QF3 - Match Thread - Wales v France - 20/10/19 - K/O 8:15 BST

[Guest]

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

Wales



Team:Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Aaron Wainwright, Justin Tipuric, Josh Navidi.


Reps: Elliot Dee, Rhys Carre, Dillon Lewis, Adam Beard, Ross Moriarty, Tomos Williams, Rhys Patchell, Owen Watkin


France



Team: Medard - Penaud, Vakatawa, Fickou, Huget - Ntamack, Du pont - Ollivon , Alldrit, Lauret -
Vaahamahina, Leroux - Slimani, Guirado (c), Poirot
Bench: Cat, Braille,Sentiano, Gabrillagues, Picamoles, Serin, Lopez, Rattez



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jaco Peyper
AR1: Nic Berry
AR2: Paul Williams
TMO: Marius Joncker

[mikey_dragon]

So both centre's are broken right now, not good... Hopefully it's nothing serious and they do actually recover. It's not ideal given we're up against a big and direct French team.

[majesticimperialman]

France v Wales tough one to call for me.

France have been a bit it and miss scraping win's by  a few point.

Wales although not playing great rugby in any game have done enough to win by holding out teams in the dying minutes.

Will Biggar be fit for this game, who is France's best 10? is he fit?

Will both team's have their best players avalible for this game. Hope so.

[Guest]

France v Wales tough one to call for me.

France have been a bit it and miss scraping win's by  a few point.

Wales although not playing great rugby in any game have done enough to win by holding out teams in the dying minutes.

Will Biggar be fit for this game, who is France's best 10? is he fit?

Will both team's have their best players avalible for this game. Hope so.

By holding out teams in the dying minutes?! Against Australia maybe. But in the other games we pulled away later in the game and scored points ourselves in the dying minutes

[SecretFly]

He was watching upside down.

[RiscaGame]

Much more positive news on our injuries today. Gatland even talked about having the full squad training for the first time in the tournament. Great news.

[Guest]

Gatland sounded weirdly deflated in the post match. Not sure if that was frustration with the game, off field issues...who knows. But lots and lot of sighing when answering fairly mundane questions as well as positives. Not to be an armchair psychologist but who knows what/why that is - hopefully just the game and not the fact North, JD2 etc. are out.

31 players training sounds good - hope it's true. JD2 being out would be a nightmare, the centre pairing was poor today. With Scott Williams playing at the weekend, have to presume he's ok, which is good. Adams is quickly becoming one of Wales' most inteliigent and 'natural' rugby playersr as well. Also speaks well off the field - the move away out of his comfort zone has clearly helped him in numerous ways. Looks like a leader in that squad already, an extra yard of pace to match someone like Johnny May and he'd look like one of the best wingers in the world tbh. Lots I like about Adams, and it's good to see so many of the u20 side 4 years ago coming together in this team - Tomos, Adams, Watkin. The first 2 are some of the best natural rugby players we have.

Who knows what this game has in store. Knowing Wales we'll turn it in to an awkward arm wrestle, but...I dunno. Still think this isn't the one where we trip up. Think we've got enough about the team and the tactics to do a job on France, and punish them often enough to get through this.

Today showed the lack of rugby nous in the team though. In terms of actual tactics, Japan look streets ahead of the likes of Scotland and Ireland with ball in hand, and unfortunately Wales as well. It's all about repetition and practice - and Wales don't prepare to win test matches by playing fast phase play from 9 or 10. Can't remember the last time we saw one of Gatland's trademark last 20 comebacks where we *do* throw the ball about and look good, but it wasn't there today v Uruguay, and I doubt we'll produce much of it against the French, either, who are absolutely going to be the most unpredictable opponent to call in the next 7 days.

Think we're good enough for a SF and then no more, but who knows.

[Pie]

assuming all fit

Jones, Owens, Francis
AWJ, Ball
Wainwright Tips Navidi
Davies Bigs
North, Parkes, JD2, Adams
Liam

Carre, Dee, Lewis, Shingler, Moriarty, Williams, Patchell, Half.

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

[carpet baboon]

France by 10

[robbo277]

I didn't think France would trouble England too much and we never got a chance to see. If Wales can get their strongest squad out then I think Wales defensive game should be able to shackle France's attack and then Wales should be able to nudge ahead in a tight one - Wales won 5 of them this spring just gone.

The tries Fiji scored against them may worry them though, if Wales are even slightly below their best France could hurt them with players like Vakatawa and Raka. If the game opens up it favours France in my opinion.

Narrow, but ultimately comfortable Wales win for me.

[maestegmafia]

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

Very Harsh on Amos there, he was given a few bad passes, can’t blame him for that. Considering the amount of wind and rain during the game and before it’s no surprise there were so many dropped balls

[LordDowlais]

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

Very Harsh on Amos there, he was given a few bad passes, can’t blame him for that. Considering the amount of wind and rain during the game and before it’s no surprise there were so many dropped balls

They were not bad passes, Amos had is positioning all wrong, he was too far infront of his support players when he should have used his brains and took a step back. For me Amos is not an international level player, he is just a very good regional player.

[Old Man]

What are the chances for an upset in this match?

[maestegmafia]

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

Very Harsh on Amos there, he was given a few bad passes, can’t blame him for that. Considering the amount of wind and rain during the game and before it’s no surprise there were so many dropped balls

They were not bad passes, Amos had is positioning all wrong, he was too far infront of his support players when he should have used his brains and took a step back. For me Amos is not an international level player, he is just a very good regional player.

It’s a long time since I played but if I was center and the winger outside was going to be forward I wouldn’t pass it to him.

[maestegmafia]

What are the chances for an upset in this match?

What are the chances of anything against France in a RWC? They could have had straight pool wins BPs in every game or lost three out of four... I think this team has a strength that will make them surprisingly good contenders for the semis. I hope wales can beat that after a rather abject performance in the rain in Kumamoto yesterday.

[gowershowerpower]

I'm hopeful Maes...13 changes! It'll be a totally different side. It won't be out B team. It was a poor performance yesterday, but if those missed tries were scored, as they would on another occasion, it would have been a 50 pointer. Yes, still a poor performance by the B team, but it could have been a 50 pointer.

[LordDowlais]

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

Very Harsh on Amos there, he was given a few bad passes, can’t blame him for that. Considering the amount of wind and rain during the game and before it’s no surprise there were so many dropped balls

They were not bad passes, Amos had is positioning all wrong, he was too far infront of his support players when he should have used his brains and took a step back. For me Amos is not an international level player, he is just a very good regional player.

It’s a long time since I played but if I was center and the winger outside was going to be forward I wouldn’t pass it to him.

Some of the passing is instinct though, when it is that quick, you do not notice how marginally infront of you they are, and you just make the pass, Amos did not have to run onto any of those passes, they were to hand, which shows he was too far infront of his support players, but we can agree to disagree.

[maestegmafia]

Chatting to my son yesterday who was at the game we also have to consider that Japan was a very off place yesterday, the mood in the country somber after the tragic loss of life and the news filled with apocalyptic scenes of the typhoons destruction and devastation.

Try to remember what the uk was like when a bombing has happened the mood in Japan would be similar and that influences everyone. To get your psyche ready to play a joyous game of rugby is hard

Wonderful to see the Japan result put a country back at ease with the RWC.

It has not been conveyed in the uk quite the effect this typhoon has had, more that its appearance was an awkward utterance obstructing our wonderful RWC.

[Guest]

I wonder if some of the issues yesterday were due to the new combinations? Hopefully that won’t be an issue against France as we’ll be back to the settled 1st team. But you saw lots of uncharacteristic mistakes from Parkes yesterday and I think it was to do with the new guys around him. We’ve already criticised Aled Davies enough so I won’t go back into that, but Pathchell often ran laterally across field with ball in hand before passing and I think that forced Parkes to run different lines than normal, maybe forcing him out too, and perhaps that put him off his passing game. He must hat thrown around 4 forward passes! Maybe Amos’ runs were knocked out of sync due to that too. So I’m hoping it was just a lack of familiarity as a back line unit (although I appreciate that Patchell and Parkes play together at Scarlets, but und different plans and moves).

Davies, Biggar, North, Parkes, Adams and Williams........ has a much more settled look to it and I’m hopeful that we’ll see less mistakes and more accuracy than against Uruguay.

[eirebilly]

Cant see anything but a Welsh win against the French. More disciplined and balanced team.

[SecretFly]

France yawn at Six Nations.  A nuisance factor in the middle of their high salary Top 14 jobs.  
France yawn at Pool stages of World Cup.  Boring disciplin and endless f**king training.
France kinda like the later stages of the WC though.  They kinda get interested.  Only then do they become animated enough to blame coaches they seldom listen to anyway.  It's shipping the blame onto other shoulders of course but the act itself always hints that French players become more emotionally involved.  Being emotionally involved might mean concentration levels last longer. Concentration levels lasting means increased threat level.

[LondonTiger]

Wales should win comfortably. They are a good team, and France are not.

I would have a couple of worries for Wales though:

Potential Injuries - Especially in the backs (and Dan Biggar). With 13 backs in the squad and quite a few injury doubts there is not a lot of cover.

Defence - much of Wales game is built on their awesome defence. During the 6Ns they conceded just 7 tries vs 9 in their four pool games. Their tackle tackle success ration was 90% or higher in all but one match (86% v Scotland). In their first 3 warm-up games they managed an average of 81% (a return to form with 93% in the last). RWC has followed a similar pattern with 91% against Uruguay but and average of 82% in first three games.

[Taylorman]

France...are France.

[Guest]

There's a few question marks about the balance of the team here. Shingler looked good v Uurugay and has done well off the bench, but would we prefer an out and out lock on the bench in Beard or Bradley?

In that case, does Shingler become the bench option at #20?

Tough call. I think Navidi struggled at 8 against Australia - particularly with the scrums - where Moriarty generally looks better. But do you drop Navidi? Do you drop Wainwright? Probably not, both playing well, yet I like what Moriarty brings as well - showed it against Uruguay, a bit more heart and grit than most in the Welsh team, as well as a huge appetite to bash the opposition backwards.

Not an easy call. Almost tempted to have a 6:2 split again. Think this game will be attritional and we'll have bodies all over the place. I also expect the set piece to be key and, probably, the only foothold France have in the game - which makes the lock/back row decision all the more important.

Also questions about the props. Elias performed well v Uruguay but not sure Dee deserves to lose his bench spot. Real case for Carre to come in but, again, just haven't seen enough of him at test level to know what his scrummaging is like. 6 months away from being in the squad in all likelihood. Don't think you can drop Nicky Smith as he does the basics well. The big worry is Dillon Lewis. Looks like the weak link in this Welsh team unfortunately. Decent in the loose but just doesn't have the set piece skills.

[LondonTiger]

Tough call. I think Navidi struggled at 8 against Australia - particularly with the scrums - where Moriarty generally looks better. But do you drop Navidi? Do you drop Wainwright? Probably not, both playing well, yet I like what Moriarty brings as well - showed it against Uruguay, a bit more heart and grit than most in the Welsh team, as well as a huge appetite to bash the opposition backwards.

Moriarty is a thug. We trained him well

[Guest]

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

Very Harsh on Amos there, he was given a few bad passes, can’t blame him for that. Considering the amount of wind and rain during the game and before it’s no surprise there were so many dropped balls

In my opinion Amos has always flattered to deceive. Clearly a good club player, a nice guy, intelligent etc. (I've seen him around the Uni in Cardiff a few times over the years, incidentally). But he just doesn't look cut out for test rugby. He's actually surprisingly taller in person that I thought he is/was, but he's still got a 'small man' frame. A bit like Hook or Cuthbert - you can build those players in the gym, but they're naturally lean and even skinny. They're never going to be powerful. So he lacks physical power, fine...he also lacks a yard of pace. So he probably can't cut it as a winger in the modern game, and is he good enough at 15? Probably not. Again, last line of defence, among other things...not sure he has it. Even Halfpenny looks finished as anything but a defensive 15 - someone you accept offers nothing in attack but will be solid and offer great basics.

He's a decent all-rounder and it would be interesting to see how he got on at an English club, where there's more onus on being competitive/accountable. Maybe that changes at the Blues, who knows. But he got utterly exploited by Naholo down in NZ in 2016 - I went back and watched that game a few months ago (it''s on youtube, actually a good watch, the best Wales have played in the WC cycle probably), think it was the first test, and I honestly think we might have won if it weren't for Amos. At least, we would have been closer and in the game for longer - everything good NZ did was an easy get out down his wing, and they got their tries that way.

Would Amos be in England's squad? No. Ireland's? No. Scotland's? Maybe a few over the years but probably no more caps than he's had for Wales - in fact, probably fewer.

I wouldn't say he 'never plays again' but he's really only in the squad because he's probably able to play just about anywhere in the outside backs, where someone like Owen Lane cannot fill in at 15. The 2 botched tries - overrunning Parkes' pass 2 yards out, and then fumbling in the corner - is embarrassing. The other over-ran try you can accept to an extent but put altogether it really doesn't look great.

[Guest]

Good point about the Typhoon maesteg.

In my opinion if Biggar plays this game, and the majority of it (i.e. doesn't go off injured) Wales will win. It's that simple how to beat France. Patchell was poor yesterday, more obviously poor than Aled Davies who wasn't up to much either, and I worry if that's now unsettled what has been a decent comeback in to test rugby for him.

Biggar does the basics - finds the space in backfield, kicks the goals, takes the high balls, makes the touch finder. For all the criticism Biggar gets NOW is the time and the game you want him. Anscombe had a bit of a shocker in Paris - not dreadful; poor from the boot, but it was more naivety in trying to overplay in torrential rain instead of just putting it in behind the French.

Biggar will do that all day if that's what works, and I think we can absolutely ruin France in the air as well - in fact, I think we've scored most of our breakthrough tries through crossfield kicks this tournament? Against Fiji and Australia? I'd hope/expect the same again against the French.

[Guest]

Tough call. I think Navidi struggled at 8 against Australia - particularly with the scrums - where Moriarty generally looks better. But do you drop Navidi? Do you drop Wainwright? Probably not, both playing well, yet I like what Moriarty brings as well - showed it against Uruguay, a bit more heart and grit than most in the Welsh team, as well as a huge appetite to bash the opposition backwards.

Moriarty is a thug. We trained him well

If by 'we' you mean England, then...maybe? Probably not, but probably helped. One player I do think England have helped bring on massively is Josh Adams, so thanks for that!

[LondonTiger]

I think Adams deserves the plaudits for that really. It would have been easy to sulk after effectively being rejected by the regions, but he got himself a contract and worked his socks off.

[Guest]

Oh no doubt - he's a quality player, always has been, and Pivac/the Scarlets' decision looks worse and worse the longer it goes on. No surprise he didn't rejoin. But I think the general set up in England, the meritocracy of having to scrap his way to a full contract from playing reserve/semi pro rugby, to then playing for relegation fodder, to become a form try scorer and topping the Premiership try scoring charts (?) for a while is a sign of character building. He sounds really mature and level headed, doesn't show some of that homely immaturity that can afflict Welsh culture generally and Welsh rugby. Basically a small/localist mindset is all too common in Wales a lot of the time, and it's nice to see a young player like Adams effectively take up the challenge of what's available in England, and then flourish. No way can England/Worcester take total credit for the player he is, but I'd say it's helped him more than any Welsh player I can think of for the last 10-15 years who's moved there.

[gowershowerpower]

Have you been taking miaow miaow Miaow?

[Guest]

Weird downvote for that...dear me.

EDIT: Ah, it's for the point on the 'village' mentality in some Welsh people, isnt it.

And no, gower. You?

[gowershowerpower]

In that case, you have no excuse for talking utter bollox then?

[mikey_dragon]

I expect Gatland will go for something similar/identical to the team that played Aus. I think the team could do with a bit more muscle for France and would go with:
Jones, Owens, Francis, AWJ, Ball, Shingler, Tips, Navidi, Davies, Biggar, Adams, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams.
Dee, Carre, Lewis, Beard, Wainright, Williams, Patchell, Watkin.

I believe that's a pretty good bench. It instantly looks a lot better now that there are locks available. I don't think Smith has really done enough and seems to have gone backwards since last year. Carre looks promising.

[RiscaGame]

I think Moriarty is bound to be in the 23, so if a backrower was to miss out for Shingler, then it's probably Wainwright. As it goes, I don't think either Dragons' backrower misses out.

Jones, Owens, Francis, AWJ, Ball, Navidi, Tips, Moriarty, Davies, Biggar, Adams, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams.
Dee, Carre, Lewis, Beard, Wainwright, Williams, Patchell, Halfpenny.

[mikey_dragon]

Yeah that's the way I see it, just don't think it's the best option going forward. I thought it was more of a stop-gap albeit a good one. If Faletau was available I think the back-rower to drop out would be Moriarty, his performances are a little inconsistent for me. He also seems to make big hits and then fall off some easy tackles, weird. And if Dillon Lewis was a top scrummager then he'd probably be one of the best in the world at TH.

[LondonTiger]

In that case, you have no excuse for talking utter bollox then?

Have you been taking miaow miaow Miaow?

Pretty sure miaow can look after himself in what appears to be a domestic argument but please avoid insinuating another poster of being on drugs and concentrate on arguing against their post rather than their personality.

[gowershowerpower]

No accusations. Merely a question.

[Guest]

In that case, you have no excuse for talking utter bollox then?

[Guest]

I think Moriarty is bound to be in the 23, so if a backrower was to miss out for Shingler, then it's probably Wainwright.

Wow, tough call. Not sure Wainwright's deserved that. The only issues I see are fitness and conditioning in general, with some good play slightly let down by a drop in intensity/getting used to the standards of physicality at the top level. I think Gatland likes Wainwright. Cannot see him being dropped.

But then, as I write that, I can't see Navidi being dropped, either. Which means Wanwright 6, Navidi 8, and Shingler fighting it out with Moriarty and the locks for a place on the bench.

Personally, if I were to guess, Gatland will keep things as they are. Shingler #19, Moriarty #20. It's hard to argue with that, either, as I don't think Beard and Bradley are guaranteed to 'add' something to the team as it is. Just as likely they could be ineffectual, and I just think Shingler has the potential to be world class and is worth sticking with while he gets back up to speed.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Amos and Aled should never be allowed in a red shirt again.

Very Harsh on Amos there, he was given a few bad passes, can’t blame him for that. Considering the amount of wind and rain during the game and before it’s no surprise there were so many dropped balls

In my opinion Amos has always flattered to deceive. Clearly a good club player, a nice guy, intelligent etc. (I've seen him around the Uni in Cardiff a few times over the years, incidentally). But he just doesn't look cut out for test rugby. He's actually surprisingly taller in person that I thought he is/was, but he's still got a 'small man' frame. A bit like Hook or Cuthbert - you can build those players in the gym, but they're naturally lean and even skinny. They're never going to be powerful. So he lacks physical power, fine...he also lacks a yard of pace. So he probably can't cut it as a winger in the modern game, and is he good enough at 15? Probably not. Again, last line of defence, among other things...not sure he has it. Even Halfpenny looks finished as anything but a defensive 15 - someone you accept offers nothing in attack but will be solid and offer great basics.

He's a decent all-rounder and it would be interesting to see how he got on at an English club, where there's more onus on being competitive/accountable. Maybe that changes at the Blues, who knows. But he got utterly exploited by Naholo down in NZ in 2016 - I went back and watched that game a few months ago (it''s on youtube, actually a good watch, the best Wales have played in the WC cycle probably), think it was the first test, and I honestly think we might have won if it weren't for Amos. At least, we would have been closer and in the game for longer - everything good NZ did was an easy get out down his wing, and they got their tries that way.

Would Amos be in England's squad? No. Ireland's? No. Scotland's? Maybe a few over the years but probably no more caps than he's had for Wales - in fact, probably fewer.

I wouldn't say he 'never plays again' but he's really only in the squad because he's probably able to play just about anywhere in the outside backs, where someone like Owen Lane cannot fill in at 15. The 2 botched tries - overrunning Parkes' pass 2 yards out, and then fumbling in the corner - is embarrassing. The other over-ran try you can accept to an extent but put altogether it really doesn't look great.

Amos seems to snatch at chances at Test level, as if he hasn't settled yet. And that's really quite damning in a way, given that he's been in and around the Wales setup for years, albeit without establishing himself in the first XV, and can't really use inexperience as an excuse.

He won his first cap in 2013, and he's played 20 Tests. If he hasn't found his feet by now, you wonder if he ever will.

[Pie]

Amos traveled instead of Holmes or Lane. WTAF. Both big powerful wingers and Holmes covers 9. Amos tried to make his last attempt look more acrobatic than was required and spoiled it. Should not ever play for Wales again end of

[LondonTiger]

SH officials for this game, led by Jaco Peyper. OP updated.

[mikey_dragon]

I think players like Amos and James Davies are best used for 'understrength' teams, like tours to Argentina where each of them were pretty good. Neither has really lit up the stage in big games during major competitions, or against the top teams though.

[mikey_dragon]

Two SA officials... We know SH officials are poor, let's hope this isn't a case of who they want SA to face in the QF the most.

[Guest]

Classic, knew it would be Peyper. Have to hope we win the set piece 60:40 to avoid his madness.

[LondonTiger]

Wales not allowed to have Owens, issues with Peyper & Garces, so the only other option would have been Barnes. (Working on WR's decision that these are the best 4 refs)

[Guest]

Barnes would do. He likes teams who don't break the rules, so we'd be fine with him!

[RiscaGame]

I don't know why, but I have only recently not needed reminding that Peyper isn't French. Kind of reminds me of Garces and especially Poite.

Personally, I would've been happy with Barnes.

[LondonTiger]

Peyper looks a little like Poite for sure.

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