Refreshed side

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 11 Nov 2019, 2:08 pm

I have been trying to find out, nothing on the club site, or other websites I can find, not into any social media such as Facebook or whatever so get nothing from that.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 11 Nov 2019, 2:34 pm

Boss Chris Boyd has given a full injury update ahead of Saints' Gallagher Premiership season opener at Saracens on Saturday.
There is mixed news for the black, green and gold, who remain without the likes of Dylan Hartley, Harry Mallinder, Alex Mitchell and Reece Marshall.

Boyd says Hartley, Mallinder and Mitchell are still nursing knee problems, while Marshall suffered a hamstring injury towards the end of last season.

But there is better news on the likes of Tom Wood, Jamie Gibson, Mike Haywood and Ollie Sleightholme.

"The best way I can put the whole injury thing is that there are those guys who are close to returning, and we've got them in a bunch," Boyd said.

"And then there are those guys who are two, three, four (weeks) and beyond away.

"Dylan, along with Harry, along with Alex Mitchell, along with Reece Marshall - they're still all considered long-term injured and are considered some way along the track away.

"They won't even come into consideration until the medical people say they are starting to be ready to be looked at so we've still got a few on the long-term injury list.

"Harry is just chugging away.

"He's had some little setbacks and it hasn't all been plain sailing for Harry.

"He's doing his return-to-play protocol on his knee and I don't think he's as far away as some of the others but we're not putting him under any pressure to return.

by Geordie Mon 11 Nov 2019, 3:10 pm

How old is Mallinder?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 11 Nov 2019, 3:16 pm

by Geordie Mon 11 Nov 2019, 3:54 pm

Ah well hes got time.

Although i do feel like ive been hearing how good Prince Harry is going to be for bloomin years now...

by Taylorman Mon 11 Nov 2019, 4:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marchant off to super rugby on loan as well. Interesting times for some of those younger quins players youd imagine.

Yes had a quick look at his highlights reel, he’ll be fun to watch, has a lot of skills and plays a very open game, should fit in with the Blues attacking style, so long as they can get a good pack this year. The Blues are well overdue for a return to the top of the NZ table. Hopefully we see a bit more of this from the Quinn’s deal.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 11 Nov 2019, 4:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well hes got time.

Although i do feel like ive been hearing how good Prince Harry is going to be for bloomin years now...

Cheers LT, a long way from hearing the scuttlebutt etc. about Saints these days.

HM has had a tough time for one so young, injured a fair bit but also paying the price for his ability to play in so many positions. Picked for England U20s a few years ago at 12 for the JWRC, gets moved to 10 during the first game, stayed their all tournament, made captain I believe and won the player of the tournament as well as the cup.

Just started to get settled at 12 again, Saints 10 gets injured, hello Harry. Gets back to 12 and both 15s get injured. Hello Harry

Personally, I think his best position is 12, hi size allows him to be all things you can want, he can truck it up as he is over 17 stone, at 6'5" he can get the offload away. Superb hands for passing 1m or 30m good turn of pace, step everything except tackling off his right shoulder for some reason. Used to be poor under the high ball but started to look good before injury. He has been out for knocking on a year now so hopefully will be back soon.

by lostinwales Mon 11 Nov 2019, 5:29 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well hes got time.

Although i do feel like ive been hearing how good Prince Harry is going to be for bloomin years now...

Cheers LT, a long way from hearing the scuttlebutt etc. about Saints these days.

HM has had a tough time for one so young, injured a fair bit but also paying the price for his ability to play in so many positions. Picked for England U20s a few years ago at 12 for the JWRC, gets moved to 10 during the first game, stayed their all tournament, made captain I believe and won the player of the tournament as well as the cup.

Just started to get settled at 12 again, Saints 10 gets injured, hello Harry. Gets back to 12 and both 15s get injured. Hello Harry

Personally, I think his best position is 12, hi size allows him to be all things you can want, he can truck it up as he is over 17 stone, at 6'5" he can get the offload away. Superb hands for passing 1m or 30m good turn of pace, step everything except tackling off his right shoulder for some reason. Used to be poor under the high ball but started to look good before injury. He has been out for knocking on a year now so hopefully will be back soon.

I watched him against Scotland in the U20 WC a few years back. He was pretty much the tallest player on the pitch, which is weird for a fly half. Marchant and Johnny Williams were in the same team.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:28 am

Said before that an injury to you or a main rival can drastically change the landscape. Not that long ago Clifford was in excellent form robshaw and haskell was on their last legs and he does his arm/shoulder missing the AIs and some of the 6 nations (from jaded memory). Now looking at a 23 and 21 year old at flanker for England along with the next setboff the rank pulling up trees he'd have to be very lucky to get another sniff. The 21 year old of course benefited from his brother and underhill being injured initially.

Mallinder still has a great chance. No one has as yet nailed down full back and to a lesser extent inside centre.if he can hit the ground running and catch an eye. A good overseas tour next year may be the making of him.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:32 am

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-men-to-tour-japan-in-2020

It was previously stated that most of the guys playing in the WC would get next summer off.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:35 am

Double edged sword. Clearly we need more of an eye on fatigue etc as post lions we dipped a lot. Makes it harder for these guys to be recognised however as it'll be seen as a saxons thing.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 2:01 pm

To be honest, we need to re-form the Saxons.
They were great mid season tours and allowed us as supporters to see the pipeline players in action.

Also, there are well publicised comments coming out of the Wales camp that Pivac will be looking outside Wales to secure new talent.
Without the Saxons (our designated 2nd team) we will end up seeing a good number of those dual-eligibility players not representing England.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 2:07 pm

Even with resting the core of the England squad we could still take a decent touring side -
(Ive included those that didn't play much)

Genge, LCD, H.Williams
Launchbury, Isekwe
Wilson, Ludlam, Hughes
Spencer
Marcus Smith
Cockanasinga
Slade
Joseph
Mulchrone
Nowell

Still taking plenty of Fringe guys too - Robson, Dombrant, Sam Simmons, Lozowski, Piers Francis, Jack Singleton, Alec Hepburn etc.
All guys that have been in camps before. There are some that would also be calling for Cipriani.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 2:28 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Even with resting the core of the England squad we could still take a decent touring side -
(Ive included those that didn't play much)

Genge, LCD, H.Williams
Launchbury, Isekwe
Wilson, Ludlam, Hughes
Spencer
Marcus Smith
Cockanasinga
Slade
Joseph
Mulchrone
Nowell

Still taking plenty of Fringe guys too - Robson, Dombrant, Sam Simmons, Lozowski, Piers Francis, Jack Singleton, Alec Hepburn etc.
All guys that have been in camps before. There are some that would also be calling for Cipriani.

Not many Glaws fans would be calling for it atm. They are not a happy bunch based on forums and so-shul meeja.

Mulchrone an odd selection - only one I can think of is the 30yo SH at Quins.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:01 pm

Sorry LT - was thinking of the Bath 7's chap!
What's the deal on Cipriani then? Do people now think he is not the Messiah?

by Gooseberry Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-men-to-tour-japan-in-2020

It was previously stated that most of the guys playing in the WC would get next summer off.

Yeah and thats another reason why I dont expected much radical change for the 6 nations.

Theres very few players in that core squad who are too old for the next world cup.

Be interesting to see if they stick by Cole though. He had to lift his game to get back into the first choice match side, and is unlikely to make the next world cup but might want to try to get the Lions as send off and is only 2 caps short of 100. Cant see him retiring himself until hes given word that England are moving on.

Marler ..well that depends if he goes back into retirement or not. Balls in his half of the pitch really.

Second row... Three will be near the end of their careers come the next world cup but none are too old to make it. Feel theres a strong case for someone to stick their hand up, and the summer should be a chance for the likes of Isk..that other chap from Saracens to relieve some salary cap burden on them by getting an EPS contract and improving the age profile there. But its not a problem area.

Wilsons the oldest back row at 29 so again no driver on age to mix things up there, but maybe another option at 8 if Vunipola is still held together by tape?

Heinz and Youngs..theres definitely a need to refresh there but who? Spencer seems to never have had anything more than a grudging acceptance there needs to be a third choice.

The rest of the backs are again young enough to make another WC, but if theres stand out centres and fullbacks available they could/should be given chances. Or maybe Watson shifted to 15 and Daly at 13. There room for shuffling but aside form resolving fullback no real drive to ditch core players on age or ability. Summertime Id want to see some fresh options at 10 with Farrell and Ford rested, Cipriani would be short termist and whilst adding experience to whats likely to be a very raw squad does nothing to address Englands longer term improvements.

by Gooseberry Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:07 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Sorry LT - was thinking of the Bath 7's chap!
What's the deal on Cipriani then? Do people now think he is not the Messiah?

Hes 32, and England dont have a desperate short term need for an experienced FH. If they have an eye on fidning players who can improve England for the next world cup its a waste of space investing time and test minutes in him.

His ships sailed. He did a lot to earn Jones taking a look at him, but wasnt the type of player England wanted to execute their gameplan and still isnt.

Its might be lambs to the slaughter but for the summer it should be the peripheral players form the WC squad and youngsters who have the potential to be better than the existing ones getting a stepping stone into the test side.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:18 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Sorry LT - was thinking of the Bath 7's chap!
What's the deal on Cipriani then? Do people now think he is not the Messiah?

His form is a little off this season. Replaced at half time against us (supposedly a calf strain) and pretty early against Sarries. That he was then in the audience for X Factor supporting Try Star has not gone down well with the fans. That it started filming about 3 hours after the match finished with a 2.5 hr drive left some wondering how he got there on time.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:38 pm

Talking about fringe England wingers - I would quite like some of the other youngsters to be involved while guys like May/Watson/Daly are given some time out.

O'Flaherty (Chiefs)
Ollie Thorley (Glaws)
Nathan Earl (Quins - injured)
Woodburn for a while was pretty good - injury?
How do Sarries fans think about Alex Lewington? Has he kicked on?

by Geordie Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:39 pm

We need to identify a FB and a 12 critically...

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:We need to identify a FB and a 12 critically...

Scrum half is more important imo. We need someone to come in, talk the hind legs of the pack to make them do the right things and have a decent all round game. Youngs has had ups and downs for England but until the final had never fallen apart as he did then under pressure.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 3:54 pm

Agree to all those -
No9. its hard to think beyond Ben Spencer, Robson isn't a spring chicken but if he can get gametime and form then he is a contender.
Like others have said I would imagine Youngs will still be around, but suspect Care will step back. But I would prefer it is Youngs does too. We need to move beyond.
Maunder looks OK for Chiefs. Are there any young EQ no.9's tearing it up out there?
I thought Ben Vellacott might have been in contention before injury.

As for the 12's -
I mentioned Lozowski above!
Jonny Williams was being talked about before his diagnosis (great to read he is on the way to recovery).
Ollie Devoto
Piers Francis

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:03 pm

15's -
Woodward (Glaws) was looked at in one of the squads, seems to have started the Prem season well.
The Sarries youngster - Malins has been talked about a lot (looks like a Goode v2 - very good distribution and slick running lines)
Hammersly at Falcons was talked about a while ago.
Could we be considering Ashton as a 15 now considering his time with Toulon?

Matt Protheroe of Bristol - though I think he may be Welsh.

by Soul Requiem Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:07 pm

At 32 it's safe to say that Ashton won't be at the next world cup.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:14 pm

The big mark against Spencer is that he is deemed to be too quiet. It should also be noted that he is only 4 months younger than Robson.

Part of the problem is that the promising youngsters are behind more established players - often overseas.

Alex Mitchell - shone for England v Barbarians, behind Reinach at Saints and currently injured.
Ben White - on the bench for England v Barbarians, behind Youngs at Leicester
Maundersx2 - Behind Nic White at Exeter
Vellacott - Behind Robson at Wasps, currently injured.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:14 pm

There is that argument then...are we building now for France in 4yrs time. Or are we going to pick the best players in their position that are fit at the time of selection?
If Eddie has said the bulk of the WC squad will get the summer off - suggests to me that he is going to pick a lot of them for the 6N.

You are right though...perhaps the time has past for Ashy.

The great thing is that the majority of the England WC squad are still very young and (barring injury) will still be challenging for places.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:16 pm

I thought Nic White was supposed to be leaving for Japan or heading back to an Australian franchise! Perhaps I read that wrong somewhere.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:24 pm

Not 100% sure if he is returning, but initial statement was he was leaving at the end of the season.

by Geordie Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:28 pm

Evolution not revolution.

Fix 9, 12, 15

Majority of the squad and 1st XV to stay the same.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:41 pm

Given marchant is unavailable in the 6 nations ope s up the door to Tompkins for a squad spot and to push his case for 12.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Nov 2019, 4:59 pm

I had forgotten about Tompkins - Good shout there.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Nov 2019, 6:32 pm

Another guy who is behind a big name at saracens. Personally I think he'd do well.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 8:38 pm

Barritt does not have much longer I would think.

by Geordie Tue 12 Nov 2019, 9:33 pm

Tompkins has started the season very well...

How old is he...seems to have been around a long time now. 24/25?

Whats slade...about the same?

Devoto probably about the same aswell?

Is it Lawrence at Wuss that was making big waves aswell?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:10 pm

Tompkins turns 25 in Feb.

Slade is 26, 27 in March (less than a week younger than George Ford)

Devoto is 6 months younger than Slade.

Ollie Lawrence is just turned 20 and was impressing before injury back in the spring.

by king_carlos Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:11 pm

Tompkins is 24. Slade and Devoto are 26, they were the same age grade for U20s from memory.

Lawrence has just turned 20 and is a live wire outside-centre. Lawrence, Marchant and Dingwall are all huge talents at 13 in fact.

Tompkins is an England centre who looks just as good at 12 and 13. That could help him going forward given that Slade, Manu and JJ are all much better at 13 and Farrell only covers 12 but prefers 10.

Francis was good in the warm-ups but if we want a playmaker at 12 I don't see any reason to pick Farrell-Francis over Ford-Farrell. He hasn't really done anything wrong in his 9 caps so it seems harsh but I don't see what he adds to the side over the established centre options.

by yappysnap Wed 13 Nov 2019, 1:02 am

Any one remember when Wigglesworth burst on the scene and lead England to a thrashing of France and Ireland in the 6N's? He marshalled the forwards all game and never stopped talking. I don't recall any 9's playing for England quite like that again.

by BamBam Wed 13 Nov 2019, 1:52 am

Redpath is my pick to come through at 12, Eddie has clearly identified him but the injury was obviously a big setback

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Nov 2019, 7:36 am

BamBam wrote:Redpath is my pick to come through at 12, Eddie has clearly identified him but the injury was obviously a big setback

The gouging ban did not help, plus we do not know yet whether he will declare for England

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Nov 2019, 7:37 am

yappysnap wrote:Any one remember when Wigglesworth burst on the scene and lead England to a thrashing of France and Ireland in the 6N's? He marshalled the forwards all game and never stopped talking. I don't recall any 9's playing for England quite like that again.

He has always been a bossy 9, and with the current issues more important to Sarries than Spencer.

by Cumbrian Wed 13 Nov 2019, 10:10 am

LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:Redpath is my pick to come through at 12, Eddie has clearly identified him but the injury was obviously a big setback

The gouging ban did not help, plus we do not know yet whether he will declare for England

Was it not a ban for biting?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Nov 2019, 10:16 am

Cumbrian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:Redpath is my pick to come through at 12, Eddie has clearly identified him but the injury was obviously a big setback

The gouging ban did not help, plus we do not know yet whether he will declare for England

Was it not a ban for biting?

Ah possibly. Blame my senility.

by Cumbrian Wed 13 Nov 2019, 10:28 am

No worries LT

Going back to earlier conversations, when I look at Mallinder I worry that I see Billy Twelvetrees' silhouette. I would definitely concede to people with greater knowledge of his general play, but I have the impression that there is potential for brainfarts in there. Perhaps I'm wrong, it has a vague idea I have about him.

Tompkins looks a good player, but he is often in a dominant Sarries team, so I wonder what he will/would like in international adversity.

I know Lawrence comes with a big rep, but I thought he was quite underwhelming for the U20s. I would be very surprised if he was ready for international rugby in the near future.

by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2019, 10:57 am

king_carlos wrote:Tompkins is 24. Slade and Devoto are 26, they were the same age grade for U20s from memory.

Lawrence has just turned 20 and is a live wire outside-centre. Lawrence, Marchant and Dingwall are all huge talents at 13 in fact.

Tompkins is an England centre who looks just as good at 12 and 13. That could help him going forward given that Slade, Manu and JJ are all much better at 13 and Farrell only covers 12 but prefers 10.

Francis was good in the warm-ups but if we want a playmaker at 12 I don't see any reason to pick Farrell-Francis over Ford-Farrell. He hasn't really done anything wrong in his 9 caps so it seems harsh but I don't see what he adds to the side over the established centre options.

So is Farrell heads and tails above Ford? Would Farrell not get dropped? Or is he the "talisman" and best 10 we have?

by Gooseberry Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:20 am

Not sure about a talisman but short term Farrells likely to remain captain.

I expect next AIs we will see a much bigger reshaping. The fresh faces will have had a chance to shine and its a better time to look at a new captain.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:29 am

Farrell will stay as skipper. Gatland name checked him along with AWJ and Itoje as possible Lions captains.

by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:31 am

I actually dont want Farrell as Captain. i think hes a very good general type but not the out and out leader. Plus he needs to focus on 10 and his playmaking ability.

i wonder if young Curry could turn out to be an option in time....

The 10 spot is an interesting one. There is going to be some competition there very soon aswell...
Farrell, Ford, Smith, Vunipola, Grayson etc etc.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:34 am

I still like the look of Joe Simmonds at 10. Maybe Smith has been going through a sophomore slump but he has, for me, yet to kick on. Manu Vunipola is a long way from threatening the England lineup but is at a good place to learn Grayson Jr (James?) does look composed.

by Gooseberry Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:47 am

LondonTiger wrote:Farrell will stay as skipper. Gatland name checked him along with AWJ and Itoje as possible Lions captains.

If Gatlands media comments are the main driver for selecting the England team we could save a lot of money by getting rid of Jones.

Anyway Im not suggesting Farrell should lose the captaincy, just if it is something thats being seriously considered then the AIs is the time to be making the big change. There will be a different captain for the summer tour of course, but for them to keep the job they need to be a player who justifies a long term starting spot.

by Guest Wed 13 Nov 2019, 11:54 am

Joe Simmonds isn't test quality in my opinion. Not unless England are really short on options.

I agree that Farrell isn't the ideal captain but I also cannot see a better options now Hartley's gone. It's basically Farrell or Itoje by the looks of things, and Itoje is still a few years away. I said I wonder what kind of job Underhill might do in the shirt but ultimately lots of pressure on him, perhaps too much, just to start. You don't need a team of captains but I honestly cannot see an outstanding candidate for England, which is rare, and the first time I think I've ever thought that. Even when Vickery and Pat Sanderson (!?) were named captain, briefly, it was clear there were better alternatives. Not sure there are in this team. Jamie George? No. Props? No. Launchbury maybe if he was a starter? But atm he's not even a 23 option. Billy? Nope. Curry? No. Underhill or Itoje the only two in the pack as I can see it. Or maybe Mark Wilson as a stop gap? Not ridiculous but probably more of a lieutenant, not one to call the shots. Youngs/another 9? Nope. Any outstanding back? That's where Farrell comes in.

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