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The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 5:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

“A British League will happen in two years’ time,” a leading club chairman told The Rugby Paper. “It will happen because it is the best outcome for the game in the four home countries and for CVC. It will appeal to the Welsh regions in particular and the Premiership clubs”, according to a report in The Rugby Paper. “Commercially, they (Welsh) could be as much as 50 per cent better off. It will be important to have all four Irish provinces on board but, if necessary, we will go ahead and do it without them.”

Leaving aside the implications for the Irish, Italian and South African clubs, does this possibility excite?


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 1:10 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote: I'm still waiting to see what the English clubs benefit from it would be?
Of course that may be true, as it would be equally true if Ajax or Anderlecht got parachuted into the English league as well, however no one in the English league wants them - the top clubs wouldn't want the competition from the better PRO14 sides and the lower clubs would fear being pushed even further down the ladder - so there's no benefit in it for the English unless CVC come up with more money for them but then they'd have to come up with more for the PRO14 side to make it competitive for them, which makes the argument circular.

And there's still no logical/business reason why they'd want the Welsh in particular....

I've said about 3 times now - more money from a bigger tv deal. There is more likelihood of a B and I league than an anglo welsh for this reason. Because the welsh alone won't be able to up the deal enough.

But then as pointed out, the Irish are unlikely to go for it because their corruption would likely have to stop.

The current BT Sport deal with PRL is somewhere around £200 million over four years = £50 million a year divided by 12 teams that's £4.2 million a year. To get the same money from a B & I league they'd have to sign a deal for 24 teams worth £100 million a year just to stay still - to say bring it up to £6 million a year you'd be asking the TV companies for £144 million a year - £576 million over a four year contract - the question is who is going to pay that - it values a B & I league at more than the rights to the English football league and is unlikely to draw anything like the viewing figures worldwide that the top end Championship clubs like, Leeds, Derby and Cardiff would get.


Last reported figures were £152m over 4 years which included Euro matches. So £4.2m is way off. It's more around the £2.75m mark.

But you are right - if the money isn't there, then they won't go for it.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 1:12 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote: I'm still waiting to see what the English clubs benefit from it would be?
Of course that may be true, as it would be equally true if Ajax or Anderlecht got parachuted into the English league as well, however no one in the English league wants them - the top clubs wouldn't want the competition from the better PRO14 sides and the lower clubs would fear being pushed even further down the ladder - so there's no benefit in it for the English unless CVC come up with more money for them but then they'd have to come up with more for the PRO14 side to make it competitive for them, which makes the argument circular.

And there's still no logical/business reason why they'd want the Welsh in particular....

I've said about 3 times now - more money from a bigger tv deal. There is more likelihood of a B and I league than an anglo welsh for this reason. Because the welsh alone won't be able to up the deal enough.

But then as pointed out, the Irish are unlikely to go for it because their corruption would likely have to stop.

The current BT Sport deal with PRL is somewhere around £200 million over four years = £50 million a year divided by 12 teams that's £4.2 million a year. To get the same money from a B & I league they'd have to sign a deal for 24 teams worth £100 million a year just to stay still - to say bring it up to £6 million a year you'd be asking the TV companies for £144 million a year - £576 million over a four year contract - the question is who is going to pay that - it values a B & I league at more than the rights to the English football league and is unlikely to draw anything like the viewing figures worldwide that the top end Championship clubs like, Leeds, Derby and Cardiff would get.


And obviously there will be some members of one nationality who will bleat on and on about how its not fair that the games aren't being played in their front garden with free beer and an optional pause button for when they need the loo


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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 1:18 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote: I'm still waiting to see what the English clubs benefit from it would be?
Of course that may be true, as it would be equally true if Ajax or Anderlecht got parachuted into the English league as well, however no one in the English league wants them - the top clubs wouldn't want the competition from the better PRO14 sides and the lower clubs would fear being pushed even further down the ladder - so there's no benefit in it for the English unless CVC come up with more money for them but then they'd have to come up with more for the PRO14 side to make it competitive for them, which makes the argument circular.

And there's still no logical/business reason why they'd want the Welsh in particular....

I've said about 3 times now - more money from a bigger tv deal. There is more likelihood of a B and I league than an anglo welsh for this reason. Because the welsh alone won't be able to up the deal enough.

But then as pointed out, the Irish are unlikely to go for it because their corruption would likely have to stop.

The current BT Sport deal with PRL is somewhere around £200 million over four years = £50 million a year divided by 12 teams that's £4.2 million a year. To get the same money from a B & I league they'd have to sign a deal for 24 teams worth £100 million a year just to stay still - to say bring it up to £6 million a year you'd be asking the TV companies for £144 million a year - £576 million over a four year contract - the question is who is going to pay that - it values a B & I league at more than the rights to the English football league and is unlikely to draw anything like the viewing figures worldwide that the top end Championship clubs like, Leeds, Derby and Cardiff would get.


Last reported figures were £152m over 4 years which included Euro matches. So £4.2m is way off. It's more around the £2.75m mark.

But you are right - if the money isn't there, then they won't go for it.

My figures were based on the new deal - which is their current one - per the Daily Telegraph it was "Substantially more" than the £152 million deal so I rounded it to £200M. It might be a bit less or more but I think it's a ball park.

We do agree on one thing - it's not going to happen unless something dramatic changes.

In the meantime given the status quo, what's the best way forward for Welsh rugby?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 1:32 pm

BamBam wrote:


And obviously there will be some members of one nationality who will bleat on and on about how its not fair that the games aren't being played in their front garden with free beer and an optional pause button for when they need the loo[/quote]

I think you might be a racist.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 1:34 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

In the meantime given the status quo, what's the best way forward for Welsh rugby?

To continually put pressure on anyone and everything to secure a league with the English. Anything other than that leads to what we have now.

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Post by profitius on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:04 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:


I think you might be a racist.

laughing
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Post by The Oracle on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:10 pm

I’m so glad the cycling is on!
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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:19 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

In the meantime given the status quo, what's the best way forward for Welsh rugby?

To continually put pressure on anyone and everything to secure a league with the English. Anything other than that leads to what we have now.

Would you be happy with that on PPV TV or would it have to be on BBC Wales for free? After all we're told that having games behind a paywall is seriously reducing interest in the regional game in Wales?

Would you be OK with Friday night and Sunday games ? After all we're told that having not having games on a Saturday is seriously reducing interest in the regional game in Wales?

Would you be OK with not qualifying for the European Cup as the English teams take all the top spots? Actually forget that one, not applicable :-)

To get into bed with the English you don't need to put pressure on them - just rock up to PRL HQ with a suitcase full (and I mean really full) of cold hard cash, I don't think they're bothered where from.

Tell them how much you are prepared to bring to the party and for how long and then you'll be in the Premiership faster than you can say "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" !

It's really that easy.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:33 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:



BamBam wrote:And obviously there will be some members of one nationality who will bleat on and on about how its not fair that the games aren't being played in their front garden with free beer and an optional pause button for when they need the loo

I think you might be a racist.

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:39 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

In the meantime given the status quo, what's the best way forward for Welsh rugby?

To continually put pressure on anyone and everything to secure a league with the English. Anything other than that leads to what we have now.

Would you be happy with that on PPV TV or would it have to be on BBC Wales for free? After all we're told that having games behind a paywall is seriously reducing interest in the regional game in Wales?

Would you be OK with Friday night and Sunday games ? After all we're told that having not having games on a Saturday is seriously reducing interest in the regional game in Wales?

Would you be OK with not qualifying for the European Cup as the English teams take all the top spots? Actually forget that one, not applicable :-)

To get into bed with the English you don't need to put pressure on them - just rock up to PRL HQ with a suitcase full (and I mean really full) of cold hard cash, I don't think they're bothered where from.

Tell them how much you are prepared to bring to the party and for how long and then you'll be in the Premiership faster than you can say "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" !

It's really that easy.

TBH I have no real problem with PPV TV, but I do have a problem on the provider. Premier Sports do not really offer anything other than rugby, for the most part. Unless you like 2nd rate American sports, or Irish sports, there is not really any interest on PS for the UK viewer.

At least if it were on SKY or BT, you could coat tail onto the football, or cricket, or formula 1. That is the issue for me. thumbsup

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:45 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

Would you be happy with that on PPV TV or would it have to be on BBC Wales for free? After all we're told that having games behind a paywall is seriously reducing interest in the regional game in Wales?

You've not been told that by me. I'm all for a pay wall.

Would you be OK with Friday night and Sunday games ? After all we're told that having not having games on a Saturday is seriously reducing interest in the regional game in Wales?p

I think I'd be OK with Monday morning 10am games if this competition went ahead.

Would you be OK with not qualifying for the European Cup as the English teams take all the top spots?

My team isn't in it at the moment. So, err, yes.

To get into bed with the English you don't need to put pressure on them - just rock up to PRL HQ with a suitcase full (and I mean really full) of cold hard cash, I don't think they're bothered where from.

You do the libel, I'll do the rugby.


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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:52 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:

You do the libel, I'll do the rugby.


Ironic given your "racist" jibe earlier

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:55 pm

BamBam wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

You do the libel, I'll do the rugby.


Ironic given your "racist" jibe earlier

That's just a fact by the looks of things.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:56 pm

"You do the libel, I'll do the rugby"

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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:01 pm

For what the Welsh should do now is take their CVC money that the WRU will get and buy the other three teams.
Once they have done this they are free to do the Irish or Scottish model and reap the rewards of synergy or as some like to call it corruption.
Until they controll professional rugby in Wales and are the sole people responsible for it the WRU don't seem to want to act (and rightly so as they aren't there to make the owners rich).  We saw the problems they had when trying to improve the Dragons.  If they controlled all 4 teams they could tell the other three to sod off when asking for more money.

While Edinburgh may not make a profit the SRU do so can build up the Pro teams as part of their ownership of Scottish Rugby and are not allowed to walk away from Scottish Rugby.

To be fair I am surprised the SRU haven't looked to take over one of the Welsh teams to help out the cash strapped Welsh.  If they took over Ospreys they could even call themselves Swansea. Surely the reported 5m a year they are looking to invest would go a nice way to balance the books and maybe get a few more Lions in South Africa.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:07 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ignoring the English wums on here with their anti-Welsh agenda. There seems to be a lot of Irish supporters who are very strongly against this ?

Can I ask why ? Genuinely ?

Being opposed to something is all fine, but there is almost a strong, strong resistance to this from our Irish members on here.

The way I look at it, to compete in a world, where the juggernaut that is football and the way it is going in the British Isles is smothering all other sports, then this is the only way forward. England cricket has just won the world cup, now that sport is on the map, the last thing we want is the sport we love getting left behind.

We must evolve with the times, a B&I rugby union league would be massive. Everybody would be clamouring to get a piece of it, the TV companies would be fighting tooth and nail for it, sponsors would be throwing themselves at it.

I cannot see anything but good for ALL our countries if this were to happen.

Because their engineering and manipulation of rugby and opaque finances would have to stop.

This is utter nonsense and the usual ramblings from a tiny minority of fans who see a conspiracy in everything.  Plenty of unions have control and management of club or provincial teams in their jurisdiction.  Claiming it is corrupt just because some unions don’t is not a reason.    Saying someone or some body is corrupt is claiming they are acting dishonestly in way that they personally gain or benefit financially from the competition.   Players in Irish provinces are free to choose to play wherever they like, as has been proven over the last two decades.  Some choose to move to other clubs outside Ireland, others choose to move to other provinces inside Ireland.


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:07 pm

Brendan wrote:For what the Welsh should do now is take their CVC money that the WRU will get and buy the other three teams. Once they have done this they are free to do the Irish or Scottish model and reap the rewards of synergy or as some like to call it corruption.

You're assuming that :

1) It will be enough £ from a CVC deal
2) 4 independent businesses all want to sell to the Union after 20 years of hard work.
3) The WRU magically have the £10m - £15m per year it will take to run the said 4 teams.


Other than that, your logic is spot on. Very Happy

Until they controll professional rugby in Wales and are the sole people responsible for it the WRU don't seem to want to act (and rightly so as they aren't there to make the owners rich).  We saw the problems they had when trying to improve the Dragons.  If they controlled all 4 teams they could tell the other three to sod off when asking for more money.

.

Same as most of your posts Brendan - you don't tell us where the money to pay for anything will come from.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:11 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

This is utter nonsense and the usual ramblings from a tiny minority of fans who see a conspiracy in everything.  Plenty of unions have control and management of club or provincial teams in their jurisdiction.  Claiming it is corrupt just because some teams don’t is not a reason.

Nope. It's corruption. That's why it was outlawed in the English league. That's why it's outlawed in any competent sport.

Saying someone or some body is corrupt is claiming they are acting dishonestly in way that they personally gain or benefit financially from the competition.  

Erm, that's exactly what happens. Except dishonesty becomes semantic - because World Rugby allows Unions to do it - but not anybody else. Funny that.

Players in Irish provinces are free to choose to play wherever they like, as has been proven over the last two decades.  Some choose to move to other clubs outside Ireland, others choose to move to other provinces inside Ireland.  

Don't see the relevance sorry. Just because players can play for Racing 92, doesn't mean that what the IRFU is doing changes.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:11 pm

In case this was missed by our Irish members on here earlier, as  nobody has answered, I asked this question :-

There seems to be a lot of Irish supporters who are very strongly against this. Can I ask why ? Genuinely ?

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:15 pm


Ok guys time for you guys to cool off a bit as this thread is descending the wrong way rapidly..!

I don’t want to close this thread. I want to see people posting with no reason for other posters to get antagonised...!

It’s a nice sunny warm day. Go have a cold beer and relax a bit.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:18 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

This is utter nonsense and the usual ramblings from a tiny minority of fans who see a conspiracy in everything.  Plenty of unions have control and management of club or provincial teams in their jurisdiction.  Claiming it is corrupt just because some teams don’t is not a reason.

Nope. It's corruption. That's why it was outlawed in the English league. That's why it's outlawed in any competent sport.

Saying someone or some body is corrupt is claiming they are acting dishonestly in way that they personally gain or benefit financially from the competition.  

Erm, that's exactly what happens. Except dishonesty becomes semantic - because World Rugby allows Unions to do it - but not anybody else. Funny that.

Players in Irish provinces are free to choose to play wherever they like, as has been proven over the last two decades.  Some choose to move to other clubs outside Ireland, others choose to move to other provinces inside Ireland.  

Don't see the relevance sorry. Just because players can play for Racing 92, doesn't mean that what the IRFU is doing changes.

Well if you can’t see the relevance in comparison to your previous comments about moving players around, there’s not much point in attempting a discussion with you.

Rant away to your heart’s content.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

Well if you can’t see the relevance in comparison to your previous comments about moving players around, there’s not much point in attempting a discussion with you.  

Rant away to your heart’s content.

Yeah I really don't think there's any point discussing anything with you either.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:28 pm

But apart from the money the selfishness the fact barely anyone wants this I think it's a really good idea

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:32 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

This is utter nonsense and the usual ramblings from a tiny minority of fans who see a conspiracy in everything.  Plenty of unions have control and management of club or provincial teams in their jurisdiction.  Claiming it is corrupt just because some teams don’t is not a reason.

Nope. It's corruption. That's why it was outlawed in the English league. That's why it's outlawed in any competent sport.

Saying someone or some body is corrupt is claiming they are acting dishonestly in way that they personally gain or benefit financially from the competition.  

Erm, that's exactly what happens. Except dishonesty becomes semantic - because World Rugby allows Unions to do it - but not anybody else. Funny that.

Players in Irish provinces are free to choose to play wherever they like, as has been proven over the last two decades.  Some choose to move to other clubs outside Ireland, others choose to move to other provinces inside Ireland.  

Don't see the relevance sorry. Just because players can play for Racing 92, doesn't mean that what the IRFU is doing changes.

Well if you can’t see the relevance in comparison to your previous comments about moving players around, there’s not much point in attempting a discussion with you.  

Rant away to your heart’s content.

Careful Pot, he'll call you a racist if you disagree with him

Obviously maesteg has the beer goggles on so has failed to spot it while "moderating"

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:32 pm

maestegmafia wrote:It’s a nice sunny warm day. Go have a cold beer and relax a bit.

Laugh

I've got to be honest with you meas, of all the moderating on here, and I have had my fare share of moderation. Whistle

This is without out doubt the best bit of moderating I have ever seen. I am going to take you up on this advice, and go and have a cold crisp one in the restaurant by my shop. This is the best idea in ages. Ale

Be back in about an hour.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:34 pm

BamBam wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

This is utter nonsense and the usual ramblings from a tiny minority of fans who see a conspiracy in everything.  Plenty of unions have control and management of club or provincial teams in their jurisdiction.  Claiming it is corrupt just because some teams don’t is not a reason.

Nope. It's corruption. That's why it was outlawed in the English league. That's why it's outlawed in any competent sport.

Saying someone or some body is corrupt is claiming they are acting dishonestly in way that they personally gain or benefit financially from the competition.  

Erm, that's exactly what happens. Except dishonesty becomes semantic - because World Rugby allows Unions to do it - but not anybody else. Funny that.

Players in Irish provinces are free to choose to play wherever they like, as has been proven over the last two decades.  Some choose to move to other clubs outside Ireland, others choose to move to other provinces inside Ireland.  

Don't see the relevance sorry. Just because players can play for Racing 92, doesn't mean that what the IRFU is doing changes.

Well if you can’t see the relevance in comparison to your previous comments about moving players around, there’s not much point in attempting a discussion with you.  

Rant away to your heart’s content.

Careful Pot, he'll call you a racist if you disagree with him

Obviously maesteg has the beer goggles on so has failed to spot it while "moderating"

We try so hard to politely advise you on not making life hard for us. I asked you to cut it out now take the weekend of the site and enjoy the good weather

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:36 pm

Has Bam been banned because he pointed out hes been called a racist for no reason? What about the guy calling the irish corrupt?

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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:39 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:For what the Welsh should do now is take their CVC money that the WRU will get and buy the other three teams. Once they have done this they are free to do the Irish or Scottish model and reap the rewards of synergy or as some like to call it corruption.

You're assuming that :

1) It will be enough £ from a CVC deal
2) 4 independent businesses all want to sell to the Union after 20 years of hard work.
3) The WRU magically have the £10m - £15m per year it will take to run the said 4 teams.


Other than that, your logic is spot on.  Very Happy

Until they controll professional rugby in Wales and are the sole people responsible for it the WRU don't seem to want to act (and rightly so as they aren't there to make the owners rich).  We saw the problems they had when trying to improve the Dragons.  If they controlled all 4 teams they could tell the other three to sod off when asking for more money.

.

Same as most of your posts Brendan - you don't tell us where the money to pay for anything will come from.

Scots seem to do fine at running 2 teams and the Irish do fine running 4 teams.  The Welsh will need to work that one out themselves.  As we are constantly told it is one of the poorest places in Western Europe.  As a result cost of business should be cheaper. The WRU earns more than the IRFU yet seem incapable of getting the same value. There is obviously alot of waste or poor use of funds that will need to be dealt with and used more wisely.

Of the four teams 1 is purchased one had talks about it and one has been in talks to either not exist or be bought out. Only those pesky Scarlets will be hard to win over. The WRU can simply say we are only entering union owned teams into the Pro14 from a certain date and then sign up the players that would be realised by the regions giving players a signing on fee. The WRU seemed ready to fund North Wales at the drop of a hat.

Options could include but limited to
1. Ask the SRU for that £5m a year they were looking to invest in the Premership
2. Hire the guys who turned around Scottish finances
3. Ask the IRFU to run the WRU for a few years
4. Sell team naming rights to the PRL (names could include the "PRL are amazing Ospreys" or the "B&I league Dragons" etc)
5. Reduce the amount paid to internationals for representing Wales
6. Have a second Judgement day
7. Link Wales tickets to having attended at least 5 regional games per season.
8. Own up to the Welsh Premiership being amateur and withdraw funding.
9. Ask the WOL to teach them how to do marketing
10.  Sell 49% of the union to CVC and a Simillar amount to BT

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has Bam been banned because he pointed out hes been called a racist for no reason? What about the guy calling the irish corrupt?

Everyone was asked politely to chill out. If you don’t want to we will give you the time to do so.

It’s only a game, there is no reason for you to want or need to antagonise everyone

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:44 pm

Me specifically? Is that a warning? Cant see the red?

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 3:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Me specifically? Is that a warning? Cant see the red?




Take the weekend off to think about it..!

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 4:11 pm

Well, I have just come back after enjoying a very nice pint of staropramen, and it's all kicked off. Oh well, back to work....

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 4:11 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Me specifically? Is that a warning? Cant see the red?




Take the weekend off to think about it..!

Problem is that everything eventually comes down to the "corrupt Irish" doing down the Welsh regions who would be doing great if only the Irish would let them leave the PRO14. When you point out the realities of the situation - namely that the problems in Welsh rugby are in Wales and for Welsh rugby to solve, then that's even further evidence of Ireland holding them back.

Wales is the only country in the world with a rugby tradition and heritage equivalent to New Zealand, every town of more than a few hundred inhabitants seems to have a rugby team, and at international level they have a great stadium and one of the best teams in the world, who rightly should be among the favourites for the RWC this year. If the WRU/Regions/amateur game/fans could get their heads together and decide how to move forward as a unit.

At the moment the Welsh pro game has the worst of both worlds, privately owned clubs with not enough funding to match the bigger teams, a union that doesn't know what it's doing half the time and fans who have a love/hate relationship with their union and the teams. It could be so much different and better.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 4:21 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:At the moment the Welsh pro game has the worst of both worlds, privately owned clubs with not enough funding to match the bigger teams, a union that doesn't know what it's doing half the time and fans who have a love/hate relationship with their union and the teams. It could be so much different and better.


I don't have a love/hate with anything in Welsh rugby, well, except for those lot in Pontypridd, oh and those lot in Cardiff, and perhaps those lot in Ebbw Vale.... hang on... I'll get my coat.


On a serious note, you have kind of hit the nail on the head with your every village comment, and that's our problem more than anything, there is far too much rugby to support, and not enough people, in Wales, we just do not have enough time and money to be in two places at once, and for the most part a lot of people cannot afford to support their local team and their region.

We also have two successful ish football teams, to contend with, Newport have a football team in the football league, as do my home town in the lower leagues, then there is Wrexham, not to mention Glamorgan County cricket.

There is just not enough people.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 4:53 pm

Don’t throw the football thing in their, LD. The article you posted/linked in WOL the other day said there was an extensive survey done and it found only a tiny percentage of sports fans in Wales attend both the football and the rugby, with few genuinely passionate about both. I’ve been at welsh football matches where they’ve cheered when Cardiff Blues or Wales have lost in the rugby! Any self respecting football fan in Wales hates egg chasing with a passion. In the vast majority of cases they’re not the same fans that football and rugby clubs are chasing. It’s a red herring.
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Post by The Oracle on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 4:55 pm

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:For what the Welsh should do now is take their CVC money that the WRU will get and buy the other three teams. Once they have done this they are free to do the Irish or Scottish model and reap the rewards of synergy or as some like to call it corruption.

You're assuming that :

1) It will be enough £ from a CVC deal
2) 4 independent businesses all want to sell to the Union after 20 years of hard work.
3) The WRU magically have the £10m - £15m per year it will take to run the said 4 teams.


Other than that, your logic is spot on.  Very Happy

Until they controll professional rugby in Wales and are the sole people responsible for it the WRU don't seem to want to act (and rightly so as they aren't there to make the owners rich).  We saw the problems they had when trying to improve the Dragons.  If they controlled all 4 teams they could tell the other three to sod off when asking for more money.

.

Same as most of your posts Brendan - you don't tell us where the money to pay for anything will come from.

Scots seem to do fine at running 2 teams and the Irish do fine running 4 teams.  The Welsh will need to work that one out themselves.  As we are constantly told it is one of the poorest places in Western Europe.  As a result cost of business should be cheaper.  The WRU earns more than the IRFU yet seem incapable of getting the same value.  There is obviously alot of waste or poor use of funds that will need to be dealt with and used more wisely.

Of the four teams 1 is purchased one had talks about it and one has been in talks to either not exist or be bought out.  Only those pesky Scarlets will be hard to win over.  The WRU can simply say we are only entering union owned teams into the Pro14 from a certain date and then sign up the players that would be realised by the regions giving players a signing on fee.  The WRU seemed ready to fund North Wales at the drop of a hat.

Options could include but limited to
1. Ask the SRU for that £5m a year they were looking to invest in the Premership
2. Hire the guys who turned around Scottish finances
3. Ask the IRFU to run the WRU for a few years
4. Sell team naming rights to the PRL (names could include the "PRL are amazing Ospreys" or the "B&I league Dragons" etc)
5. Reduce the amount paid to internationals for representing Wales
6. Have a second Judgement day
7. Link Wales tickets to having attended at least 5 regional games per season.
8. Own up to the Welsh Premiership being amateur and withdraw funding.
9. Ask the WOL to teach them how to do marketing
10.  Sell 49% of the union to CVC and a Simillar amount to BT


The mods suggested drinking a beer not a keg! RedWine
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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:35 pm

Thanks,

Its was only after posting I saw all the red pen stuff and thought to myself what have you done

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Post by Cyril on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:29 pm

Maestegmafia will be over in the morning to ban you. Well, only if he’s being fair n’all Wink

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Post by Lagon on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:48 pm

Guys, chill. I doubt any of this is really going to happen. It might, but let's see the details before getting into a rage.
The Welsh Regions are in a bad way at the moment. Can't blame them looking outside for their messiah.
It's always been internal. Even Philbb would agree. KIDA hangs on to his coattails.Just have a look at the xenophobic comments on nugwalad...Hate crimes?
Heads up, let them do it without the Irish. Not going to happen. Simon said so.

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Post by BigGee on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 8:57 am

This thread is on life support now and will be closed down unless posters stop all the provocative behaviour. It does seem a shame that every thread that discusses the Pro 14 does seem to go the same way, something that may be worthy of some self reflection

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 9:28 am

To quote a post on Twitter I read recently:

“Many of us (in Wales) want a B&I League because we prefer the idea of cross-border comp with the English - we can want this without it being a slur/insult/comment on Pro14 and the teams in it.

As for selfish - that's a silly thing to throw around. Every team/union is in it for themselves”.

Remember, very few on here and elsewhere are advocating an Anglo-Welsh league. Rather, we’re talking about keep what we have and adding in the English. There’s a million reasons why it won’t happen, why the Irish won’t go for it, why the English don’t benefit, etc. Doesn’t mean it lacks appeal to some.
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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 9:30 am

The Oracle wrote:To quote a post on Twitter I read recently:

“Many of us (in Wales) want a B&I League because we prefer the idea of cross-border comp with the English - we can want this without it being a slur/insult/comment on Pro14 and the teams in it.

As for selfish - that's a silly thing to throw around. Every team/union is in it for themselves”.

Remember, very few on here and elsewhere are advocating an Anglo-Welsh league. Rather, we’re talking about keep what we have and adding in the English. There’s a million reasons why it won’t happen, why the Irish won’t go for it, why the English don’t benefit, etc. Doesn’t mean it lacks appeal to some.

What I want to know is, why the Irish are so against it. I have asked the question, more than once, but our Irish members on here are not inclined to answer it for what ever reasons. Headscratch

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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 9:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:To quote a post on Twitter I read recently:

“Many of us (in Wales) want a B&I League because we prefer the idea of cross-border comp with the English - we can want this without it being a slur/insult/comment on Pro14 and the teams in it.

As for selfish - that's a silly thing to throw around. Every team/union is in it for themselves”.

Remember, very few on here and elsewhere are advocating an Anglo-Welsh league. Rather, we’re talking about keep what we have and adding in the English. There’s a million reasons why it won’t happen, why the Irish won’t go for it, why the English don’t benefit, etc. Doesn’t mean it lacks appeal to some.

What I want to know is, why the Irish are so against it. I have asked the question, more than once, but our Irish members on here are not inclined to answer it for what ever reasons. Headscratch

I don't think the Irish are against it at all, as I posted above it would bring in more money for the teams, the tourist trade would do well out of travelling fans from England, the prospect of a rugby weekend in Dublin or Belfast would appeal to a lot of English club fans and of course the chance to play against some of the best teams in Europe as well as the Welsh :-)

I'd suggest that once the idea is actually floated as a business proposition there will be questions around how it would work, would it be conference based, a two division system, where would the team slot in, e.g. would the first division teams be the teams that qualify for the HEC at the end of the season, 6 PRO14 and 6 English, what happens to the Italian sides (politically it would be very difficult to chuck the Italian pro sides out whilst keeping them in the 6Ns) maybe they could be persuaded to join the French league?, what the safeguards are around player release, how would the Irish and Scottish models of union ownership work with the PRL owners/sugar daddy system, how does the salary cap work - would there be a salary cap, promotion/relegation, adding new teams, etc.

I'd assume that all the proposed participants would be asking similar questions and the English rugby Championship clubs would probably have something to say about where they fit in.


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Post by profitius on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 9:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:To quote a post on Twitter I read recently:

“Many of us (in Wales) want a B&I League because we prefer the idea of cross-border comp with the English - we can want this without it being a slur/insult/comment on Pro14 and the teams in it.

As for selfish - that's a silly thing to throw around. Every team/union is in it for themselves”.

Remember, very few on here and elsewhere are advocating an Anglo-Welsh league. Rather, we’re talking about keep what we have and adding in the English. There’s a million reasons why it won’t happen, why the Irish won’t go for it, why the English don’t benefit, etc. Doesn’t mean it lacks appeal to some.

What I want to know is, why the Irish are so against it. I have asked the question, more than once, but our Irish members on here are not inclined to answer it for what ever reasons. Headscratch


I don't think we (Irish) are very against it but we don't think its going to happen. Where is all the money coming from.


Personally I'm against it for a few reasons.
- we've started building the pro14 into a competitive competition so why not keep going.

- the English could always decide to go it alone again in the future leaving the Celts needing to rebuild the pro?? from scratch.

- the Italians should be included. I believe in having some loyalty to them. They've a massive market to tap into too. When they'll start challenging for trophies then we'll see more Italian money coming into the league.

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Post by BigGee on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:12 am

I don't think it would work in a straight league format, as the prospect of being in division 2 would be a complete downer for those teams and their players would naturally drift off to the higher division, making it very hard for them to gain promotion and to stay up in the future.

If it was to be done in a multi-conference format, you would then have all the problems that super rugby has developed, who plays who and when.

I also agree about the Italian sides as well, are they not fully paid up members of the Celtic league now, so they would surely have a say and the right to compete as well.

The European competition is different and it is special, there is a lot to lose there if we went away from it and I think a B&I league +/- the Italians would inevitably devalue it and possibly render it unnecessary.

On face value, there are clearly attractions to this proposal, but be aware that there are downsides to it as well.

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:15 am

It’s a fair call. There are huge concerns with regards to the amalgamation of the different leagues in to one. But the unifying factor is a common goal. We want to see excellent competitive rugby that improves our club/Region/provincial teams and strengthens our international side.

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:16 am

BigGee wrote:I don't think it would work in a straight league format, as the prospect of being in division 2 would be a complete downer for those teams and their players would naturally drift off to the higher division, making it very hard for them to gain promotion and to stay up in the future.

If it was to be done in a multi-conference format, you would then have all the problems that super rugby has developed, who plays who and when.

I also agree about the Italian sides as well, are they not fully paid up members of the Celtic league now, so they would surely have a say and the right to compete as well.

The European competition is different and it is special, there is a lot to lose there if we went away from it and I think a B&I league +/- the Italians would inevitably devalue it and possibly render it unnecessary.

On face value, there are clearly attractions to this proposal, but be aware that there are downsides to it as well.

Well said

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:18 am

If we want to keep up with other professional sports then this is the only way we can go. At the moment, British and Irish rugby is not sustainable at this level, never mind trying to keep up with other sports, and getting to the next level.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to keep up with other professional sports then this is the only way we can go. At the moment, British and Irish rugby is not sustainable at this level, never mind trying to keep up with other sports, and getting to the next level.

They know deep down it is going to happen. They just don't want to risk the good thing they've got going in the Pro14 - which enables them to have success in Europe by resting so many stars in the league. If there was a British and Irish League, they wouldn't be able to do that as much.

Munster CEO:

Despite giving his backing to what he believes is an improving Pro12, he would welcome the inception of a British and Irish league.

“It is something that will be discussed in the future but the current Aviva Premiership clubs have a good deal. It will take a little bit to tempt them into that but given the Irish population that lives in England, it is certainly attractive having Irish teams going in.

“They have to look at what bringing the teams in would bring to the market itself.

“If you want to compete long-term with what’s going on in France TV-wise, that’s probably the ultimate goal.”

Keith Wood:

"For me, there always has been a - I can't say it's a perfect route but a good route is I still believe in having a league system based with Britain and Ireland. The idea of trying to amalgamate and come to some agreement where you could have England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales playing almost as in a Lions League and then you fit in a Lions tour at the end of the every four years that can be factored in properly. I mean, there's an awful lot of work that would have to be done to make that happen but that doesn't mean that would be the wrong thing to happen.

There would be a different divvy up of the spend. But that seems like the most comfortable fit for this to fit into the Northern Hemisphere calendar. We know that if it does fit into the Northern Hemisphere, it can fit into the Southern Hemisphere."  

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:51 am



Hi SF, you really do not need to patronise me, I listen just fine.

All the reasons you posted above are your reasons. I honestly do not see this as turkeys voting for Christmas, honestly, you will have to explain to me, how this is turkeys voting for Christmas.

You cannot stop progress, either you are on the bus, or you are not. This is the future, pro rugby is not sustainable in it's current guise, far to many enterprises are not making money on their own esteem.

None of the reason you posted above really hold any clout. It seems to me, that you are worried about upsetting the good thing you have at the minute. But nothing lasts for ever. OK

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