England v Argentina - 09.00 GMT, 05/10/19 - Match thread

[BamBam]

First topic message reminder :

England: 15. Elliot Daly; 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Manu Tuilagi, 12. Owen Farrell (c), 11. Jonny May; 10. George Ford, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Joe Marler, 2. Jamie George, 3. Kyle Sinckler; 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis; 6. Tom Curry, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17. Mako Vunipola, 18. Dan Cole, 19. Courtney Lawes, 20. Lewis Ludlam, 21. Willi Heinz, 22. Henry Slade, 23. Jack Nowell.

Argentina: 15. Emiliano Boffelli, 14. Matías Moroni, 13. Matias Orlando, 12. Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11. Santiago Carreras, 10. Benjamin Urdapilleta, 9. Tomas Cubelli, 8. Javier Ortega Desio, 7. Marcos Kremer, 6. Pablo Matera (c), 5. Tomas Lavanini, 4. Guido Petti Pagadizabal, 3. Juan Figallo, 2. Julian Montoya, 1. Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro

Replacements: 16. Agustín Creevy, 17. Mayco Vivas, 18. Santiago Medrano, 19. Matias Alemanno, 20. Tomas Lezana, 21. Felipe Ezcurra, 22. Lucas Mensa, 23. Bautista Delguy

Thought it was time for a match thread

[Soul Requiem]

Most important thing is confirming that quarter final place.

[alfie]

Oh well. Job done . 39-10 over Argentina nothing to complain about , I guess. Just thought it was all a bit messy but I suppose Eddie will be content as long as they keep things going against France.
Hope Marler wasn't injured badly.

[Geordie]

Well...solid, unspectacular win. Job done.

Hopefully not too energy sapping . Few injuries.

Bring on France.

Need to sort out the back three....not convinced on Daly still (as you can probsbly tell)

[kingelderfield]

Playing halfcock is always a recipe for injuries.
Rugby is a fullbore game, maximum creativity, maximum physicality.

[EnglishReign]

I feel like in every game we've just done 'enough'. It almost looks like we're labouring to victories but I'm really hoping there's more to come.

Argentina is always a bruising encounter and they raise their game v Eng as it is, let alone in a must win game.

Can't complain. Run out for Slade, Mako, Nowell, BP and hopefully no injuries.

[maestegmafia]

Good win. Didn’t need to get out of second gear and looking in good shape for the knockout stages. Glad to see Argies knocked out.

Yes Score line looks good especially considering the amount of missed kicks, what’s that an extra 11 points...?

Performance wise like you said hardly got out of first gear.. Is that good though. You played tougher warm up games than you’ve had in the RWC so far. But the teams ahead of you are likely to be far more challenging. There should be plenty left in the tank for the later stages.

[maestegmafia]

I feel like in every game we've just done 'enough'. It almost looks like we're labouring to victories but I'm really hoping there's more to come.

Argentina is always a bruising encounter and they raise their game v Eng as it is, let alone in a must win game.

Can't complain. Run out for Slade, Mako, Nowell, BP and hopefully no injuries.

It felt the same as a welsh fan in the Six nations but boded well in the end..!

What did Churchill say, “why stand when you can sit? Why sit when you can lie?”

[EnglishReign]

Youngs' box kicking is awful though. I'd play Nowell, Watson, May as a back 3 and have Daly coming on to play on the wing if needs be.

[LondonTiger]

Good win. Didn’t need to get out of second gear and looking in good shape for the knockout stages. Glad to see Argies knocked out.

Yes Score line looks good especially considering the amount of missed kicks, what’s that an extra 11 points...?

Performance wise like you said hardly got out of first gear.. Is that good though. You played tougher warm up games than you’ve had in the RWC so far. But the teams ahead of you are likely to be far more challenging. There should be plenty left in the tank for the later stages.

To be honest how many tough games have any sides really had? NZ/SA and Wales/Aus had theirs early. Each game for England is getting tougher than the last. Quite a nice schedule really.

[Soul Requiem]

There is very little point hitting peak form at this point in time, we were always likely to beat Argentina and France with little fuss so the quarter final is when we should be looking to perform.

[mikey_dragon]

Good win. Didn’t need to get out of second gear and looking in good shape for the knockout stages. Glad to see Argies knocked out.

Model fan, great humility

[LondonTiger]

Youngs' box kicking is awful though. I'd play Nowell, Watson, May as a back 3 and have Daly coming on to play on the wing if needs be.

I thought Daly was excellent today. 

Was sat in a pub having breakfast with my nephew surrounded by people who spent the whole game abusing Ford, describing him and Youngs as wasted selections in the squad (very vocal Cipriani supporters)

[lostinwales]

I understand why people might be frustrated by this, and I know we have not been really stretched, but we have stayed in control over 4 hours of rugby and hardly given up a chance.

And we score tries.

[LondonTiger]

Good win. Didn’t need to get out of second gear and looking in good shape for the knockout stages. Glad to see Argies knocked out.

Model fan, great humility

To be fair Argentina spent most of the time trying to rough up England (and get someone sent off for retaliation). Worst for them it was Matera and Creevy, their leaders, at the forefront with lots of off the ball assaults. If they had concentrated on playing they would have caused more problems.

At times England were very good, but for much of it they stuttered.

[Rinsure]

Decent hit-out. Thought that was Daly's best game in an England shirt for a good while. Perhaps he's going to come good at 15 in the nick of time.

Bit of a grunt up front, thought Marler played well, and Itoje too. Back row were solid if unspectacular (one tackle by Underhill aside).

Youngs, apart from his try, was dreadful. Box kicking way off, pass slow and inaccurate, slow to the breakdown. I've been an advocate of Youngs in the past, but he's really not doing it at the moment.

The rest of the back line performed well. Nowell had no right to score his try!

[LondonTiger]

Youngs was a bit meh (as was Billy) yet things got worse when Heinz came on.

[Steffan]

I missed the second half but I seen the ITV panel at the end and they all looked quite smug and pleased with themselves so I assume England played well in it?

[lostinwales]

I missed the second half but I seen the ITV panel at the end and they all looked quite smug and pleased with themselves so I assume England played well in it?

Well enough. Hand on heart you didn't miss anything that won't come up in a short highlights reel.

[No 7&1/2]

Yup. Really easy win.

[Barney McGrew did it]

A few points for me:

A red card tackle in a KO game, WTF Argies?!

A great win for England of course. Personally I’d give MOM to the roadrunner – this guy plays at least at 9/10 all the time. Mind you Underhill was excellent.

Some people are concerned that Daley’s high ball & last-ditch tackle issues will cost us a game – he did pretty well in defence. Of massively greater concern is just how average Youngs has become – would any top 5 side have him at the moment? Eddie’s biggest mistake.

Another ‘can’t be dropped player’, Billy, would currently probably not be missed that much.

I’m a little worried about how easily we can switch off for short periods – enough even for a losing 14-man Argie side to score. Also OF looked a bit dazed for quite a while – maybe should have been swapped early?

[gregortree]

Red

[gregortree]

Youngs' box kicking is awful though. I'd play Nowell, Watson, May as a back 3 and have Daly coming on to play on the wing if needs be.

I thought Daly was excellent today. 

Was sat in a pub having breakfast with my nephew surrounded by people who spent the whole game abusing Ford, describing him and Youngs as wasted selections in the squad (very vocal Cipriani supporters)

Didn't realise you were having breakfast in Gloucester, Tiger :

[TightHEAD]

Solid professional performance against a team now use to playing NZ, Aus and SA who was also treating this game as a world cup final.

Not a thing of beauty but a bonus point win.

Keep it going lads and well played.

[TightHEAD]

What is going on with these wet greasy balls!

Has Gilbert redesigned the grip on them?

[alfie]

What's all the dissing of Daly ? I thought he played rather well , and I'm not usually a fan of his.

Also liked Ford's display today. One of his best games

[robbo277]

8/9 didn't fire, really hoping they peak at the right time. Ford was class though.

Farrell and Manu were a little quiet but the back 3 were all lively and Daly was solid.

In the pack the tight 5 were efficient and the flankers were immense.

Second game in a row someone's smashed Farrell in the head. Both times effectively dealt with though.

[LondonTiger]

Daly played well, but those who are against his selection will never change their view.

[majesticimperialman]

When you think about it Argentina down to 14 men for most of the game, did not give up putting England under pressure and kept on to make a game to remember.

Still not the best performance from England, things to work on for next weeks game against France. It will of course depend on which French team turn up. I am expecting a strong performance from France against England. But hope fully England will come away with another win to make it a clean sweep.

[Poorfour]

What is going on with these wet greasy balls!

Has Gilbert redesigned the grip on them?

Surprisingly enough, yes. Allegedly it has two sizes of pimples which improves grip while not affecting the flight of kicks. Doesn’t seem to be working, though.

At least every side seems to be affected fairly evenly, unlike the awful 2011 ball which some teams seemed to be able to kick straight while others couldn’t.

[Poorfour]

Anyway, one note of concern for England is Marler looking a bit pained coming off. He has been very impressive in the setpiece and defence (as in setting up Itoje’s rip with a huge tackle and legdrive), and England are a better team with him on the pitch.

With Mako back and Genge available, they can probably afford to rest him next weekend, but Eddie will be hoping that whatever it was is not too serious.

[hugehandoff]

To qualify for the KO stages with a game in hand against Argentina I should be very pleased, especially as almost 4 years to the day when we crashed out of our own party! But I am underwhelmed. A flat performance which had the sting removed by the red card. Too much aimless kicking, which drives me nuts.

We will need to be massively better in the 1/4s so I hope for an uplift next week to show progress. Job done today, but little else to worry the genuine title contenders.

[Collapse2005]

Another game ruined by a dumb red, sucks if you are a fan and travelled all the way there to see a good game.

[gregortree]

What is going on with these wet greasy balls!

......?

......is what my wife asked me.

[Collapse2005]

Solid professional performance against a team now use to playing NZ, Aus and SA who was also treating this game as a world cup final.

Not a thing of beauty but a bonus point win.

Keep it going lads and well played.

Id say they were treating it as a must win pool match, not a world cup final.

[hugehandoff]

Another game ruined by a dumb red, sucks if you are a fan and travelled all the way there to see a good game.

Annoying for the fans I agree and some of my mates were there today, but even more annoying for the players who have their careers cut short due to concussion and have the quality of their life's impacted. Trying to make the game safer is the right thing to do, but implementing rule changes should be done well before the RWCs to ensure no nasty surprises and to ensure consistent refereeing. The guy deserved to be sent off today, but for the sake of the match I was hoping for only a yellow, which the guidelines did not allow.

[formerly known as Sam]

Feel a little for Lavanini because he's clearly bent at the waist and Farrell is dropping as he braces for impact. We've seen lots of those not given as red cards, even for England against the USA, Samoa got away with about three the other weekend with two as yellows. Arguably the Samoan ones were worse. With the high tackle witch hunt coming from world rugby as soon as Nigel was told to review, even though he'd already called no foul play twice over the mic in play, you knew he was going to flash the red.

Worries for England, Billy V carrying a niggle and playing at about 75% and Farrell looked really poor. His kicking for goal was awful and as a support runner he was anonymous leaving Ford isolated where he should have been there for the pass.

Youngs looked a little more lively than in previous weeks. All three England flankers looked the business.

[Collapse2005]

Another game ruined by a dumb red, sucks if you are a fan and travelled all the way there to see a good game.

Annoying for the fans I agree and some of my mates were there today, but even more annoying for the players who have their careers cut short due to concussion and have the quality of their life's impacted. Trying to make the game safer is the right thing to do, but implementing rule changes should be done well before the RWCs to ensure no nasty surprises and to ensure consistent refereeing. The guy deserved to be sent off today, but for the sake of the match I was hoping for only a yellow, which the guidelines did not allow.

Im not saying it shouldnt have been a red Im saying Lavanini ruined the game for everyone. Same with the Italian prop last night.

[Collapse2005]

Feel a little for Lavanini because he's clearly bent at the waist and Farrell is dropping as he braces for impact. We've seen lots of those not given as red cards, even for England against the USA, Samoa got away with about three the other weekend with two as yellows. Arguably the Samoan ones were worse. With the high tackle witch hunt coming from world rugby as soon as Nigel was told to review, even though he'd already called no foul play twice over the mic in play, you knew he was going to flash the red.

Worries for England, Billy V carrying a niggle and playing at about 75% and Farrell looked really poor. His kicking for goal was awful and as a support runner he was anonymous leaving Ford isolated where he should have been there for the pass.

Youngs looked a little more lively than in previous weeks. All three England flankers looked the business.

Agree, Farrell was clearly dipping.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I am going to get mullered for this, but I would drop Billy V and play Wilson next week, BV just hasn't played well in the three games to date, we looked better with Wilson on last time and even with Curry at 8.

Workman like performance from England, though the wingers played well but although Daly caught everything today and looked solid under the high ball, he still needs to learn to pass and when to pass, three times the wing would have been away, but he passed too early allowing the cover to get across.

Ludlam got isolated twice, I don't think it was his fault, once an Argentinian was blocking release and it should have been a penalty the other he just had no support when he was tackled. We won't be able to do that against Aus or Wales.

[BamBam]

If Billy is carrying an injury of any sort I'd leave him out against France, Wilson is more than capable of covering 

We need Billy in the knockouts, no risks needed

[LondonTiger]

Solid professional performance against a team now use to playing NZ, Aus and SA who was also treating this game as a world cup final.

Not a thing of beauty but a bonus point win.

Keep it going lads and well played.

Id say they were treating it as a must win pool match, not a world cup final.

Probably, but Ledesma described it as their World Cup final.

[TightHEAD]

It was their final and more, always is vs England, the only thing that would have fired them up more would had been if our bus had a number plate like the top gear one!

[formerly known as Sam]

Feel a little for Lavanini because he's clearly bent at the waist and Farrell is dropping as he braces for impact. We've seen lots of those not given as red cards, even for England against the USA, Samoa got away with about three the other weekend with two as yellows. Arguably the Samoan ones were worse. With the high tackle witch hunt coming from world rugby as soon as Nigel was told to review, even though he'd already called no foul play twice over the mic in play, you knew he was going to flash the red.

Worries for England, Billy V carrying a niggle and playing at about 75% and Farrell looked really poor. His kicking for goal was awful and as a support runner he was anonymous leaving Ford isolated where he should have been there for the pass.

Youngs looked a little more lively than in previous weeks. All three England flankers looked the business.

Agree, Farrell was clearly dipping.

I'd have liked to see it downgraded to a yellow on that basis. Player is dipping and Lavanini is bending at the waist. Those tackles need to be filtered out but it's the American tackle on Farrell or Hodge on Yato that are the far more dangerous ones that need instant action. Where there's no attempt to bend at the waist and a shoulder is used straight to face.

[majesticimperialman]

With Jack Nowell now fit and back in the England team or be it on the bench for this game.

Would like to see Nowell, Cockasigna ( spelling ) playing together. 

Does any one think it might happen come the France game?

[Exiledinborders]

Feel a little for Lavanini because he's clearly bent at the waist and Farrell is dropping as he braces for impact. We've seen lots of those not given as red cards, even for England against the USA, Samoa got away with about three the other weekend with two as yellows. Arguably the Samoan ones were worse. With the high tackle witch hunt coming from world rugby as soon as Nigel was told to review, even though he'd already called no foul play twice over the mic in play, you knew he was going to flash the red.

Worries for England, Billy V carrying a niggle and playing at about 75% and Farrell looked really poor. His kicking for goal was awful and as a support runner he was anonymous leaving Ford isolated where he should have been there for the pass.

Youngs looked a little more lively than in previous weeks. All three England flankers looked the business.

Agree, Farrell was clearly dipping.

I'd have liked to see it downgraded to a yellow on that basis. Player is dipping and Lavanini is bending at the waist. Those tackles need to be filtered out but it's the American tackle on Farrell or Hodge on Yato that are the far more dangerous ones that need instant action. Where there's no attempt to bend at the waist and a shoulder is used straight to face.

Farrell did not dip much. Had Farrell not dipped at all it would have been very high on the chest or possibly neck high. Tacklers need to aim at the lower chest or lower. They then might get the benefit of mitigation. If they tackle so that any small deviation by the ball carrier leads to head contact they are going to get a red card.

[LondonTiger]

With Jack Nowell now fit and back in the England team or be it on the bench for this game.

Would like to see Nowell, Cockasigna ( spelling ) playing together. 

Does any one think it might happen come the France game?

No.

[LondonTiger]

Feel a little for Lavanini because he's clearly bent at the waist and Farrell is dropping as he braces for impact. We've seen lots of those not given as red cards, even for England against the USA, Samoa got away with about three the other weekend with two as yellows. Arguably the Samoan ones were worse. With the high tackle witch hunt coming from world rugby as soon as Nigel was told to review, even though he'd already called no foul play twice over the mic in play, you knew he was going to flash the red.

Worries for England, Billy V carrying a niggle and playing at about 75% and Farrell looked really poor. His kicking for goal was awful and as a support runner he was anonymous leaving Ford isolated where he should have been there for the pass.

Youngs looked a little more lively than in previous weeks. All three England flankers looked the business.

Agree, Farrell was clearly dipping.

I'd have liked to see it downgraded to a yellow on that basis. Player is dipping and Lavanini is bending at the waist. Those tackles need to be filtered out but it's the American tackle on Farrell or Hodge on Yato that are the far more dangerous ones that need instant action. Where there's no attempt to bend at the waist and a shoulder is used straight to face.

Sorry Sam, but Lavanini had to go. His challenge was like a more violent version of the one Spencer was sent off for last season for Tigers.

[Taylorman]

I thought he dipped enough to attract the red, regardless, didn’t warrant a side to be down to 14 for over 60 minutes, in yet another farce of a game. This focus on ‘anything about the head’ means your history has gone far too far one way.

If it’s that bad how come the ‘attacked’ player is bouncing up and scoring tries and kicking goals after they’re ‘evilly and tragically injured’. They’re not that’s why.

Argies line defending was terrible though and leaked three easy tries, but at least they scored the best of the lot in an excellent planned play.
A NZ England semi looks on the cards, cards being the in word it seems.

Looks like we have the best goal kicker as well. Who’d have thought.

[Rinsure]

With Jack Nowell now fit and back in the England team or be it on the bench for this game.

Would like to see Nowell, Cockasigna ( spelling ) playing together. 

Does any one think it might happen come the France game?

Yeah, great to see Nowell hit the ground running after his extended absence. I've not always been his biggest fan, but he's really won me over in the last eighteen months or so. Quality. However, having them all fit is a real selection headache, since they all bring something different to the party, with the possible exception of McConnochie (although I may be doing him a disservice):

May - lethal finisher, pace to burn, kick chasing maestro
Watson - brilliant under the high ball, electric pace
Daly - quick, usually takes the right option, howitzer left boot
Cokanasiga - massive and quick, offers decoy lines for Manu, covers 8
Nowell - strong, nuggetty, pain in the arse for the opposition!
McConnochie - sevens pace... ?

So how to perm three from six? Fair to say Daly is certain, and May is as close as you can get to being a certainty. Watson's done nothing wrong, Nowell showed well when he came on, and I think Big Joe offers a greater midfield threat than anyone else (and opens up space as a result) despite his perceived defensive frailties. Nowell is the likely bench man, I think, as he covers most of the back line... so it's a straight shoot out between Watson and Cokanasiga, with Watson being the man in possession.

Great problem to have, mind you.

Mike who?

[Rinsure]

Oh, and it was a nailed on red. The standards have been set, and there was no way it wasn't going to be red.

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