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SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST (PART 2)

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Post by Guest Fri 25 Oct 2019, 2:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

Because everyone else is getting a bit excited and the first thread is going to spill over during the match.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

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Post by Taylorman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 6:45 pm

miaow wrote:Nope. It was spot on and completely fair.

NZ were overly hungry against an over the hill Ireland. Too much focus and prep went in to beating the team that had beaten them, rather than who was the demonstrably better team. It's not just the players that are at fault for that - it's the coaches, too. He knows the implications of that question and he knows it's spot on.

Classic bully tactics from Hansen. You don't bite on a question like that unless you know it's true.

Nope, disagree. Happy to. You read too much into that. Hansen was not having a England’s effort taken away by a cheeky reporter. You’re saying England won because the ABs didn’t put their usual effort in?

I wouldn’t disrespect them that way, neither did Hansen. But hey, happy for you to think England got lucky, for sure.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Oct 2019, 6:53 pm

Damn. That means rettalick still doesnt know Lawes' name is curtis.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 26 Oct 2019, 6:54 pm

I don't think you can fault the All Blacks for hunger and ambition. They were definitely trying to play, and when they did get their attack going some of the offloading and passing was superb (at least, the stuff that wasn't forward).

But England didn't allow them the time and space to do that for more than a few short passages. The line speed in defence was so suffocating that it forced them into making mistakes and playing deep rather than flat, which just fed the England tackle machine even more.

And for about 65 minutes of the game, England simply controlled every key aspect. The game was played where England wanted it played, down the channels they wanted it aged in. Like Wales against Australia, there was then a point where they looked out on their feet and their defence looked ragged, but they rallied very quickly and took back enough control to run out the clock.
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Post by Taylorman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:01 pm

For once Stephen Jones has it right. Men versus Boys. Hansen took the risk of playing youth and excitement over experience and got caught out. Said before the match, and before the Irish match the ABs have to either go up early and clear away or they’ll get beaten by experience. The kids he selected won’t be able to close out a match of attrition and Jordie typified that exactly, getting caught in the headlights and turned over.

Don’t think having Crotty and Ben Smith and co would have helped but England turned up the aggression big time.

Hansen has been done like a dinner in the prep stakes. What he hoped to make his legacy...bringing in youth well before they’re fully ready for test rugby, has ultimately become his downfall.

NZ weren’t gonna win regardless, but it’s now a bit disrespectful to those players who have been through the tough matches before, to see ‘kids’ running around in their places. They may have been up for it, but they sure couldn’t handle it.

Anyway, another lesson learned, gotta be able to walk before you can run.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:08 pm

No, not reading too much in to it at all.

Hansen's not used to losing. Kiwis as well. End of the road for him and he knows it - the signs were there and it was only really you who was in denial of NZ's failings on these boards. No one 'expected' an English performance like that, but most knew it was distinctly possible they would outgun NZ for at leat 60, which might be enough to win. In the end they did it for 80 and it could easily have been 30-odd nil to England.

A bit more decorum instead of bullying a Kiwi journalist would be nice. Maybe he's been too long outside Wales to know how to handle reporters - but what is a fairly mundane question about prep doesn't deserve a response to offer him outside. Hansen's ugly side coming out there, taking it out on one of his own as it looks like he needed an avenue, and better to do it to those who will be determining his legacy rather than a journo from overseas, where there's less consequence but it'll also seem bitter.

Think it's just a difference in attitude really. The next NZ coach is unlikely to be able to get away with that old school approach. Time's have changed. Can't be hinting at beating the sh1t in to a journalist because you don't like his question.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:08 pm

Poorfour wrote:I don't think you can fault the All Blacks for hunger and ambition. They were definitely trying to play, and when they did get their attack going some of the offloading and passing was superb (at least, the stuff that wasn't forward).

But England didn't allow them the time and space to do that for more than a few short passages. The line speed in defence was so suffocating that it forced them into making mistakes and playing deep rather than flat, which just fed the England tackle machine even more.

And for about 65 minutes of the game, England simply controlled every key aspect. The game was played where England wanted it played, down the channels they wanted it aged in. Like Wales against Australia, there was then a point where they looked out on their feet and their defence looked ragged, but they rallied very quickly and took back enough control to run out the clock.

Yep, bang on. Nearly every exchange you could see NZ struggled to get parity, England all over them. Gave up thinking NZ could come back late because of the selections. The Jordie Barrett’s and George bridges of this world don’t have the hard earned bitter experience to recover matches like that.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:09 pm

I don't see that much different to Jones going with Curry, Underhill and Daly over Robshaw and Brown. It's an easy decision to blame in hindsight but you pick the best players at the time.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:10 pm

miaow wrote:No, not reading too much in to it at all.

Hansen's not used to losing. Kiwis as well. End of the road for him and he knows it - the signs were there and it was only really you who was in denial of NZ's failings on these boards. No one 'expected' an English performance like that, but most knew it was distinctly possible they would outgun NZ for at leat 60, which might be enough to win. In the end they did it for 80 and it could easily have been 30-odd nil to England.

A bit more decorum instead of bullying a Kiwi journalist would be nice. Maybe he's been too long outside Wales to know how to handle reporters - but what is a fairly mundane question about prep doesn't deserve a response to offer him outside. Hansen's ugly side coming out there, taking it out on one of his own as it looks like he needed an avenue, and better to do it to those who will be determining his legacy rather than a journo from overseas, where there's less consequence but it'll also seem bitter.

Think it's just a difference in attitude really. The next NZ coach is unlikely to be able to get away with that old school approach. Time's have changed. Can't be hinting at beating the sh1t in to a journalist because you don't like his question.

Geez, still not getting things. Leave you with it then. Not arguing for the sake of dumb reasoning.your chip needs to come off before you can see things more clearly. All good. We agree to disagree.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:18 pm

Ben Smith would definitely have helped in my opinion.

There were too many instances of NZ running the ball in to touch. Fine margins can turn games. Here, NZ never got a release from the pressure. Their first possession beyond England's 10m line was botched - Reece running in to touch - and then they got super lucky with the try. No sstained pressure. Not even a shot at goal.

Today, we saw NZ reduced to what every other nation suffers some times - for the likes of Ialy, it's almost every match day. And that is a team that fails to get any sort of foothold in the game, is forced to clear their lines by kicking, but cannot turn the opposition back 3 over when they run back, or disrupt the lineout when they kick it out.

If you're looking at comparisons to 4 years ago - as we've heard a lot of in the last 7 days - NZ thumped France in the QFs, yes, but they also beat a leggy and old SA by a mere 2 points. And that was with the old guard there, doing the basics, kicking a drop goal etc.

Did Mo'unga-Barrett work today? No, clearly not. Barrett's a fine player, but is he a world class 10? The dury's still out. With DMac gone, and no clear alternative overseas (Cruden, Sopoaga wouldn't be better than Mo'unga) that lack of control and experience outside their world class 9s clearly didn't help. In hindsight, so did the lack of bulk in midfield - what difference might a marauding Laumape have made?

It seems NZ were a bit too fixated on the basketball-offloading running game with the two playmakers. They needed to be able to adapt, to go back to Ben Smith at 15 as and when.

I really can't believe it - it seems obvious - but you pick the team for the opposition. EJ has rotated with the 10-12 perfectly and got it right both times. It would be a shock to bench Ford now, but he could do it for the final depending on who they play - Ford's usually had a rough time v Wales early doors so he may want him closing out the game if Wales get through.

But either way, I do think there was some...rigidity...to Hanse's (and Foster's and Fox's?) selections in the latter stages. Particularly this game. The most obvious area was the back 3, and that ineperience was costly for NZ earlier today.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:19 pm

Agree with whatever you want T.

You can't go offering out journalists when they ask fair and mild questions just becase you've lost.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:24 pm

Blah blah. Rather have a passionate coach than a benign one. Ooh can’t have this, can’t have that...whoopdy doo. anyway it’s done, no point in dragging nothing out, you can though, fill yer boots. Lawns to mow. thumbsdown

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:26 pm

Precisely the kind of response expected from you tbf. Inane.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:27 pm

As any one seen the stat's ( player) stats that is?

Surely most of England will be high up on the numbers stake.

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Post by quinsforever Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:31 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50196106

Stay humble.

Thought that was a good response. The reporter tried to take the win effort away from England by saying the ABs didn’t want it enough. Hansen put the reporter in his place, telling him the ABs  were up for it but just weren’t good enough on the night, England were too good.

not exactly...crap question from the reporter, but then hansen admits he told his players at half time they needed to be hungrier.....

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Post by Scottrf Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:37 pm

miaow wrote:Nope. It was spot on and completely fair.

NZ were overly hungry against an over the hill Ireland. Too much focus and prep went in to beating the team that had beaten them, rather than who was the demonstrably better team. It's not just the players that are at fault for that - it's the coaches, too. He knows the implications of that question and he knows it's spot on.

Classic bully tactics from Hansen. You don't bite on a question like that unless you know it's true.

Nah, it's absolute horse$hit.

This is why I don't read the sports reporting of any of these outlets. NZ lost, so they didn't try hard enough. Easier than analysing the actual game.

He's just been knocked out of the World Cup, after the incredible amount of effort he and his team has put into it towards preparation and during the game. Classless question.

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:43 pm

The best thing about England in this world cup?

On forums and websites all over no-one is talking about Don Armand or Danny Cipriani.

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Post by Noble-Surfer Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:45 pm

Congrats England- absolutely superb performance! Took the game to New Zealand, and completely blew them away! Just hoping we (Wales) are the ones joining you in the final!

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:47 pm

Scottrf wrote:
miaow wrote:Nope. It was spot on and completely fair.

NZ were overly hungry against an over the hill Ireland. Too much focus and prep went in to beating the team that had beaten them, rather than who was the demonstrably better team. It's not just the players that are at fault for that - it's the coaches, too. He knows the implications of that question and he knows it's spot on.

Classic bully tactics from Hansen. You don't bite on a question like that unless you know it's true.

Nah, it's absolute horse$hit.

This is why I don't read the sports reporting of any of these outlets. NZ lost, so they didn't try hard enough. Easier than analysing the actual game.

He's just been knocked out of the World Cup, after the incredible amount of effort he and his team has put into it towards preparation and during the game. Classless question.

Agreed. Hansen will always be remembered as a great ABs coach.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:51 pm

Scottrf wrote:
miaow wrote:Nope. It was spot on and completely fair.

NZ were overly hungry against an over the hill Ireland. Too much focus and prep went in to beating the team that had beaten them, rather than who was the demonstrably better team. It's not just the players that are at fault for that - it's the coaches, too. He knows the implications of that question and he knows it's spot on.

Classic bully tactics from Hansen. You don't bite on a question like that unless you know it's true.

Nah, it's absolute horse$hit.

This is why I don't read the sports reporting of any of these outlets. NZ lost, so they didn't try hard enough. Easier than analysing the actual game.

He's just been knocked out of the World Cup, after the incredible amount of effort he and his team has put into it towards preparation and during the game. Classless question.

Of course it's bull5shit. That's par for the course. It comes with the territory of becoming a corporate, global, professional game. Can't reap the benefits of brand All Blacks, use the media to pressure refs and opponents, use the media as a mouthpiece for the All Blacks and NZ rugby then throw your toys out of the pram and call it 'bull5hit' when the media wants a few scraps for their own priorities - which are hits, clicks etc.

It's really not a classless question. It's an open question. It allows the coach to deal with it as they wish. He's decided to let rip. I've given the reasons why.

Either way, you can't go threatening to beat a journalist up. Very tyrannical behaviour.

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Post by pledgeX Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:52 pm

Stunning game. Curry and Underhill are absolute beasts, and I don't think Watson gets enough praise, he was class today.

Regarding May's injury, he looked at 75% speed from the kick off imo. But I'm pretty sure he had ice on his quad, not his hamstring after coming off. Hoping he can return for the final. I wouldn't be too concerned if Nowell is fit, but big Joe concerns me defensively.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 26 Oct 2019, 7:54 pm

He didn't threaten to beat him up. He offered him a free lesson. Very generous. I'd imagine the journalist needs it.

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Post by Old Man Sat 26 Oct 2019, 8:12 pm

Scottrf wrote:He didn't threaten to beat him up. He offered him a free lesson. Very generous. I'd imagine the journalist needs it.

Agreed, it is easy these days to interpret anything in a sentence.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 26 Oct 2019, 8:23 pm

Haha good old Hansen, he’ll always say it how it is.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Oct 2019, 8:31 pm

True LT. Ford has been simply brilliant this world cup.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 8:42 pm

I have said it before England play better, when Ford and Farrell play side by side from the start.

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:07 pm

Mako 28
George 28
Sinckler 26
Itoje 25 (on Monday)
Lawes 30
Curry 21
Underhill 23
Billy V (27 on 3/11)

All bar Lawes have another RWC in them.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:10 pm

Kieran Read is 34. Okay Lawes has had a punishing career.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:19 pm

Scottrf wrote:Kieran Read is 34. Okay Lawes has had a punishing career.
Big paper round when he was a kid. Very Happy

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:34 pm

I reckon Lawes will make the next world cup if he wants to but Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury will all make it so not a bad situation.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:36 pm

Agree, Watson does the tidy things well. That extra burst of pace allows him to get round the outside. He's done it against NZ for a while. Increasingly, pace is king - just look at Beauden.

Wasn't Watson an injury scare as well?


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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:36 pm

Scottrf wrote:He didn't threaten to beat him up. He offered him a free lesson. Very generous. I'd imagine the journalist needs it.

He's implying he'll get him on the rugby field and smash him about. Effectively the same thing.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:38 pm

One thing not mentioned - but will if England win the world cup, and will become like the perennial 'no on ever mentions this' when they really do - but Marler coming out of retirement was an absolutely huge call. As good as Genge can become, Moon and all the other LH pretenders have nothing on Marler, who is still one of the best props in the world.

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Post by yappysnap Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:39 pm

Incredible win by England. Totally comprehensively outplayed NZ in every part of the game.

I watched the match on a pub full of kiwis and for large parts you could have cut the tension with a knife. Best test match in a long time.

Eddie Jones had a plan and it was perfect, the England boys played it almost to a t and NZ were totally flummoxed. Special mentions to Curry, Underhill, Manu and Itoje but tbh it was a true 23 man performance.

Come on Wales now. Let's make it a 6Ns RWC final!

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Post by BamBam Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:52 pm

Ben Spencer flying out to Japan

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:56 pm

Sad for heinz but spencer was the form scrum half.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 9:56 pm

Looks set to join a few players who make their test debut in rugby world cup finals then.

From memory, there was an Australian prop/hooker in 2003, and a French scrum half (or winger?) in 2011. Not sure of names though.

Both teams were absolutely blowing around 30 minutes. Around 60 both sides were clearly hurting. Wonder how much that will impact recovery - not just for those injured.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:13 pm

Spencer is already capped if you're talking about him?

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:15 pm

Spencer has 3 caps.

All as replacement admittedly, and perhaps not much more than 10 minutes in total.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sad for heinz but spencer was the form scrum half.
What happend to heinz?

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:23 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Sad for heinz but spencer was the form scrum half.
What happend to heinz?

Torn hamstring.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:26 pm

Ah my mistake then, thought he was uncapped.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:29 pm

No word on a tighthead replacement which means good news on Sinckler

I expect Farrell to be OK and I guess if May is out there is coverage in the squad

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:29 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Sad for heinz but spencer was the form scrum half.
What happend to heinz?

Torn hamstring.
Shame, really it is a shame, i think he as played well when he as come on.
Lets hope that bringing Spencer in at this ;ate stage will be an indurance  to the England team.

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:31 pm

miaow wrote:Ah my mistake then, thought he was uncapped.

Played last 5 minutes against Scotland in 6Ns, and was on the bench for all 3 tests against SA last summer, but only came on twice. Most felt he was unlucky to be behind Heinz (or tbh Youngs) but apparently Jones felt he was not bossy enough.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 10:35 pm

He looks good v Sarries but I've always been dubious about certain players stepping up from that environment. For a 9, that's probably truer than any position. Have to wait and see. Seems lively, and a good kicker as well from what I've seen. I expect Jones will hope Youngs plays the 80, or at least 75, with him coming in this late.

Injuries are always a pretty good indication of how hard the game has gone. You don't usually see England suffer with that many knocks. Testament to how much they put on the line.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 26 Oct 2019, 11:03 pm

Rubbish eg. How did JD2 get his ‘knock’ most injuries are unfortunate another classic is Anscombe.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Oct 2019, 11:04 pm

For me today Sam Witelock had the worst game of his career. for the abs.

Who was your worst player on the game today.

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Post by Guest Sat 26 Oct 2019, 11:08 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/oct/26/england-haka-response-eddie-jones-idea-rugby-world-cup

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Post by Blueschief Sat 26 Oct 2019, 11:45 pm

Belated congrats to England on a stupendous match. What a game, and well deserved finalists. Commiserations to the Abs.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:01 am

ebop wrote:Eddie the hired gun

‘Show me the money beearches’

He’s a genius, god bless that farkin annoying Australian coont

This is the post of the whole tournament

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