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Let's put the 1/4's in perspective...

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 7:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

I have read some of these comments, and opinions since the RWC 1/4 finals, and there is a wealth of knowledge here, and a lot of valid comments, but I think there is a trend and issue no-one really taking seriously enough!

Player welfare / fatigue!

Of the 4 quarter finals, all 4 teams who were dominant in their matches had a much easier 10-15 days prior to their game.

England played 2 games to Australia's 3 In the 14 day period, no-one can claim an extra game isn't a hinderence, and Australia, as did Japan, Wales and Ireland all looked like they were running in custard!

Wales are the key team to highlight this, Wales have played 3 games in 11 days! And they looked like it first half, being run ragged by a France team looking well rested and we'll prepped. There were 3 key factors for Wales overcoming France...

The red card offset the fatigue difference!

This French team is poor, poor 2nd half v Argentina and Tonga, and they realistically avoided a whipping by England.

Wales conditioning levels, superb to stay in touch throughout.

So, 3 blowouts in the 1/4's, probably largely in part due to opposition fatigue, and a dominant performance thrown away.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:53 pm

You may be right, except I don't think Wales struggle so much against France, 3 games in 11 days vs 2 in 14 was the widest difference, and showed.

I think all 4 winners win regardless tbh, but I have to think ireland and Aus would've been far better against opponents far more rested!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:54 pm

France in complete control in both games and make silly mistakes dave.
If wales style of play shows fatigue they've been showing it for months and months. Eventually you just have to hold your hands up and say those are the chosen tactics.
Similar to Australia.they run the ball. That's about it

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:59 pm

How have Wales looked fatigued in months? They have constantly ended games strong, and overcome teams who were tough to break down for 60 mins or so.

The only oddities would be ireland (blown away) and Australia (chose to defend a big lead).

What wales havnt been, is totally run ragged like they were last week, and that hasn't happened in years!

To simplify both games into early lead, comeback victory shows a surprising lack of knowledge of the game, these games werent even close to being similar

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:07 pm

So.....pretty much like the last game where wales finished strongly. I know it's now popular to ignore the warm ups but all through those wales have shown weak midfield defence. Whether it be 1 on 1 mistakes or seemingly unfamiliarity between the players: france simply took that in and started their off loads.
Thanks for the continuation of insults from some welsh members on the board.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:10 pm

Wales only finished strongly (ish) due to the red card. No red card and France win that game by 20 points, surely you agree with that?

I'm not sure what insults you're talking about, you seem very insulted by the idea england benefited from having an extra game off, of which I've explained england are the better team, and would more than likely have had too much for Aus anyway.

I'm not sure why youre so offended?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:11 pm

And wales finished strongly against france in the 6 nations due to french mistakes. I'm not sure why you have to try insults. Perhaps copying miaow style too much.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:14 pm

Again, you're mentioning insults...

Why are you so offended by the premise that playing 3 games compared to 2 in a 12-14 day period is beneficial for the team's who play 2?

Do you disagree Wales lose to France without the red card?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:17 pm

A surprising lack of knowledge.
I'm not bothered by you wanting to say what you say.
I agree france looked well set to win the game before the red. They were in control during the 6 nations as well before their self destruction. Its France.
I'm.aboit as surprised by that as australia playing the same way they have done against us consistently recently.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:21 pm

'Self destruction'?

An individual made a huge mistake on his own try line, then mistakes crept in under pressure, before panic stations offered an intercept to win the match.

France weren't able to keep up the tactical nuance they showed first half in the 6N, it's a new concept to them to stay structured and play a low risk gameplan. When wales changed their style after half time France were lured into haremscarem.

They didn't self destruct in either game, they struggled to make good tactical decisions under pressure, and that was in part to a novice 10 in the 6N.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:23 pm

Yup self destruction. 2 mistakes under no real pressure in the 6 nations. Numerous mistakes in addition to the red card in the wc. Its no surprise it's what france do. Perhaps to a lesser extent the assault!

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:28 pm

So getting red carded is self destructing?

I'm really confused by your defensive stance!

Wales have dominated results between them and France in recent years, it's pretty well agreed France aren't a very good team, and they have had very little to show they can run top teams ragged, losing to Scotland, Fiji etc this year.

This france performance was above what they've shown at any point this year, maybe aside from 20 mins v a poor Argentina team. And fair play to them, they came out firing, against a tired wales team who played 3 times in 11 days compared to their 2 in 14.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:33 pm

Is that first question real?
I disagree with your 2nd point. They've had plenty of periods of half a performance for a while. Including against wales earlier in the year.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:35 pm

Once again, that was a tactical discipline that caught wales cold on tournament game 1... they didn't run wales ragged, far from it!

But please, highlight the world class running game they have showed for 40 minutes? Are you counting against a weakened Scotland in France during a warm up?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:37 pm

Ah. Lack of games did it. Hard balancing act this rugby game.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:37 pm

Lack of games?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:39 pm

Lack of games before the france game in the 6 nations. Too many in the wc.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:41 pm

Who mentions lack of games?

You've got me confused!

Are you talking about wales being caught cold? The same way england caught ireland cold?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:45 pm

Sorry by wales were caught cold I though you meant lack of game to get warmed up.
I think its become clear the games followed similar patterns anyway. No real impact of missing these group games where 2nd choice players were going to play anyway.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:51 pm

So you think getting 5 days more rest is comparable to not playing a game in 3 months?

By caught cold, I meant france came out of the blocks playing a style wales weren't prepared for, wales had to recover tactically.

This is in no way comparable to having to play 3 games in 11 days, while your opponents has had 12 days rest, and being fatigued and run ragged.

Would you as a fan, or player have prepared the quarter final to be:

Your third in 11 days?

Or

2nd in 14?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:55 pm

So perhaps theres a question on tactics and adapting to games. France offer more variety. Australia offered exactly what was expected and exactly what has not worked consistently against england.
The vast majority of french and England players wouldn't have played much had they played each other.both teams through. There were a few people on here suggesting both teams would have treated it less than a training run.
You're offering a theory. Myself abs a few others have said but hang on we saw a similar pattern as other games: did it really have that much impact.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:58 pm

I suggest you guys agree to disagree.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:02 pm

So you refuse to answer the question?

France tactical game first half wasn't very sophisticated, the plopped Vakatawa at 13 and decided to attack the midfield channels...

Wales lethargic blitz, and lazy footed individual tackles missed a number of tackles, which Wales are not renowned for.

Takes france 2nd try, 20m out french back rower is put clean through, North tries to make up the 4/5 yard headstart, however not only is a wing not able to make the yards up, he loses ground on the back rower, and is visibly wincing unable to lift his knees.

George north may not be the quickest winger in world rugby, but he's quick enough to match back rowers... except last weekend he wasnt

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:28 pm

Wales won though.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:30 pm

Yes, due to the red card. Without the red it could've been a nasty scoreline I think.

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:32 pm

Ifs and buts. Could have been. Wales would have won easier with rest, with the red, but without? If he was more tired does he still throw the elbow?

Lot to think about. All irrelevant.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:37 pm

It's not irrelevant when you consider the trend of all 4 quarter final games though, they all followed a similar trend.

My point is, I don't think wales start as bad this week, and the 4 games in 18 days allowed at least a weeks rest period and is less damaging than 3 games in 11 days!

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:37 pm

It's irrelevant when you consider that the results are final.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 10:38 pm

Well that makes this site irrelevant then does it not?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:12 pm

How many times can you repeat the same thing?

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:17 pm

The losers were Australia (have been crap for years), Ireland (crap for a year), France (crap for years) and Japan (outdone themselves). Wales are just lucky they didn’t choke.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:15 am

I already answered the question on whether the missed game made a difference. It didn't in my opinion.

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Post by Guest on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:France in complete control in both games and make silly mistakes dave.

Doyyyyyyy.

Complete control was the Welsh performance v England in the 6Ns, particularly in the second half - dictating the tempor, the ball in play time, then the field position, and finally the scoreline.

If Wales hadn't overplayed in a Paris downpour and had done what they did second half, they wouldnt have gone in 16-0 down. Either way, they had enough control in defence to pick them off while barely in 3rd gear. Same happened in the QF.

The same has happened 8 times out of the last 9.

Weird if you think that's control. Even with Wales botching chances in the QF and looking less likely to win - they were always going to win the 6Ns game - they still controlled the game and got the decisive score.

Ever heard of rope a dope in boxing? More than one way to control a game...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:25 am

Right you are miaow.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:25 am

So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:25 am

France were all over Wales Miaow. It was another Houdini escape for Wales against France in part in fairness down to Welsh attitude but also down to French carelessness.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:27 am

Less carelessness this time collapse. More lack of planning scrum wise and a horrible premeditated attack.

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Post by sensisball on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:27 am

To be fair on Ollivons try, that lad may play back row but he can really fly once he gets into his stride. Quickest French forward with Itturia (not picked for the Welsh game) a close second.

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Post by Guest on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:34 am

Soul Requiem wrote:So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

No. It means France were clearly not in complete control. Neither team was. It's an utterly dull (becoming my favourite expression, cheers Brian) thing to say.

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Post by Guest on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:36 am

Collapse2005 wrote:France were all over Wales Miaow. It was another Houdini escape for Wales against France in part in fairness down to Welsh attitude but also down to French carelessness.

It only takes seconds to score a try though. The frustration was that as France were on 6 ahead, Wales didn't really force the play - as a fan, that was horrible, but it meant they trusted their systems, trusted their experience, and got the win by 1 point. They didn't have to start overplaying, putting in a blood and thunder effort on 60 minutes. They scored with 7 minutes to go - it's not a last gasp victory. The template is so well worn by now, I'm surprised people don't just accept that this is the way Gatland coaches his teams. You can't keep calling them 'Houdini escapes' if they keep happening - unless, of course, you accept Wales are as skilled as Houdini...without the unintentional suffocation.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Less carelessness this time collapse.  More lack of planning scrum wise and a horrible premeditated attack.

Yeah maybe so. However, they had a chance to kill the game completely with a drop goal and they failed to take it. Thought that was particularly bad.

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Post by ebop on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:38 am

Wales were very very lucky to beat France. Gatland admitted the better team on the day lost.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:38 am

miaow wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:France were all over Wales Miaow. It was another Houdini escape for Wales against France in part in fairness down to Welsh attitude but also down to French carelessness.

It only takes seconds to score a try though. The frustration was that as France were on 6 ahead, Wales didn't really force the play - as a fan, that was horrible, but it meant they trusted their systems, trusted their experience, and got the win by 1 point. They didn't have to start overplaying, putting in a blood and thunder effort on 60 minutes. They scored with 7 minutes to go - it's not a last gasp victory. The template is so well worn by now, I'm surprised people don't just accept that this is the way Gatland coaches his teams. You can't keep calling them 'Houdini escapes' if they keep happening - unless, of course, you accept Wales are as skilled as Houdini...without the unintentional suffocation.

No I thought Wales showed good attitude however, you arent not going to convince we the plan was to win by a point in the last minute.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:39 am

Yeah. Poor choices certainly. They ain't very good. And theres always a mistake waiting to happen. Didn't expect it to be the elbow granted but thought they'd blow it.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:43 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:France were all over Wales Miaow. It was another Houdini escape for Wales against France in part in fairness down to Welsh attitude but also down to French carelessness.

It only takes seconds to score a try though. The frustration was that as France were on 6 ahead, Wales didn't really force the play - as a fan, that was horrible, but it meant they trusted their systems, trusted their experience, and got the win by 1 point. They didn't have to start overplaying, putting in a blood and thunder effort on 60 minutes. They scored with 7 minutes to go - it's not a last gasp victory. The template is so well worn by now, I'm surprised people don't just accept that this is the way Gatland coaches his teams. You can't keep calling them 'Houdini escapes' if they keep happening - unless, of course, you accept Wales are as skilled as Houdini...without the unintentional suffocation.

No I thought Wales showed good attitude however, you arent not going to convince we the plan was to score by a point in the last minute.

Looking at Gats face during that last 10 minutes his belief that they would pull it off was draining fast.

Commentators made a big thing of the 5m attacking scrum at the other end where France packed down without a number 8, ignoring they had done it in the previous one. Put someone in at No8 there and there was a good chance of getting a penalty to put France 9 points clear. That was a dumb decision that benefitted Wales but was not in their control.

I thought Wales looked really nervous in that game, but expect them to be more relaxed on Sunday.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:44 am

miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

No. It means France were clearly not in complete control. Neither team was. It's an utterly dull (becoming my favourite expression, cheers Brian) thing to say.

It's only dull because it's entirely true, France were in control, means little when you end up losing but it's still how it was.

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Post by ebop on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:48 am

LondonTiger wrote:I thought Wales looked really nervous in that game, but expect them to be more relaxed on Sunday.
More relaxed against SA than a wonky France?
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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:54 am

ebop wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought Wales looked really nervous in that game, but expect them to be more relaxed on Sunday.
More relaxed against SA than a wonky France?

Yes.

Last week there was the burden of expectation on them. No-one expected them to lose and that adds pressure, especially as losing would have put their campaign down as a failure. This week while they will expect to win, there is not the same pressure from outside. They will be able to push themselves as the underdogs and for whatever reason Wales do seem to prefer to be underdogs. So yes I do expect them to be more relaxed.

(How often do you see a goal kicker missing important kicks that are fairly straight forward, then bang one over from the touch line. It is because they relax knowing that no-one is expecting it to go over.)

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Post by Guest on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:57 am

I agree this was different to the 6Ns game - I thought they'd lose when North botched the overlap, as that's the kind of position Wales typically take. It felt like 4 years ago v Australia where the pressure got to the team. But, great composure from Wales - it wasn't a last minute victory, they scored with 7 minutes to play. Plenty of time. How often do NZ score sucker punch tries? Seems it doesn't count when it's Wales...

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Post by Guest on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 12:58 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

No. It means France were clearly not in complete control. Neither team was. It's an utterly dull (becoming my favourite expression, cheers Brian) thing to say.

It's only dull because it's entirely true, France were in control, means little when you end up losing but it's still how it was.

The cognitive dissonance here is stunning...

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Let's put the 1/4's in perspective... - Page 2 Empty Re: Let's put the 1/4's in perspective...

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 1:00 am

miaow wrote:I agree this was different to the 6Ns game - I thought they'd lose when North botched the overlap, as that's the kind of position Wales typically take. It felt like 4 years ago v Australia where the pressure got to the team. But, great composure from Wales - it wasn't a last minute victory, they scored with 7 minutes to play. Plenty of time. How often do NZ score sucker punch tries? Seems it doesn't count when it's Wales...

No-one is saying it doesn't count.

People are just saying that in this specific game France lost it just as much as Wales won it. Not dissimilar to to 2017 in Cardiff. Great try from England to sneak the win, but seriously aided by some brainfarts (caused by fatigue) from Wales.

Gatland said that the better team lost - and on the day that seems a fair statement. But you know what, I prefer a real win over a moral win. France could slink away from Japan with their moral victory but Wales stay and can still make history.


Last edited by LondonTiger on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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