead to more arguments.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh absolutely. Just think it's important to fact check a little else we'll all believe that was his last or penultimate game as suggested. Since then Jones  has been looking to bring through the other choices. Wigglesworth, Spencer and Robson all picking up games.

Arguably, Care only got a look back in during the Autumn because Robson was injured.

Scrum half selection has made the least sense to me. Some appear to believe that Jones now favours Wigglesworth as the man to start if Youngs gets injured, and is now trying to decide who should be an impact bench player, or if he needs to take a third scrum half at all.

In other news Richie Vernon has just announced he is retiring at the end of the season. So, still time for a run around in a Scotland shirt this weekend!

Surprised Scotland are not trying to get the game cancelled, they are going to be bashed up especially as the England players have not forgotten about last years disrespect they showed the Red Rose.

Welcome to the house of pain.

Twickenham can be referred to by a lot of things.

House of Pain isn't one of them.

House of Bladder Infections
House of Barbours
House of Public Schoolboys in Drag
House of Plain

Just a few

TightHEAD wrote:Surprised Scotland are not trying to get the game cancelled, they are going to be bashed up especially as the England players have not forgotten about last years disrespect they showed the Red Rose.

Welcome to the house of pain.

Assuming this is sarcasm and you're taking the piss out of the media?

We will see.

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:Gave this a listen. Wow. Danny Care has absolutely lost it. Embarrassing stuff.

Genuinely surprised anyone would have that reaction to their exchange.

Would you say you're shocked and appalled? Or, in millennial parlance, 'shooketh'?

Neither shocked, nor appalled. Just surprised you think anyone "absolutely lost it" in that exchange. The background to this, is that Care had outlined on the show previously why Wilson had got up England player's noses. He recounted how Jamie George had been determined to get revenge with Saracens by beating Glasgow but had come off with a broken nose - caused by Wilson! (Wilson claimed on the new show that it had been "an accident"). Monye had also pointed out how the Scotland match had probably been instrumental in Jones' decision to drop his friend. None of this was subtext; it was all out in the open.

Personally, I thought it was a inspired move by the BBC to get Wilson on the show. Neither he nor Care are playing at the weekend, so it's not as if two boxers were taunting each other before a fight. I was prepared for Wilson to come across rather like a Mr Angry cartoon version of Mike Brown, but it quickly became apparent that he is more of a wind-up merchant, which was a lot more amusing for the rest of us.

I don't think either man came across poorly. Wilson still has bragging rights, and he knew it. Care sounded like a man who'd rather have the conversation when England have those rights, so I'm sure he's praying that they get them at the weekend. If England do lose, I'd consider paying good money to hear Wilson back on the show next week.

The bit that had me in stitches was when Care mentioned the World Rugby awards and the booing from Wilson. I could just imagine Wilson doing that and not feeling bad about it one bit, chortling away whilst everyone around hime buried their heads in their hands with embarrassment.

LondonTiger wrote:House of Bladder Infections
House of Barbours
House of Public Schoolboys in Drag
House of Plain

Just a few

House of Pimms
House of Land Rovers
House of Received Pronounciation
House of Vanilla
House of Cucumber Sandwiches
House of Eddie Butler Whimsical Overstatement

Christ, I could do this all day.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:In other news Richie Vernon has just announced he is retiring at the end of the season. So, still time for a run around in a Scotland shirt this weekend!

I wasnt even aware he was still playing! Given our absolute lack of options at 8 and at centre, both positions that the Vernonator can play, surely he should be picked by Toonie to cover both positions in the starting line up! Sure it means we'll start with 14 men, but we need to give England a chance if Vernonator is playing!

House of Standing Up and Sitting Down to let people through
House of Raa Raa
House of I'm Here On Business
House of Crushed Hopes and Dreams

George Carlin wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:House of Bladder Infections
House of Barbours
House of Public Schoolboys in Drag
House of Plain

Just a few

House of Pimms
House of Land Rovers
House of Received Pronounciation
House of Vanilla
House of Cucumber Sandwiches
House of Eddie Butler Whimsical Overstatement

Christ, I could do this all day.

House of beige chinos and Ralph Lauren shirts
House of Barbour jackets
House of lengthy bus queues
House of "Come on Englaaannnd" in thick Richmond accent
House of zero pink cowboy hats
House of respectful applause for the opposition

BamBam wrote:House of Standing Up and Sitting Down to let people through
House of Raa Raa
House of I'm Here On Business
House of Crushed Hopes and Dreams

Oh come on

No 7&1/2 wrote:Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs

Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Robson is out ill  so Spencer called up.

Pretty much as predicted then, with the exception of Spencer in for the ill Robson and the addition of Stooke in a 26, instead of the usual 25. Is Jones just trying to tie up Scotland's video analysis team to find out more about Stooke? I very much doubt he's going to play him.

Confirms there will be no return of Jonathan Joseph - Scotland's chief tormentor in 2017. And also possibly confirms all the hubbub about Smith or Cipriani was pretty meaningless. If Cipriani had been called up on Sunday and then returned to Gloucester on Tuesday, people would be moaning about it now - best get it out the way earlier in the week.

Cole for Williams settles the first of many selection decisions for Eddie. Is that Cole nailed on as second choice now? Or does Eddie like having a bit of stability off the bench the way Marler used to bring? Having Hartley and Cole as bench options for the World Cup knockout stages could deliver stability, leadership and experience at the close of games when it's needed.

Williams finishes the tournament with 38 minutes of rugby across 2 games. He hasn't looked bad, and if Sinckler was injured I wouldn't be surprised to see Williams leap into a starting berth. Similar to the current scrum half debate, Jones might have different ideas of what he wants from his starter and his finisher.

bsando wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:House of Bladder Infections
House of Barbours
House of Public Schoolboys in Drag
House of Plain

Just a few

House of Pimms
House of Land Rovers
House of Received Pronounciation
House of Vanilla
House of Cucumber Sandwiches
House of Eddie Butler Whimsical Overstatement

Christ, I could do this all day.

House of beige chinos and Ralph Lauren shirts
House of Barbour jackets
House of lengthy bus queues
House of "Come on Englaaannnd" in thick Richmond accent
House of zero pink cowboy hats
House of respectful applause for the opposition

House of broken chariots
House of £7.50 for half a pint
House of Templar Knight fancy dress (why though?)
House of "Haskell's bants"
House of Care for fisticuffs Wilson?

robbo277 wrote:....

Cole for Williams settles the first of many selection decisions for Eddie. Is that Cole nailed on as second choice now? Or does Eddie like having a bit of stability off the bench the way Marler used to bring? Having Hartley and Cole as bench options for the World Cup knockout stages could deliver stability, leadership and experience at the close of games when it's needed.

...

For all his importance in EJ's earlier years I am not sure that we are missing Hartley at all, and I also wonder if he'll be fit enough anyway. Cole on the other hand is looking better as the understudy than he had for a while as no.1

House of "On this spot in 2019, Hamish Watson did on three occasions run through and over the entire English team to score a hat-trick of tries while being enthusitically applauded for his efforts by Maro Itoje. Exhusted by his efforts, he was then subbed after 60 minutes and England went on to score 4 of thier own to win the match"

Ok it doesnt roll of the tounge, but at least its historically plauseable.

tigertattie wrote:House of "On this spot in 2019, Hamish Watson did on three occasions run through and over the entire English team to score a hat-trick of tries while being enthusitically applauded for his efforts by Maro Itoje. Exhusted by his efforts, he was then subbed after 60 minutes and England went on to score 4 of thier own to win the match"

Ok it doesnt roll of the tounge, but at least its historically plauseable.

You know what they say about history being written by the winners of the confrontation.

House of "On this spot in 2019, Hamish Watson did on three occasions run at little George Ford who ripped the ball off him to score a hat-trick of tries while being enthusiastically applauded for his efforts by Maro Itoje. Exhausted by his efforts, he was then subbed for Owen Farrell after 60 minutes and England went on to score 4 more to win the match convincingly"

Probably just as likely.

Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know