Champions Cup Rounds 1 & 2

First topic message reminder :

Friday 15th November

19:45 Gloucester v Toulouse


Saturday 16th November

13:00 Bath v Ulster
13:00 Glasgow v Sale
15:15 Leinster v Benetton
15:15 La Rochelle v Northampton
17:30 Ospreys v Munster
17:30 Clermont v Harlequins


Sunday 17th November

13:00 Connacht v Montpelier
13:00 Northampton v Lyons
15:15 Racing 92 v Saracens




Friday 22nd November

19:45 Ulster v Clermont


Saturday 23rd November

13:00 Saracens v Ospreys
13:00 Benetton v Northampton
13:00 Toulouse v Connacht
15:15 Lyon v Leinster
15:15 Exeter v Glasgow
17:30 Munster v Racing 92
17:30 Harlequins v Bath


Sunday 24th November

13:00 Sale v La Rochelle
15:15 Montpelier v Gloucester

No 7&1/2 wrote:As I walked out the house sales try was disallowed despite the conversion already taken. Has the rule changes on that? Cant find that it has on the wr website.

Halftime discussion seemed to suggest that there has been an instruction from WR that a try can be reviewed during and after the conversion.

Three red cards this weekend. The ones I seen were justified. The one against Scarlets' Fijian lock seemed soft but it was a clear red to the letter of the law. There was contact with the eye by the French hooker on Curry. No sure why Jacques Du Plessis got one.

The Xmas back to backs are looking interesting to see who can take control at the top of pools.

Pool 1
Leinster on 9 points each should be two great clashes.  If either side can do a double - they should qualify.  Both teams should ultimately.
Pool 2
Exeter 5 points clear look good for a potential double over Sale.
Pool 3
Trickier for Ulster who despite two wins have no bonus points.  They could be upset by Quins and allow Clermont to pass them out to the top.   Likely two qualifiers from this pool.

Pool 4
Definitely a three-way race with Racing, Munster and Saracens gunning for it.  The Munster v Saracens double could go with home team and Racing going top taking 10 points off the hapless Ospreys.  

Pool 5
Toulouse sitting on top and could go well clear with a double over French rivals Montpellier. Connacht and Gloucester making up the numbers.

I don't think Sarries will target the away games. Looks like it is Racing who are in control.

mikey_dragon wrote:Three red cards this weekend. The ones I seen were justified. The one against Scarlets' Fijian lock seemed soft but it was a clear red to the letter of the law. There was contact with the eye by the French hooker on Curry. No sure why Jacques Du Plessis got one.

Elbow to Grobler's face. Ref said "like the French guy in the World Cup"

It was a barn door red. Almost as stupid as the eye gouger!

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:As I walked out the house sales try was disallowed despite the conversion already taken. Has the rule changes on that? Cant find that it has on the wr website.

Halftime discussion seemed to suggest that there has been an instruction from WR that a try can be reviewed during and after the conversion.

They changed the rule a while back to say something like the conversion will only count if the referee has awarded the try - which presumably if they are still reviewing it mean that the conversion doesn't lock the try in place. IRRC some teams knowing that a try was "iffy" were taking quick conversions so the try would stand.

It has always been a silly concept..... a player taking a quick conversion automatically legitimising a try that video footage and a TMO either strongly suggests didn't happen or grounding wasn't sifficiently clear.  If the ref has to reconsider his initial rash call then a quick conversion kick shouldn't invalidate the reconsideration.

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Three red cards this weekend. The ones I seen were justified. The one against Scarlets' Fijian lock seemed soft but it was a clear red to the letter of the law. There was contact with the eye by the French hooker on Curry. No sure why Jacques Du Plessis got one.

Elbow to Grobler's face. Ref said "like the French guy in the World Cup"

The irony is that Galthie looked at Jacques du Plessis as a future replacement for Vahaamahina (we are very light in terms of enforcer type lock). In any case he can’t qualify as played against France U20 for SA U20 (and both are their nations nominated 2nd team).

Irish Londoner wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:As I walked out the house sales try was disallowed despite the conversion already taken. Has the rule changes on that? Cant find that it has on the wr website.

Halftime discussion seemed to suggest that there has been an instruction from WR that a try can be reviewed during and after the conversion.

They changed the rule a while back to say something like the conversion will only count if the referee has awarded the try - which presumably if they are still reviewing it mean that the conversion doesn't lock the try in place. IRRC some teams knowing that a try was "iffy" were taking quick conversions so the try would stand.

I believe the review only started after the conversion was taken, but tbh Sale had so many chances to get the TBP they should be looking only at themselves.

whocares wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Three red cards this weekend. The ones I seen were justified. The one against Scarlets' Fijian lock seemed soft but it was a clear red to the letter of the law. There was contact with the eye by the French hooker on Curry. No sure why Jacques Du Plessis got one.

Elbow to Grobler's face. Ref said "like the French guy in the World Cup"

The irony is that Galthie looked at Jacques du Plessis as a future replacement for Vahaamahina (we are very light in terms of enforcer type lock). In any case he can’t qualify as played against France U20 for SA U20 (and both are their nations nominated 2nd team).

He’s been in Montpellier a while now, I wondered why he wasn’t capped. I had no idea SA u20s did this. Do France still do it? Because I’m sure Tommy Reffell has played against France u20...

Wales A team - the team that will never actually play - is Wales' 2nd team to stop U20s being tied to Wales. Has to be both U20s teams as nominated second team.

When is a player ‘captured’ by a country?

Captured is the term used when a player becomes tied to one country and can no longer represent another nation on the international stage. This happens when a player plays for one of three teams:

1) The senior 15-a-side national representative team of a union. This is quite simple and basically means playing in a Test match, eg England v Ireland in the Six Nations.

2) The next senior 15-a-side national representative team of a union. This is where it gets slightly complicated as each union may have a different idea of what to nominate as their second team. It could be an A team, like England Saxons, but it’s up to each union to decide which team they want to designate as their ‘next senior’ side. In the past some unions have nominated their U20 side, but since the start of 2018 they are no longer able to do that.
3) The senior national representative sevens team of a union where the player is aged 20 or older or, if at an Olympics or Sevens World Cup, the player has reached the age of majority (18).

https://www.world.rugby/regulations/next-senior-representative-team

I think teams like SA and Fiji could benefit from that rule U20 capture rule being brought back. Looks like Reffell will be playing for England after all!

Teams from that year (a lot went on to pro rugby);
South Africa Under-20: Cheslin Kolbe (DHL Western Province), Luther Obi (Platinum Leopard), Dries Swanepoel (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Handré Pollard (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Seabelo Senatla (SARU contracted), Robert du Preez (The Sharks), Stefan Ungerer (The Sharks), Ruan Steenkamp (captain, Vodacom Blue Bulls), Jacques du Plessis (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Roelof Smit (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Dennis Visser (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Irné Herbst (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Luan de Bruin (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Jacques du Toit (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Andrew Beerwinkel (Vodacom Blue Bulls).

Replacements: Michael Willemse (DHL Western Province), St Sithole (DHL Western Province), Aidon Davis (EP Kings), Kwagga Smith (MTN Golden Lions), Percy Williams (MTN Golden Lions), Justin Geduld (SARU contracted), Jesse Kriel (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Marné Coetzee (The Sharks).

Wales Under-20: Jordan Williams (Scarlets / Llanelli); Ashley Evans (Ospreys/ Bridgend), Steffan Hughes (Scarlets / Llanelli), Jack Dixon (Dragons), Hallam Amos (Dragons/ Newport); Sam Davies (Ospreys / Swansea), Rhodri Williams (Scarlets/ Llandovery); Gareth Thomas (Scarlets/ Carmarthen Quins), Ethan Lewis (Blues / Cardiff), Nicky Thomas (Ospreys / Swansea), Jack Jones (Ospreys / Rovigo), Rhodri Hughes (Ospreys/ Swansea), Sion Bennett (Scarlets/ Carmarthen), Ellis Jenkins (capt, Blues / Cardiff), Ieuan Jones (Dragons/ Newport).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons / Bedwas), Thomas Davies (Blues /Cardiff), Dan Suter (Ospreys/ Bridgend), James Benjamin (Dragons / Bedwas), Daniel Thomas (Scarlets/ Llanelli), Joshua Davies (Dragons / Bedwas), Aaron Warren (Llandovery), Thomas Pascoe (Blues / Pontypridd).

mikey_dragon wrote:I think teams like SA and Fiji could benefit from that rule U20 capture rule being brought back. Looks like Reffell will be playing for England after all!

Nah, he is very Welsh, with no interest in England.

Anyway, red card aside Tevita Ratuva looks like a quality signing. Lousi incoming too and Ball to come back. What sort of ban does Ratuva get, 6 weeks? 10 weeks for the gouger and elbower.

mikey_dragon wrote:Anyway, red card aside Tevita Ratuva looks like a quality signing. Lousi incoming too and Ball to come back. What sort of ban does Ratuva get, 6 weeks? 10 weeks for the gouger and elbower.

From the World Rugby regulations, for "Intentional contact with the eyes" (for there can surely be no argument that it was intentional):

Low-end: 12 weeks
Mid-range: 18 weeks
Top-end: 24+ weeks
Max sanction: 208 weeks (4 years)

So 10 weeks is looking unlikely. For the du Plessis elbow:

Low-end: 2 weeks
Mid-range: 6 weeks
Top-end: 10+ weeks
Max sanction: 52 weeks

So it could be anything. What did Vahaamahina get?

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think teams like SA and Fiji could benefit from that rule U20 capture rule being brought back. Looks like Reffell will be playing for England after all!

Nah, he is very Welsh, with no interest in England.

Another quality openside to throw into the Wales conundrum!

Vahaamahina got 10 weeks reduced to 6.

I thought it was 10 for Vahaamahina but wasn't actually sure about the sanction for gouging, seems about right.

bluestonevedder wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think teams like SA and Fiji could benefit from that rule U20 capture rule being brought back. Looks like Reffell will be playing for England after all!

Nah, he is very Welsh, with no interest in England.

Another quality openside to throw into the Wales conundrum!

We could probably do with a No.8 in the Zach Mercer mould, but don't seem to be producing one yet.

mikey_dragon wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think teams like SA and Fiji could benefit from that rule U20 capture rule being brought back. Looks like Reffell will be playing for England after all!

Nah, he is very Welsh, with no interest in England.

Another quality openside to throw into the Wales conundrum!

We could probably do with a No.8 in the Zach Mercer mould, but don't seem to be producing one yet.

Sam Moore at Sale is highly rated and has a lot of players ahead of him their back row. I do wonder if he will move onto a region.

Oh yeah I remember Eddie Jones talking about him. How welsh is he? I also think a region could benefit from having each of Sales welsh props on their books, both strong guys with some good experience.

mikey_dragon wrote:Oh yeah I remember Eddie Jones talking about him. How welsh is he? I also think a region could benefit from having each of Sales welsh props on their books, both strong guys with some good experience.

Willgriff John is a heck of a player. I think Wales would do well to cap him. Surely a nice backup to Francis?

bluestonevedder wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Oh yeah I remember Eddie Jones talking about him. How welsh is he? I also think a region could benefit from having each of Sales welsh props on their books, both strong guys with some good experience.

Willgriff John is a heck of a player. I think Wales would do well to cap him. Surely a nice backup to Francis?

I thought he was LH. He used to play for Cardiff, and he was alright. He's probably improved in the premiership because Cardiff haven't been doing well since Dai Young moved on.

LondonTiger wrote:When is a player ‘captured’ by a country?

Captured is the term used when a player becomes tied to one country and can no longer represent another nation on the international stage. This happens when a player plays for one of three teams:

1) The senior 15-a-side national representative team of a union. This is quite simple and basically means playing in a Test match, eg England v Ireland in the Six Nations.

2) The next senior 15-a-side national representative team of a union. This is where it gets slightly complicated as each union may have a different idea of what to nominate as their second team. It could be an A team, like England Saxons, but it’s up to each union to decide which team they want to designate as their ‘next senior’ side. In the past some unions have nominated their U20 side, but since the start of 2018 they are no longer able to do that.
3) The senior national representative sevens team of a union where the player is aged 20 or older or, if at an Olympics or Sevens World Cup, the player has reached the age of majority (18).

https://www.world.rugby/regulations/next-senior-representative-team

Even the term 'captured' is a misrepresentation as it implies that the captive might stand a chance at some stage of release. Nations who have already more players than they could ever play on a regular basis continue to hand out single caps to stop those players ever playing for anyone else, and World Rugby rubber stamp that. If that isn't bad enough World Rugby extend 'capture' to include nominated and Sevens teams, so every player is committed for life when sent on for the last minute of what may be a meaningless game.

It should only be Test caps that confirm and tie a player to the nation he represents.