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Champions Cup - Double Headers

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 06 Dec 2019, 12:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pool 1
Northampton & Leinster
Lyon & Benetton

Pool 2
Exeter & Sale
Glasgow & La Rochelle

Pool 3
Ulster & Quins
Clermont & Bath

Pool 4
Racing & Ospreys
Munster & Saracens

Pool 5
Toulouse & Montpelier
Connacht & Gloucester

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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 10:55 am

So stop being successful so the French and English don't cry?

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 10:57 am

carpet baboon wrote:So stop being successful so the French and English don't cry?

Is that the best you can do? Success isn't the issue.

Personal Insult Removed


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Modding)

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:07 am

Khouli Khan,

As a New User could I please point you towards the site rules. https://www.606v2.com/t1019-site-rules

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:12 am

LondonTiger wrote:Khouli Khan,

As a New User could I please point you towards the site rules. https://www.606v2.com/t1019-site-rules

I note however, that pathetic sarcasm is allowed picard

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 12:13 pm

Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but without it we would be witless.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 12:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but without it we would be witless.

I've noticed that some are half way there.....

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 2:49 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:The introduction of two South African clubs saw led the Pro 14 into a conference-style system, two divisions of seven where the top three clubs in each automatically qualify for Europe. It’s a distorted method. Lets look at a single example.

Cardiff secured Champions Cup qualification for this season despite finishing fourth in Conference A, third place South African side Cheetahs ineligible to qualify for Europe. Was it fair that Cardiff went through automatically when their 54 points tally was eclipsed by Ulster on 62 points and Treviso on 55 in the fourth and fifth Conference B places?

I think you're confused. Cardiff are not in the champions cup this season, hapless Ospreys are. You're thinking of the season ending in 2018 so nearly two seasons ago now, but it's also worth pointing out that Cardiff won the Challenge Cup that year. I'm not sure if this still gives you qualification for the Champs cup(?) but surely it made them worthy. I see what you mean though and this presents a bit of an issue.

I guess we're trialling the South Africans. They did propose leaving Super Rugby quite a while ago. We're the only league that can trial them for now and it remains to be seen whether they all follow. We'll just have to get over it for now.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 2:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:The introduction of two South African clubs saw led the Pro 14 into a conference-style system, two divisions of seven where the top three clubs in each automatically qualify for Europe. It’s a distorted method. Lets look at a single example.

Cardiff secured Champions Cup qualification for this season despite finishing fourth in Conference A, third place South African side Cheetahs ineligible to qualify for Europe. Was it fair that Cardiff went through automatically when their 54 points tally was eclipsed by Ulster on 62 points and Treviso on 55 in the fourth and fifth Conference B places?

I think you're confused. Cardiff are not in the champions cup this season, hapless Ospreys are. You're thinking of the season ending in 2018 so nearly two seasons ago now, but it's also worth pointing out that Cardiff won the Challenge Cup that year. I'm not sure if this still gives you qualification for the Champs cup(?) but surely it made them worthy. I see what you mean though and this presents a bit of an issue.

I guess we're trialling the South Africans. They did propose leaving Super Rugby quite a while ago. We're the only league that can trial them for now and it remains to be seen whether they all follow. We'll just have to get over it for now.

It was a previous season yes - but nothing has changed.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 3:10 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:The introduction of two South African clubs saw led the Pro 14 into a conference-style system, two divisions of seven where the top three clubs in each automatically qualify for Europe. It’s a distorted method. Lets look at a single example.

Cardiff secured Champions Cup qualification for this season despite finishing fourth in Conference A, third place South African side Cheetahs ineligible to qualify for Europe. Was it fair that Cardiff went through automatically when their 54 points tally was eclipsed by Ulster on 62 points and Treviso on 55 in the fourth and fifth Conference B places?

I think you're confused. Cardiff are not in the champions cup this season, hapless Ospreys are. You're thinking of the season ending in 2018 so nearly two seasons ago now, but it's also worth pointing out that Cardiff won the Challenge Cup that year. I'm not sure if this still gives you qualification for the Champs cup(?) but surely it made them worthy. I see what you mean though and this presents a bit of an issue.

I guess we're trialling the South Africans. They did propose leaving Super Rugby quite a while ago. We're the only league that can trial them for now and it remains to be seen whether they all follow. We'll just have to get over it for now.

It was a previous season yes - but nothing has changed.

A combined PRO14 ladder could be used to determine the top 6/7 but given the alternating home and aways, they agreed to do it this way.
And it likely won't change until
a) the new arrangements for European comps are put in place and there is agreement to bring in SARU to the EPCR.
b) If/when the comp moves to 16 teams, then a more equitable method may be found.
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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 3:11 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So stop being successful so the French and English don't cry?

Is that the best you can do? Success isn't the issue.

Personal Insult Removed

Ahhh I missed the insult.

But that is what you said. That the French and English got upset with the habitual winning from Ireland so threw the toys out of the pram and demanded changes, and they will do it again as people other than them are successful. ( Do you work for the PRL?)

Also you said the Irish have massive wage budgets compared to the English, that has been debunked several times on this site.

So again it comes back to the simple fact that with similar budgets (and way smaller resources) the Irish seem to do better than the english and the English don't like it.

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Post by Brendan on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 9:09 pm

The thing overlook in the complaining is that Leinster and Sarries have great second teams because they get so much exposure.  There is an art to having a strong squad which isn't learned easily outside of the Pro14.

Most teams in France believe rotation involves having a home team and an away team.  They rotate but develop as two different teams and a split squad.

English teams seem to be like the French when it comes to rotation.  Cockers was the main reason for that B team going to Munster and he did it to other places such s the kings.  Those poor rotations cost Edinburgh to burn out their first team (even though the Pro14 is meant to be so easy) from all the games and they lost games because they didn't integrate their squad.  As a Tigers coach you would think he would have known how to do it, but he was poor at using a squad

Rennie with all his Super Rugby experience tanked his first season in the Pro14 because he didn't know how squads work and killed his team two months before the season ended.

These poor players in the Irish squads are u20s players and purposely brought in overseas players.  The 2nd string hooker from Leinster that devalues the league by his presence has just got called up to the Irish squad dumping his "better teammate" out.  Then you have players like Burns, Adison and Haley.  Nothing amazing in England for the main but given the right support have become very good.

Ireland have a decent u20 team that produces 30 players a year.  These players know they either need to up their standards and break into the provincial squad or a hungry talented younger player will take your spot and you will be gone.  These players get about 5 games in a season to sink or swim.  They swim they get more games.  Knowing this they push standards and all the standards go up.

In France half the squad don't care because they know they will only play in hostile away games set up to fail, can't see that driving standards.

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Post by Engine#4 on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 9:40 pm

No Pro14 team outspends the highest 'official' wage bills in the GP, including Leinster. Where English clubs tend to suffer is that their talent is spread around more clubs. They also aren't subject to the same overseas player restrictions as some Pro14 clubs.

I'm surprised KK was mistaken for a Corbynite earlier. I would have thought that the kind of rich man victim complex and sense of entitlement on display here and amongst the GP owners is more typical of a right wing conservative.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 10:57 am

Engine#4 wrote:No Pro14 team outspends the highest 'official' wage bills in the GP, including Leinster. Where English clubs tend to suffer is that their talent is spread around more clubs. They also aren't subject to the same overseas player restrictions as some Pro14 clubs.

With the central contracts not comparing like for like. The spread of international talent amongst more clubs does "weaken" the English sides, but then the history of English sides in Europe generally suggests that at anyone time the performances will be dominated by very few sides. Leicester, Wasps & Saracens were during their Euro pomp some way ahead of the rest of the English clubs usually.


In other news Louis Picamoles suffered a season ending injury at the weekend.

Saints have had 3 players cited for dangerous tackles - Bean, Symons and Proctor - with the hearing today.

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