Refreshed side

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

Cumbrian wrote:Does Dan Cole make the Six Nations squad?  What is everybody's opinions?

From my point of view, I would include him but I would like to see a young tighthead come along as an apprentice.  I’m thinking one of Ehren Painter (Northampton), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Will Stuart (Bath) or Ciaran Knight (Gloucester).

Isnt he the one moving to football? As a keeper?

The sentimental side of me would like to see Cole get his 100th cap but in reality Williams should be the bench option from now on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Does Dan Cole make the Six Nations squad?  What is everybody's opinions?

From my point of view, I would include him but I would like to see a young tighthead come along as an apprentice.  I’m thinking one of Ehren Painter (Northampton), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Will Stuart (Bath) or Ciaran Knight (Gloucester).

Isnt he the one moving to football? As a keeper?

No. That rumour was just a little bit of mischief. His grandfather was a keeper (for Leicester City and Swansea City), his father was a keeper (Journeyman), and Joe was on Forest's books as a keeper to the age of 14.

Roger

Painter, added to Sinks and possibly Williams would be good.

Painter coming onto the bench for a couple of games, he is holding his own against some pretty good players at the moment and at over 20 stone with good mobility and hands I think he is the one that will hopefully make it. Dis well fro England against the Ba Bas last year.

Ben Obano is one that could step up.
Lewis Boyce too - although needs to get his penalty count down.
I am aware they aren't all TH's.
Josh Ibankope - isn't getting much gametime at Sarries. Is an absolute unit, but needs to work on fitness and technique (If Sarries can do a Will Skelton on him) then he is one to watch - Or he could become another James Johnston.

Is it time to start a new argument that will be partly recycled from Lee Mears and Tom youngs yet? Harry Thacker: yes or no.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it time to start a new argument that will be partly recycled from Lee Mears and Tom youngs yet? Harry Thacker: yes or no.

Thacker is a better hooker than both of those, and better round the park. His lineout is perhaps the best in the league. He is however rather ickle (though weight wise not much lighter than Schalk Brits)

Soul Requiem wrote:The sentimental side of me would like to see Cole get his 100th cap but in reality Williams should be the bench option from now on.

Yep. Id guess Cole for the extended training squad though, and lets face it one of the three options is bound to be injured at some point during the 6 nations so that still gives him a fair shot at the 100th cap. 

Its one of the positions where there's a natural reason to make changes and start elevating the world cup third choice.  Im sure Cole would love to hang out and get a shot at the next Lions tour but for England its the right time to start looking forward.

Yes more the size issue which sprung to my mind LT, similar to questions in Simmonds. I have to admit I dismissed Thacker from my thoughts but hes been excellent for Bristol. Him between someone like Genge and painter in a year or 2 may be pretty tasty.

Jamie George is an immense player though. Thacker is quality...but George is amonsgt the very best in the world.

I would certainly be looking to put him in the squad to get a good look how he copes in the squad though .

Aside from the South Africans...are there any huge sides out there anymore?

If you have Simmonds at 8 (who still looks like a powerful guy) ..do you need extra bulk elsewhere in the pack or back row to compensate?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Aside from the South Africans...are there any huge sides out there anymore?

If you have Simmonds at 8 (who still looks like a powerful guy) ..do you need extra bulk elsewhere in the pack or back row to compensate?

if you have Curry and Underhill on the flanks, yes. It is difficult to compensate for a big 8 by putting a big guy at 6, the dynamics of the shove are a bit lateral rather than 100% straight

Its balance as ever. Hill and Dombrandt are large guys who cover 6 and more 8 for the latter.

Id say that only Ben Curry is currently nailed on, although Billy is close.

lostinwales wrote:Id say that only Ben Curry is currently nailed on, although Billy is close.

Not sure Ben is capped yet.

I might be alone but if Will Collier can stay fit I rate him more highly than Harry Williams. Collier is an excellent scrummager.

Williams is solid around the park but his frequent no arms chop tackle always worries me and I don't think he's the best scrummager around. He does use his considerable bulk well carrying in the tight and in the maul though, two of Exeter's great strengths. Williams is frequent carrier around the fringes during Chiefs signature 20-odd phase barrages in the opposition 22.

Collier looked good in Argentina in 2017, but injuries and Sinckler have impacted on his playing time.

I thought Painter did well for the England team vs the Baa-Baas in the summer. He's certainly one to watch. I rated Will Stuart last season when he was at Wasps (like most of the good players, they let him go), and I have to agree with the thoughts about Will Collier. Kieran Brooks never really made it past the Lancaster days, and the game has moved on now - whilst still a good player, I don't think he has that extra few percent that an international player needs - he can do the job but that's it.

As for Thacker, he's a fine player, but I feel that the likes of Singleton and LCD are WAY ahead of him as a back up to Jamie George. Tommy Taylor was another of those marked for great things, but has never really pushed on. Isn't he in the One Cap Club?

I still think that Mako Vunipola needs some extra coaching on the way he scrummages. It's all very well being called one of the best Looseheads in World Rugby, but if your basic scrummaging technique sees you collapse on numerous occasions, then you aren't doing a very good job. Perhaps he should listen to Joe Marler...

LCD and Singleton both seem to have the yips at lineout time right now.

Reliable line-out technicians seem thin on the ground when it comes to hookers at the moment, they either seem injury prone, bulldozers with iffy skills or seemingly too small.

Has Singleton gone back to Sarracens.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Has Singleton gone back to Sarracens.

Yes and has played a fair bit this season. His lineout though has struggled - perhaps not helped by the rapid rotation of locks.

Regarding Thacker, I would love to give him a chance but I would be worried at the same time.  Perhaps have him on the bench?  However, there are a limited number of squad positions and you really want to make everyone of them count, so dunno.

To be honest, if LCD, Singleton or (God forbid) George get injured he might not actually be that far from a call up.

Mikey Haywood would do a decent job in an emergency, was always pushing Hartley before long term injury and his throwing in is pretty good.

All in all, bar the odd tweak i dont think there will be many changes for the 6n...and nor should there be. A young side that unexpectedly got to the World Cup final ....

Maybe in the summer we wil see a few more changes as senior players are rested.

The RWC players should all be getting next summer off unless they hardly played. The touring squad will have to be new.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Has Singleton gone back to Sarracens.

Yes and has played a fair bit this season. His lineout though has struggled - perhaps not helped by the rapid rotation of locks.

What's Singleton's work around the park been like? 

LCD is exceptional in the loose and in defence, so in my eyes it would take a lot to displace him for second place on the depth chart.

I used to play prop and hooker. The positions have changed enormously since my time but it seems props get injured a lot more than hookers these days. If I wanted a good run in my rugby career, I think I'd be tempted to switch from prop to hooker, even if props ostensibly get paid more.

GeordieFalcon wrote:All in all, bar the odd tweak i dont think there will be many changes for the 6n...and nor should there be. A young side that unexpectedly got to the World Cup final ....

Maybe in the summer we wil see a few more changes as senior players are rested.

I'm on a bi weekly reposting of this in between the " name every player in the premiership who isn't at leicester" posts.

We should see a smattering of new names around the training squad, but its unlikely that the 6 nations will be used for "blooding" and experimenting en masse.

The one area that will almost certainly have to have a new bench option if kot a new starter has strangely barely been discussed, scrum half.
Robson and Spencer were the next in line, are they doing enough to displace Youngs? I'm blanket assuming that Heinz given his age and that he was very much a one shot specific pick for the very specific game plan England had for the world cup wont get a spot in the 6 nations.

Many of the new players who do get in the squad now might not even get bench spots in the 6 nations, but could find themselves elevated to starters for the summer tour which has always been earmarked as a development/b team one and a chance for the core side to get a much needed break.

It's a very different position to Wales who are at a stage of " name a fit center who will be released for the entire 6 nations period" and pretending that they didn't spend years abusing England for picking residency qualified players.

Its notable that the age profile of Englands squad for the world cup left England in good shape for this cycle. Very few players (bar Vickery?) will be too old for the next one, so theres no rush to bring in new faces. Nor a need for a fundamental overhaul, the squad is still the best theyve had since 03.

The summer gives a good chance to the next generation to get a step up, and those who shine a chance in the following AIs to step into the then full strength A team.

It gives a nice natural evolution rather than forced wholesale change that we've seen from new coaches coming in to disheartened post world cup squads with blanket retirees or aging hangers on.

I'm fairly optimistic that Jones should be able to sustain a succesful England side and reign rather than reassemble the side. I guess short term the fatigue of the world cup and the changes in coaches ( not much time to learn the new patterns) might cause problems for this 6 nations, and the summer is just going to be one of those tours ( it's only japan mind and a bunch of youngsters should be sprightly enough to see them off) Next 6 nations will be the real test of where they are at.

It also goes back to what we would like in terms of tweaks vs what jones will see as a requirement. We should win the gs merely keeping the same squad as the wc so he could roll the dice in the summer.

Whats the crack with Jones. Is he staying, going, here for 2 years or to the next world cup?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats the crack with Jones. Is he staying, going, here for 2 years or to the next world cup?

Contracted to end of 20/21 season. All talks on future have been suspended.

Do we know who suspended the talks...RFU or Eddie or Mutual?

Harry Mallinder played his first game in a long time, (since October 18) yesterday for the Wanderers against Gloucester, he was apparently just about he biggest guy on the pitch having spent a lot of time in the gym during his very long layoff. Starting to look like a more physically structured Matt Banahan from the pics, probably over 18 stone now and apparently still got his pace.

He could be in with a shout for the England summer tour and move on from their.

He has the potential to be England's 15 or 12 for a long time to come.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Harry Mallinder played his first game in a long time, (since October 18) yesterday for the Wanderers against Gloucester, he was apparently just about he biggest guy on the pitch having spent a lot of time in the gym during his very long layoff. Starting to look like a more physically structured Matt Banahan from the pics, probably over 18 stone now and apparently still got his pace.

He could be in with a shout for the England summer tour and move on from their.

He has the potential to be England's 15 or 12 for a long time to come.

Ive heard that for the last 5 years....

Yes - but he's still a young guy not yet in 36mkII territory.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Harry Mallinder played his first game in a long time, (since October 18) yesterday for the Wanderers against Gloucester, he was apparently just about he biggest guy on the pitch having spent a lot of time in the gym during his very long layoff. Starting to look like a more physically structured Matt Banahan from the pics, probably over 18 stone now and apparently still got his pace.

He could be in with a shout for the England summer tour and move on from their.

He has the potential to be England's 15 or 12 for a long time to come.

Ive heard that for the last 5 years....

Still 23, been out for over a year which will have arrested his development, but he does have the complete set of skills and Boyd is exceptional and getting people to play to their potential. Imagine a 6'5" 18 stone full back, with pace, the passing ability of a 10 and a howitzer of a left foot.We have all seen how these very tall guys can get the offload away so much better than the normal size backs.

I genuinely hope it comes good WPI...he could have the same effect Folau had in the Aussie team...but we shall see.

FB is quite sparce really...if we avoid wingers moving to 15 (like Watson, Nowell etc)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we know who suspended the talks...RFU or Eddie or Mutual?

Reading between the lines, initially Eddie.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Harry Mallinder played his first game in a long time, (since October 18) yesterday for the Wanderers against Gloucester, he was apparently just about he biggest guy on the pitch having spent a lot of time in the gym during his very long layoff. Starting to look like a more physically structured Matt Banahan from the pics, probably over 18 stone now and apparently still got his pace.

He could be in with a shout for the England summer tour and move on from their.

He has the potential to be England's 15 or 12 for a long time to come.

Ive heard that for the last 5 years....

Still 23, been out for over a year which will have arrested his development, but he does have the complete set of skills and Boyd is exceptional and getting people to play to their potential. Imagine a 6'5" 18 stone full back, with pace, the passing ability of a 10 and a howitzer of a left foot.We have all seen how these very tall guys can get the offload away so much better than the normal size backs.

That lay off could have helped in some ways. Before the injury his form seemed to be nose diving, he seemed frustrated and always had a howler or two per game and his defence was just terrible at moments for such a big guy. He has all the skills, for me it's just mindset, he just seems to always make a mistake or two.

I'm totally guessing here, but I bet he was the biggest player in almost every age grade team or club side he played in until he went pro, then suddenly he's surrounded by guys just as big or bigger and it's been a shock, add to that the constant chopping and changing of positions and Northamptons previous coaching issues. Hopefully he'll come good because as you say. A fricking huge, quick, fall back with the skills of a 10 or centre would be brilliant.

I saw him for the U20's vs Scotland and he was the biggest guy on the pitch

He is a unit. Just a bit too 36ish at the moment!!

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we know who suspended the talks...RFU or Eddie or Mutual?

Reading between the lines, initially Eddie.

Id assumed it was partly down to having a new man in at at the top RFU side. But that can work both ways I guess, Eddie wanting to know which way the winds blowing with pro rugby as a whole in England, what he has to work with, and if anyones going to hold him to account for his backroom staff constantly walking, and if they can get coaches in he wants to work with. Plus how much cash is on the table.

yappysnap wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Harry Mallinder played his first game in a long time, (since October 18) yesterday for the Wanderers against Gloucester, he was apparently just about he biggest guy on the pitch having spent a lot of time in the gym during his very long layoff. Starting to look like a more physically structured Matt Banahan from the pics, probably over 18 stone now and apparently still got his pace.

He could be in with a shout for the England summer tour and move on from their.

He has the potential to be England's 15 or 12 for a long time to come.

Ive heard that for the last 5 years....

Still 23, been out for over a year which will have arrested his development, but he does have the complete set of skills and Boyd is exceptional and getting people to play to their potential. Imagine a 6'5" 18 stone full back, with pace, the passing ability of a 10 and a howitzer of a left foot.We have all seen how these very tall guys can get the offload away so much better than the normal size backs.

That lay off could have helped in some ways. Before the injury his form seemed to be nose diving, he seemed frustrated and always had a howler or two per game and his defence was just terrible at moments for such a big guy. He has all the skills, for me it's just mindset, he just seems to always make a mistake or two.

I'm totally guessing here, but I bet he was the biggest player in almost every age grade team or club side he played in until he went pro, then suddenly he's surrounded by guys just as big or bigger and it's been a shock, add to that the constant chopping and changing of positions and Northamptons previous coaching issues. Hopefully he'll come good because as you say. A fricking huge, quick, fall back with the skills of a 10 or centre would be brilliant.

Weren't his defensive liabilities often put down to him only being able to tackle on one shoulder due to the injury? Id he over that now?

I looked at some of the pictures of him during the Wanderers game, if he was a unit before, he is a heavyweight unit now, he has  a build similar to Lawes. Obviously very short on match fitness, only played 40 minutes. Grinning from ear to ear apparently just to get 40 minutes in.

Hopefully the Saints boss will pick a position for him (hopefully FB ) and not move him.

That is a position of strength for Saints, with both Furbank and Tuala, I have always thought that 12 was his natural position where he can play the big bruising lump who should make ground, but also as a second playmeker aks Farrell on steroids (hope not really). With his size, height and natural ability he has everything you need in a 12 and a whopping great big boot as well.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:That is a position of strength for Saints, with both Furbank and Tuala, I have always thought that 12 was his natural position where he can play the big bruising lump who should make ground, but also as a second playmeker aks Farrell on steroids (hope not really). With his size, height and natural ability  he has everything you need in a 12 and a whopping great big boot as well.

The flaws that mean he is not a 10 are still present at 12. Not as debilitating but for me still an issue. His decision making is iffy, especially when hurried. This happens because he is fairly slow in thought and the big body slow to start moving.

Got to be honest, I would like to see a number of front line players rested for the 6 nations.
Lets keep building a large pool of young, experienced internationals.