Scotland post mortem

by **NeilyBroon** Sun 13 Oct 2019, 11:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

So we're oot.

Question is... what now?

Do we think toonie will stay? If he does take the can which seems quite likely then who do we get to replace him?

I think this has to be the end of a few players too. We can't keep picking people on past form.

by Guest Tue 19 Nov 2019, 3:14 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Taylorman wrote:What’s up with this clown Hogg? It’s not enough Scotland try to hold the tournament to ransom over the inclement weather Hoggs gotta chime in and tell SBW ‘how to lose’ with more obvious and public pain?

Granted he’d be more an expert in that area but it’s well known SBW ‘rolls’ to his own tune and has simply found more internal perspective on life.

He’s also said the NRL championships were more important to him that the two rugby world cups. Big deal. He was far more integral to his League wins than sitting on the bench for Nonu for the large part and he’s a Leaguie at heart anyway.

Laughable that a guy who’s hardly won a thing is telling another who’s won far more in multiple sports, sides, club and country....how to approach losing. List so laughable in fact it’s not even funny.

Perhaps Hogg could do with a bit of Allah in his life to get the drift?

Eh?

I'm assuming that Miaow 'character' is not joining in with the usual childish nonsense you two partake in today?

Harsh...

by Guest Tue 19 Nov 2019, 3:15 am

BigGee wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50457224

EJs interview with John Beattie.

Actually nothing to controversial in it, though I am not sure how he worked out that our conditioning was off from our first warm up game. Quite a few sides were a bit off the [ace in their first warm up games and we bounced back from it well enough in the following weeks.

You're forgetting what happened the last time England played Scotland. And the time before that.

Do England play Scotland first up in the 6Ns by any chance?

by **RDW** Tue 19 Nov 2019, 3:18 am

miaow wrote:
BigGee wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50457224

EJs interview with John Beattie.

Actually nothing to controversial in it, though I am not sure how he worked out that our conditioning was off from our first warm up game. Quite a few sides were a bit off the [ace in their first warm up games and we bounced back from it well enough in the following weeks.

You're forgetting what happened the last time England played Scotland. And the time before that.

Do England play Scotland first up in the 6Ns by any chance?

I think the first England game should have been the blueprint of how we played under Townsend - that was one of our best performances of the professional era. Unfortunately it quickly become the second one at Twickenham for most of the last season or two - boom or bust and not often anything in between!

by **BigGee** Tue 19 Nov 2019, 3:30 am

Unfortunately i don't ever recall Scotland being on song first up either!

by Guest Tue 19 Nov 2019, 3:31 am

Probably fair RDW. EJ is right in that Scotland 100% should imitate what Japan have done and get used to playing rope a dope rugby - but they had sort of been doing that anywy, just half heartedly. Either way, make no mistake, this is EJ putting a neat little marker on Scotland - I haven't beaten you since 2017, but you're getting absolutely thumped next time. Don't forget, the Japan boys were MY team...etc.

by Taylorman Tue 19 Nov 2019, 4:42 am

BigGee wrote:Unfortunately i don't ever recall Scotland being on song first up either!

Well, theres only one way to win it. Get up and in the faces of the ABs so they cant move. Its the key to 90% of all wins against them. ABs will expect to win, they'll expect to try out combinations, they'll expect Scotland to give them some space and time on the ball.

They will keep trying to get the combinations working possibly for longer than they should and if Scotland are able to disrupt them enough to ensure not a lot happens, then the ABs become vulnerable, especially if the Hoggs and Maitlands of this game are able to snatch key runs themselves.

Not easy but not rocket science either. The skill levels will probably make the difference in the end but good old hard work and pressure has a way of making that more difficult than it is.

by Guest Tue 19 Nov 2019, 4:57 am

Have you apologised to Stuart Hogg yet, T?

by **BigGee** Tue 19 Nov 2019, 4:59 am

I think we know what to do, basically the same as last time but better, stay in the gsme and you never know what might happen.

How close was Hoggy to scoring on that last run, even if he should have realised he was not going to make it and put it inside a fraction earlier!

We have also got to stop doozing off for 10 minutes in a game and chucking a couple of scores at them.

As Taylorman says, not rocket science, but easier said than done!

by Taylorman Tue 19 Nov 2019, 5:29 am

miaow wrote:Have you apologised to Stuart Hogg yet, T?

Still following my every word. I really gotta get me better groupies.this ones boring as ghost

by Taylorman Tue 19 Nov 2019, 5:34 am

BigGee wrote:I think we know what to do, basically the same as last time but better, stay in the gsme and you never know what might happen.

How close was Hoggy to scoring on that last run, even if he should have realised he was not going to make it and put it inside a fraction earlier!

We have also got to stop doozing off for 10 minutes in a game and chucking a couple of scores at them.

As Taylorman says, not rocket science, but easier said than done!

Gotta admit there’s a lot of value to a one off like this for Scotland. Townsends got six months to come up with something and as we’ve seen from Japan and England a long term plan based on targeting one match has its virtues. Of course 6N is paramount but no harm in having what’s a very good opportunity in their sights. ABs are probably as beatable as they could be in the last decade. They should regroup well after this year, but that’s only if others let them.

by Guest Tue 19 Nov 2019, 6:56 am

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Have you apologised to Stuart Hogg yet, T?

Still following my every word. I really gotta get me better groupies.this ones boring as

I think we have had enough of this now, move on please

BigGee

by tigertattie Tue 19 Nov 2019, 10:29 pm

The AI games next year are a double edged sword.

It can be:

A win over a Japan team that peaked in the group stages of thier own world cup. A team that spent 3.8billion days together training before the WC to give them the best chance at a shot in the knock out round but will have the usual couple of weeks together before this game.
A win over an Argentina team thats been in recline for the last 3 years.
A win over an NZ side that's lost its invincible status and is rebuling a side with a new coach and new captain.

Scotland move to 7th in the world rankings

Or it could be:

A loss to a Japan side that have kicked on from the WC
A loss to an Argentian side that's gone back to its strength or squeezing the life out of games in the pack
A Loss to a NZ side that's reinvigourated after being knocked off the top perch in World Rugby.

Scotland slip out of the top 10 in the rankings

Not only does it depend on what the opposition do, but very much on what Scotland turn up!

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 1:14 am

And on whether we're in transition by that point or still under Toonie.

Grim times once again!

by Tramptastic Wed 20 Nov 2019, 2:06 am

Im going to be positive about this and imagine a best case scenario

Imagine if you will...

Huw Jones actually gets meaningful game time at GW at the expenses of Nick Grigg and gains form...

Hutchinson continues to cut a blaze through the premiership...

Watson returns from injury and the backrow of Ritchie Watson Bradbury wrecks the pro14...

A perfect back line of G.Horne, Russell, Graham, Hutchinson, H Jones, Kinghorn, Hogg scores 34 tries during the six nations and runs out against the all blacks. The all blacks are taken aback by the direct running of the scottish forwards in the midfield and their silky skills in the 5m channel, creating space for Russell to fire Jones and Hutchinson through gap after gap creating a hat trick for Hogg.

Bliss.

by **BigGee** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 2:19 am

That backline would potentially be something to behold!

Not sure just how well Hutchy would do at 12 internationally. He seems to have settled at 13 for Saints now anx that is probably his best position

by **RDW** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 2:25 am

Tramptastic wrote:Im going to be positive about this and imagine a best case scenario

Imagine if you will...

Huw Jones actually gets meaningful game time at GW at the expenses of Nick Grigg and gains form...

Hutchinson continues to cut a blaze through the premiership...

Watson returns from injury and the backrow of Ritchie Watson Bradbury wrecks the pro14...

A perfect back line of G.Horne, Russell, Graham, Hutchinson, H Jones, Kinghorn, Hogg scores 34 tries during the six nations and runs out against the all blacks. The all blacks are taken aback by the direct running of the scottish forwards in the midfield and their silky skills in the 5m channel, creating space for Russell to fire Jones and Hutchinson through gap after gap creating a hat trick for Hogg.

Bliss.

I thought you'd agreed to stop taking those pills!

That's a silky backline, but I still think for the 6N in particular we need a physical presence in the midfield. I think we can accommodate one of Hutchinson or Jones but not both. This is particularly true given our wingers aren't exactly big bruisers to get us over the gainline.

by Tramptastic Wed 20 Nov 2019, 2:46 am

I really want to see Hutchinson involved

BUT the best centre pairing of the season so far has been Scott and Bennett. They've scored hunners and havent conceded many, would be quite happy to see them playing outside Russell considering they are on form, are proven quality, play regularly together and are less flighty than certain other players

by **BigGee** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 3:00 am

Bringing Scott and Bennett back in, when there are younger models and potentially more durable models around that will be playing around the next WC would be an interesting call for Toonie, or whoever takes the team onwards. MB may be playing international rugby in 4 years time, but I am not so sure about Matt Scott. I would say that George Taylor has looked as good as him at 12 this year as well for Edinburgh.

WE do seem to have plenty of decent 13s but it is less clear that we have anyone who has locked down the 12 shirt yet.

Horne P
McDowell
Johnson
Scott
Taylor
Hutchinson (who is also better at 13)
Russell (with Hastings playing at 10)
Taylor

Quite a few options but no real stand out so far.

Johnson has been playing well for Glasgow and is the incumbent and also, you would imagine has some improving to do in that position internationally.

If any of the others are going to come into the equation, then I would like to see them a good run and show some consistent form in some big games. I don't think we have seen enough of anyone else to be parachuting them into the team just yet.

by 123456789. Wed 20 Nov 2019, 3:07 am

I've not seen as much of Edinburgh as I'd like. I'm very much so on the side of Hutchinson and Jones at 12 and 13. It might not be big but none of our options are, if they're both on form we'll score tries. I'm an enormous fan of Tramptastic's first backline. The only caveat would be we'd need to select a pack that could go with it. One that had enough punch and heft to suck defenders in but was mobile enough to keep up with the backs. I'd bring back Richie Gray, if he'd come, and Skinner, if he was fit, and broadly stick with the back-row we stumbled across in Japan. With MacInally, Fagerson and Dell up front waiting for Kebble to come through with him. I think we're unbelievably well stocked with centres of a certain ability. Solid internationals, possible Lions tourists, unlikely Lions test players. Huw Jones on form maybe, Hutchinson possibly, maybe some of the younger players coming through eventually. I'd say there wasn't a huge amount between Hutchinson, Jones, Taylor, Horne, Johnson, Dunbar, Bennett, Scott, McDowall etc. In that a fair few of them will never let you down and will never light up a game. Others will regularly let you down and regularly light up a game.
For the talk of the Six Nations being a hugely physical tournament I can't help but think that a quicker more creative backline would work wonders in this Six Nations. Wales will be moving away from a defensive system ten years in the making, Ireland moving away from a very prescribed style of rugby under a first time coach, France will be working with Sean Edwards for the first time so will improve, he won't, however, have the time he was used to with Wales, Italy are Italy. England are one of the top three teams in World Rugby. There seems, however, two tried and tested ways to beat them. Smash them up, i.e Wales and South Africa, and confuse them, i.e Scotland in 2018 and second half 2019. We simply cannot do the former so we may as well go wholeheartedly for the latter. If, as Eddie Jones has suggested they might, the Sarries boys pull out of the Six Nations then this tournament offers an opportunity for us as a relatively experienced, settled side with a point to prove.
As for Eddie Jones, the way the media hang off of his every comment infuriates me. There's a degree of Kremlinology. He is no better a coach than Gatland or Schmidt. Yet gets all the plaudits off the back of Mourinho-Guardiola-esque comments that suggest he's stumbled across a new, better way of thinking about the game. They beat New Zealand using the Irish blueprint; they controlled the game, won the setpiece and tackled with an emotional intensity. It was very, very good and very, very effective but it wasn't a new way to play rugby, it wasn't even a new way to beat New Zealand. It's the way the French found c.2005-2010, it's the way the Irish did it in Chicago and Dublin and it's how South Africa do it whenever they beat New Zealand. Gatland made a point about O'Brien's criticism of him when he said he didn't have the head to head record to back it up. Eddie Jones has played two against Gregor Townsend and won 0. And we all know Townsend to be utter, utter gash.

by **RDW** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 3:17 am

Scottish rugby very much needs a good tournament, and there's been no better chance in recent times with 4 of the 6 teams going into the championship with a new coach and changed squads. Who knows what England will be like with a world cup hangover and the Saracens distraction.

As such I don't think we need to go full experimental and cap a load of youngsters for the sake of it. We have a pretty young squad anyway. One things for sure though - Toonie needs to go on form, particularly in the hotly contested positions of back 5 and centres.

I'd quite like to see Zander Fagerson given a starting role for most of the championship - he is the long term future at tighthead. Nel will be useful to have to steady the ship if required, and we know Berghan can hold his own if called upon.

by lostinwales Wed 20 Nov 2019, 3:25 am

Talking of coaches - I think its very much horses for courses. Eddie was absolutely the right coach for us at the time he came in and a better option than Gatland or Schmidt would have been. It is also fair to say he probably would not have worked as well for Ireland or Wales, but then we'll never know for sure.

by Tramptastic Wed 20 Nov 2019, 3:29 am

Matt Scott is only 29, absolute prime age for an Inside Centre!

If his body keeps up he'll be a good experienced head for the next world cup

It would be fairly nonsensical to say "abandon all the 29 year olds in the squad now as they wont make the next world cup Laugh

by 123456789. Wed 20 Nov 2019, 3:56 am

I'm in absolute agreement that we should not chuck the baby out with the bath water. WP Nel, for example, I think should be kept around the squad. We have three decent tightheads. Say two of them get injured. There's no benefit in holding back from playing Nel because he won't be able to play in four games on the other side of the world in four years time. Playing someone not good enough or not ready won't make them a better player. I'd rather win a Six Nations in 2020 with a bunch of geriatrics and crash out at the group stage in 2023 than come consistently fourth in the Six Nations whilst 'transitioning' and reach the knockout stages of the World Cup. South Africa dispelled the myth that a World Cup is a four year project this season.

by **BigGee** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 4:02 am

Tramptastic wrote:Matt Scott is only 29, absolute prime age for an Inside Centre!

If his body keeps up he'll be a good experienced head for the next world cup

It would be fairly nonsensical to say "abandon all the 29 year olds in the squad now as they wont make the next world cup

With his injury record, I am not quite so sure. He has played well this season, but still struggles to string a run of games together.

by **George Carlin** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 5:40 pm

RDW wrote:Scottish rugby very much needs a good tournament, and there's been no better chance in recent times with 4 of the 6 teams going into the championship with a new coach and changed squads. Who knows what England will be like with a world cup hangover and the Saracens distraction.

As such I don't think we need to go full experimental and cap a load of youngsters for the sake of it. We have a pretty young squad anyway. One things for sure though - Toonie needs to go on form, particularly in the hotly contested positions of back 5 and centres.

That last sentence is the key and Townsend has not been good at abandoning his favourites in crucial games. His continuation as Scotland coach very much depends on doing it in this tournament and I am not convinced that he has the stuff. I won't labour the point but some of our best players at the RWC (Graham, Micro Horne, Mbawza) were given a shot through injury, not his keen eye for selection. I hope that I'm wrong and we will see some new players coming though.

Jettisoning an entire squad has never, ever worked and Toonie would be right to be wary about that. There is no need though. The world cup served as something of a transition (especially with our loose forwards) and that's one of the few blessings which came out of that scheizefest.

by bsando Wed 20 Nov 2019, 6:53 pm

Despite the other 6N sides making changes to their squads Scotland also have a much better pool of players to pick from. The lack of injuries at the moment (touch wood) is hugely encouraging. Ultimately, in the harsh world of international rugby, Scotland can't be finishing 5th or 6th in the 2020 6N after that World Cup performance and 5th placed 2019 6N finish. No matter how close the results.

I don't think wholesale changes are required but Toonie and his coaches 100% need to re-evaluate the gameplan and its effectiveness against the bigger sides. Luckily, the RWC was a big stage to really critically analyse Scotland's squad. Who stepped up? And who is now surplus for requirements?

100% captaincy needs to change. McInally missed a crucial tackle early on against ireland in the RWC and that set the tone for a pretty god awful game of rugby (from a Scottish perspective). I've already made a case for J Gray but Ritchie has been mentioned too. I just think McInally isn't the right player for it and he didn't even start against Japan.

Wilson in my opinion has become the new Al Kellock. A solid captain for Glasgow but his international days are over. Likewise, Laidlaw has 1-2 seasons at Clermont left in him, a nice big pack to play behind. That is not the sort of 9 Scotland need now. G Horne has the speed and agility Scotland need for their fast game. It's a tough call to make but I think Toonie needs to do it. Laidlaw can't be starting games as Scotland's first choice SH, he is rolling into retirement mode. I think Horne and Price should be starting and benching our 6N matches and Laidlaw could be the 3rd choice fly half and a strong leader around camp.

Peter Horne, likewise, has been a good servant but he can't be starting against Ireland in February when likes of Hutchinson and Scott are playing so well.

The real area of weakness for the 6N is the front row at the moment and I'd really like to see Dell getting more game time if he is to continue as first choice loosehead. Kebble will be a great addition here when he qualifies as the depth is too shallow. McCallum for me is the player who could step up in 2020. Like RDW says, Fagerson should probably be starting ahead of Nel at tighthead at the moment but Nel is still obviously a very important player for Scotland as is Berghan.

In a nut shell, a squad sort of like the following..

Loosehead: Dell, McCallum, Bhatti
Tighthead: Fagerson, Nel, Berghan
Hooker: McInally, Stewart, Brown
Lock: R Gray, J Gray, Gilchrist, Toolis, Skinner, Cummings
BR: Barclay, Bradbury, Watson, Ritchie, Thomson, Fagerson
9: G Horne, Price, Laidlaw
10: Russell, Hastings
Centres: Hutchinson, Scott, Jones, Johnson, Taylor, Bennett, Harris
Wings: Maitland, Graham, Steyn, Seymour, Kinghorn
FB: Hogg, Kinghorn

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 7:11 pm

I'd exclude barclay, toolis and laidlaw from that squad. I've been a huge fan of barclay over the years but he really was bad during the WC. I'd rather see crosbie or haining get a chance. Laidlaw I'd replace with Dobie or Sheil mainly for squad exp. Toolis again looked pretty meh. I'd say kiran mcdonald has gone ahead in the pecking order this season so would rather take a punt on him.

I'd be tempted to drop seymour too but have him on speed dial if any injuries come up and bring in Hoyland or give Farndale a chance.

by Tramptastic Wed 20 Nov 2019, 7:20 pm

Aye Seymour just hasn't looked sharp for a while and he doesn't seem to play with a smile on his face, often looking quite glum - maybe his head just isn't in it and he needs a break? I'd bring in Hoyland regardless, Seymour is the wrong side of 30 so, as you say, can be used as injury cover

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 7:40 pm

Yeah exactly, his only consistent attribute has been his ability under high ball but even that's looking wobbly at the moment. To me it looks like he definitely could do with time away from the game or to move away from Glasgow, I think a change is perhaps long overdue and that maybe he would be galvanised back into form up until his retirement. Look at what Saracens did for maitland for example, Scarlets for Barclay etc.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 7:45 pm

On the note of change I think Jones really needs a move too otherwise his promising career could fizzle out all too quickly. He's got time but he needs to get his agent on the phone to clubs around europe. I think he could do well in the Gallagher Premiership, maybe with a up and coming team like bristol or LI.

by bsando Wed 20 Nov 2019, 8:26 pm

Yes, ironically I thought that would be the worst thing for him when he was linked with Leicester. Now he's in "tha bin juice" to quote Schoeman from the Edinburgh podcast.

Seymour has more gas in the tank, can't see him being dropped. He probably won't start and I think Steyn could offer a good physical presence on the wing for Scotland rather than at the stacked centre position.

Barclay did alright I thought, he was also coming back from long term injury layoff prior to the RWC so he my be in a better way for the 6N. Wilson though? Watch that Rory Best try against us fro ma rolling maul and Wilson's contribution to defending said maul. It's that sort of stuff that drives me mad as a fan.

Toolis is a solid player IMO but maybe someone can show better form. Competition is pretty good at lock now which is encouraging and I really hope R Gray returns.

by **RDW** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 11:13 pm

Scotland's summer tour formally confirmed - 2 SA tests then fly to NZ for the 3rd. Going to be a tough one, particularly flying to NZ and playing them in the space of a week at the very end of the season, after 2 brutal SA tests. We're normally limping home by that stage (hence losses to Fiji etc).

Not to mention the euphoria that the Bocks will see when we play those two tests - their first tests as world champions.

Could get messy.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 11:23 pm

#prayforscotland

by **RDW** Wed 20 Nov 2019, 11:26 pm

2020 SCOTLAND FIXTURES

2020 Guinness Six Nations
Saturday 1 February: Ireland v Scotland; Aviva Stadium (kick-off 4.45pm GMT)
Saturday 8 February: Scotland v England; BT Murrayfield Stadium (kick-off 4.45pm GMT)
Saturday 22 February: Italy v Scotland; Stadio Olimpico (kick-off 2.15pm GMT)
Sunday 8 March: Scotland v France; BT Murrayfield Stadium (kick-off 3pm GMT)
Saturday 14 March: Wales v Scotland; Principality Stadium (kick-off 2.15pm GMT)

2020 Summer Tour
Saturday 4 July: South Africa v Scotland; location / kick-off TBC
Saturday 11 July: South Africa v Scotland; location / kick-off TBC
Saturday 18 July: New Zealand v Scotland; Forsyth Barr Stadium (kick-off 8.35am BST, 7.35pm local time)

2020 Autumn Tests
Weekend of 6/7/8 November: Scotland v Argentina; BT Murrayfield (kick-off TBC)
Weekend of 13/14/15 November: Scotland v Japan; BT Murrayfield (kick-off TBC)
Weekend of 20/21/22 November: Scotland v New Zealand; BT Murrayfield (kick-off TBC)

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2019, 11:33 pm

Don't worry. SA will declare Townsend as their new head coach by then. He'll be on record as saying he wants to make South Africa even faster than the fastest rugby on the planet. The Scottish boys will smile. 2nds will be used for both SA games - won on a trot as SA bamboozle themselves chasing shadows. Fresh 1st team face NZ, playing a dogged, defence based SA style game, the one that beat England easily. Three wins from three. World Number 1.

by bsando Thu 21 Nov 2019, 1:17 am

Wow 2020 has some excellent test matches!

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2019, 1:19 am

It's not completely unfeasible that we'll only win 3 out of 11 of them (Italy, Argentina, Japan), and even they're not guaranteed. France at home probably our next best shot.

by Guest Thu 21 Nov 2019, 1:21 am

2 bites each at NZ and SA. Tasty...

by Tramptastic Thu 21 Nov 2019, 2:04 am

glad Scotland have a good run of high quality test matches. Gutted we'll lose most of them Laugh

by Gooseberry Thu 21 Nov 2019, 3:30 am

In a rare moment of not taking the pee out of scotland they do have good form in recent years for turning over much higher ranked opponents, its the teams they could/should be beating that have been the bigger problem.

Who knows, new zelalnd in transition, players running off for big contracts in Japan and France, new coach ( if they have one at all)...springing a surprise or two is just as likely as them getting humped by everyone bar Italy.

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2019, 3:51 am

Gooseberry wrote:In a rare moment of not taking the pee out of scotland they do have good form in recent years for turning over much higher ranked opponents, its the teams they could/should be beating that have been the bigger problem.

Who knows, new zelalnd in transition, players running off for big contracts in Japan and France, new coach ( if they have one at all)...springing a surprise or two is just as likely as them getting humped by everyone bar Italy.

I think that would have been an accurate description 4+ years ago but in recent years it's been the opposite. Generally we have been putting away teams around or below us but not been able to make the jump to regularly beat teams above us.

Take Italy for example - we've won the last 7 games against them, whereas in the past there was a real chance of us losing. Yes some have been a bit too close for comfort but there's a lot of comfortable wins in there too. We've also won 5 in a row against Argentina including a complete pumping away from home. We beat Russia and Samoa comfortably in the WC whereas in previous years we've been in real dogfights with the lower ranked teams.

There have been blips against USA and Fiji but there were very much mitigating circumstances in those - we put out a B team against USA who put in a great performance that day, and we similarly mixed the team up for a final game after a long season away in Fiji where they were totally gunning for us.

Of much greater disappointment for Scotland fans are for example the last 3 games against Wales where we had plenty opportunities that weren't taken, away to France, recent home games to Ireland and a limp performance against SA. Not to mention all the other bitterly disappointing defeats in the 6N and World Cup.

by 123456789. Thu 21 Nov 2019, 5:05 am

It's a risky set of fixtures for us. Only Italy are below us in the rankings and we're playing them away. It's not quite the gimme you might think. We are, on average, around 20 points worse away from home in the Six Nations.
It is, however, exactly what we need to find out where we are in World Rugby, far more so than the World Cup. Townsend will have absolutely nowhere to hide. The Six Nations should be relatively open this year, England will be favourites and by some distance but they have the Saracens factor, and they're coming to Murrayfield. Ireland, Wales and France have new coaches. Ireland and Wales coming off long term appointments with specific style of play. Sean Edwards may not be the coup we think it is for France. The problem, to paraphrase Edward I in Braveheart, with France is it's full of French people. If the French players do not like Edwards style then they will tell him in no uncertain terms. They also haven't won at Murrayfield since 2014. Italy are Italy. If we perform this Six Nations then we have a real and genuine opportunity.
The summer tour provides an opportunity few of our players will have had before, we've not played a test in New Zealand since 2000. Again they will be transitioning, there'll be a change of the guard player wise and a coach leaving after sixteen years in the set up. It's unlikely, nigh on impossible that we'll win the match but if Scotland want a part in South Africa in 2021 then they need to put in performances on this tour.
The Autumn series should bring in two victories. Argentina haven't turned us over in eight years (will be nine by then) and it's a relative rarity for us to build up that sort of record against Tier One teams. Japan is, simply put, a must win. New Zealand will, obviously, be desperate to enact revenge for being turned over by 30 points on their won patch. But that sort of anger will, perhaps, boil over. Referees aren't as reticent about sending off All Blacks as they used to be. I reckon a fairly comfortable win for Scotland against a 13 man New Zealand side. All fairly simple and we sit top of the rankings come Hogmanay 2020.

by **NeilyBroon** Thu 21 Nov 2019, 5:42 am

Love the optimism!

Let's hope toonie has learnt and we tighten up in the 6Ns. Or let's hope he proves so awful we get a decent replacement straight away.

by 123456789. Thu 21 Nov 2019, 5:55 am

Yeah I'm fairly entrenched in the top two or bottom two camp. Top two and it's a good season. Bottom two and he's off.

by bsando Thu 21 Nov 2019, 8:16 am

I think 6 or 7 from 11 would be pretty respectable. Anything less and we're heading to disappointment town.. again.

by Hazel Sapling Thu 21 Nov 2019, 9:46 pm

Tough set of fixtures, probably at the wrong time (straight after a World Cup season) but this is when we have to prove that we are a Tier 1 nation.

Townsend only has the Six Nations in my mind before we know whether he is staying. Italy and France at home is the minimum and probably not enough for us.

We should be targeting Wales away and England at home. Both had long World Cups, Wales have added a Baa-baas game for jokes and England have the Sarries problem (be interesting if Sarries are still 15 points from safety around the time of our game, the premiership is horrifically tough this year). Unfortunately, we play Wales at the end of the Six Nations and it looks like they will get some injured players back throughout the tournament. Ireland is a tough nut to crack and had a relatively short World Cup so not holding much hope there at the moment.

Summer tour, we can lose all three as long as we are competitive in two of the games. I think we can turn over SA who have lost a few players and will have a bit of a come down after the highs of October, but it is an uphill battle and can't bank on it.

Autumn we ought to win two and have a go at NZ. Anything short of that will not be good enough. Losing by seven to a Japan team at home in a World Cup knockout after a major natural disaster has amped them up is one thing. Losing at home at the end of an emotional year for Japanese rugby is another.

To me that leaves 5 as the minimum and 7 would represent either a very good Six Nations or getting a win over SA away or NZ in any form.

by Gooseberry Thu 21 Nov 2019, 10:17 pm

RDW wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:In a rare moment of not taking the pee out of scotland they do have good form in recent years for turning over much higher ranked opponents, its the teams they could/should be beating that have been the bigger problem.

Who knows, new zelalnd in transition, players running off for big contracts in Japan and France, new coach ( if they have one at all)...springing a surprise or two is just as likely as them getting humped by everyone bar Italy.
I think that would have been an accurate description 4+ years ago but in recent years it's been the opposite. Generally we have been putting away teams around or below us but not been able to make the jump to regularly beat teams above us.

Take Italy for example - we've won the last 7 games against them, whereas in the past there was a real chance of us losing. Yes some have been a bit too close for comfort but there's a lot of comfortable wins in there too. We've also won 5 in a row against Argentina including a complete pumping away from home. We beat Russia and Samoa comfortably in the WC whereas in previous years we've been in real dogfights with the lower ranked teams.

There have been blips against USA and Fiji but there were very much mitigating circumstances in those - we put out a B team against USA who put in a great performance that day, and we similarly mixed the team up for a final game after a long season away in Fiji where they were totally gunning for us.

Of much greater disappointment for Scotland fans are for example the last 3 games against Wales where we had plenty opportunities that weren't taken, away to France, recent home games to Ireland and a limp performance against SA. Not to mention all the other bitterly disappointing defeats in the 6N and World Cup.

See maybe Im just fixing on them beating and drawing with England who were a top 4 side but losing to Japan and far worse the USA. Its only 2 years since they humped Aus and pushed NZ close off the back of being beaten by Fiji and nearly losing to Samoa at home. They havent really played the SANZARs since that Aus game, and I guess its these summer tour/AI fixtures where its easiest for teams like Scotalnd to catch the giants napping....as well as slipping up to the Fijis and USA.
England fixtures aside (raising their game etc) they have been disappointing in recent 6 nations granted, and anything more than two wins in this one seems aspirational at best. But then every team will be in transition so who knows!

Its a tough run of fixtures for Scotland, but at least that allows expectations to be tempered and has the potential for some uplifting victories. getting England at home again in the 6 nations should have you licking your lips.

by Guest Thu 21 Nov 2019, 10:18 pm

6-7 from 11 is respectable? So losing no more than 4-5 games?

When you're playing...

- England
- Ireland
- Wales
- New Zealand
- New Zealand
- South Africa
- South Africa
- Argentina

I'd call it more than respectable if Scotland manage to beat Wales, Ireland, and/or England...!!!

by alive555 Thu 21 Nov 2019, 10:35 pm

miaow wrote:6-7 from 11 is respectable? So losing no more than 4-5 games?

When you're playing...

- England
- Ireland
- Wales
- New Zealand
- New Zealand
- South Africa
- South Africa
- Argentina

I'd call it more than respectable if Scotland manage to beat Wales, Ireland, and/or England...!!!

2020 Guinness Six Nations
Saturday 1 February: Ireland v Scotland; Aviva Stadium (kick-off 4.45pm GMT)
Saturday 8 February: Scotland v England; BT Murrayfield Stadium (kick-off 4.45pm GMT)
Saturday 22 February: Italy v Scotland; Stadio Olimpico (kick-off 2.15pm GMT)
Sunday 8 March: Scotland v France; BT Murrayfield Stadium (kick-off 3pm GMT)
Saturday 14 March: Wales v Scotland; Principality Stadium (kick-off 2.15pm GMT)

of these we need min 3 wins or townsend should go before the summer internationals!!!

by **BigGee** Thu 21 Nov 2019, 10:35 pm

This generation of Scottish players need to be testing themselves against the best teams, it may be what we need to do in order to improve. If we get bashed up a bit along the way, so be it.

We keep getting told that this is the best generation of players we have had in a long time and their individual club form would suggest that. We just need to see them bring that together for Scotland.

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