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Hoskins Sotutu eligible for England

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 02 Jul 2020, 1:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

England coach Eddie Jones is reportedly keen on swooping in on Hoskins Sotutu, one of Super Rugby Aotearoa's breakout stars, after the Blues No 8 revealed he qualifies to play for England via his mother.

Sotutu – who also qualifies for Fiji through his father, former Fiji and Blues player Waisake Sotutu – has been groomed as a future All Blacks star after a series of dominant performances in the Blues' unbeaten start to the season.

New Fiji coach Vern Cotter is reportedly hopeful of luring Sotutu but now England have come knocking as well, according to The Telegraph.

Born and raised in New Zealand, the 21-year-old Sotutu admits he will probably have to make a decision about his future soon.

"Whatever is next will come," Sotutu told the Herald last week. "I've got my dad's Fijian heritage and that Kiwi side and my mum is English as well so I can qualify for an English passport.

"When the decision comes it will come easy but for the moment I'm just focusing on the Blues.

"I'm still learning. I'm taking this as my debut season and trying to find my feet and keep working on my craft."

To qualify for England, Sotutu would have to move to the Premiership, where there are several clubs interested in his services, reports The Telegraph.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12344853

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Jul 2020, 8:59 am

Poaching to me implies that the players have no say in it. As long as teams are playing to the rules it's fine. As sharkey says every team has taken advantage of the rules perhaps with the exception of argentina and lets face it the only reason is lackmofnsrawing power of migrants. Losing players you like sucks but it's the fault of the (home for want of a better word.) Unions not capping players early enough when they know of multiple qualifications or risk they'll move abroad.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 21 Jul 2020, 1:24 pm

I think guys like Francis and Tompkins were ‘poached’ by Wales - their choices of course, we didn’t force them.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 21 Jul 2020, 1:55 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I think guys like Francis and Tompkins were ‘poached’ by Wales - their choices of course, we didn’t force them.

They had to be eligible under current regs and that they were. Short career and all that.

Its all ancient history but I have no idea how anyone thought the grannygate selections were a good idea from a regulatory point of view though.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 24 Jul 2020, 3:13 pm

ebop wrote:It’s difficult to reconcile the concept that a ‘Pacific Islander’ can represent a team in the northern hemisphere given none of those countries openly accept Pacific Island people into their countries. Basically, northern hemisphere countries  ‘buy’ people to play rugby on their behalf.
That is not true though. Here in the UK the new post Brexit immigration rules will allow any person over a salary threshold to come and work in the UK. There is no discrimination against PI countries.

In the case in point the player has an English parent so he could claim UK citizenship and come to the UK in any event.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 28 Aug 2020, 9:51 am

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-plans-18841504

Cant see this happening either given the amount of genuine options Jones has. Another agent looking for a move?

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Post by Welly on Fri 28 Aug 2020, 10:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-plans-18841504

Cant see this happening either given the amount  of genuine options Jones has. Another agent looking for a move?

Nah Daily Mail (Who broke the story) have a massive in with England camp, it's clear that Eddie or someone who is very much close to that circle leaks info to Foy.
Look back at Eddies time with England and all his picks etc and say you can't see Eddie doing something like this?

That being said picked for training camp doesn't mean capped ala Gary Graham.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8671677/amp/Shock-England-call-store-former-Wales-20-captain-Reffell-Leicester-rookie-Martin.html?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting that George Martin is also named.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 28 Aug 2020, 10:50 am

Very few rumours re Jones in comparison to Lancasters england where leaks very often turned out to be bang on the money. Hey could be right I wouldn't have said Ludlam stood a chance before he was suddenly there.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 28 Aug 2020, 1:58 pm

Is Reffell qualified via residency? Poor kid can't get in anyone's international team at the moment with the depth at 7. Ideally Cardiff Blues should be looking to offload Ollie Robinson and an English team pick up, he's a quality player. But even then Cardiff wouldn't require a replacement as they have Jenkins, Navidi and Boyde - and now Moore, Lewis-Hughes and Botham jnr whom are all impressive flankers. Even Ospreys have unearthed another good flanker in Morris. Scarlets could bring him in I guess as Reffell is probably better than Dan Davis, whilst Cubby Davies is more of a luxury player rather than a grafter.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 10:50 am

Dear lord...this better be a load of agent tosh to get a better deal.

If he is genuinely looking elsewhere for 7's when we have back row options Curry x 2, Underhill, Wilson, Ludlum, Earl, Willis, etc etc...then i give up with Eddie!!

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 3:50 pm

Welly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-plans-18841504

Cant see this happening either given the amount  of genuine options Jones has. Another agent looking for a move?

Nah Daily Mail (Who broke the story) have a massive in with England camp, it's clear that Eddie or someone who is very much close to that circle leaks info to Foy.
Look back at Eddies time with England and all his picks etc and say you can't see Eddie doing something like this?

That being said picked for training camp doesn't mean capped ala Gary Graham.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8671677/amp/Shock-England-call-store-former-Wales-20-captain-Reffell-Leicester-rookie-Martin.html?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting that George Martin is also named.

Seeing that Reffell has played for the Wales U20's would mean he is now tied to Wales. So unless anything has changed, this is a non starter.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 4:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Welly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-plans-18841504

Cant see this happening either given the amount  of genuine options Jones has. Another agent looking for a move?

Nah Daily Mail (Who broke the story) have a massive in with England camp, it's clear that Eddie or someone who is very much close to that circle leaks info to Foy.
Look back at Eddies time with England and all his picks etc and say you can't see Eddie doing something like this?

That being said picked for training camp doesn't mean capped ala Gary Graham.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8671677/amp/Shock-England-call-store-former-Wales-20-captain-Reffell-Leicester-rookie-Martin.html?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting that George Martin is also named.

Seeing that Reffell has played for the Wales U20's would mean he is now tied to Wales. So unless anything has changed, this is a non starter.

Irrespective of whether he's eligible or not I'd be gobsmacked if he changed allegiance. He captained Wales under 20s for two seasons and seems a very proud Welshman in the interviews he's done at Tigers. The media guy at Tigers has already scoffed at the suggestion of him accepting the call up on Twitter.

He looks a very good openside that is getting compared to Warburton a fair bit. At 21 he looks to be the first choice openside at Tigers under Borthwick and has played well since the restart if you like your openside to make lots of tackles and  attack the breakdown effectively.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 4:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Welly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-plans-18841504

Cant see this happening either given the amount  of genuine options Jones has. Another agent looking for a move?

Nah Daily Mail (Who broke the story) have a massive in with England camp, it's clear that Eddie or someone who is very much close to that circle leaks info to Foy.
Look back at Eddies time with England and all his picks etc and say you can't see Eddie doing something like this?

That being said picked for training camp doesn't mean capped ala Gary Graham.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8671677/amp/Shock-England-call-store-former-Wales-20-captain-Reffell-Leicester-rookie-Martin.html?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting that George Martin is also named.

Seeing that Reffell has played for the Wales U20's would mean he is now tied to Wales. So unless anything has changed, this is a non starter.

Things have changed (about 3 years ago) and U20s can no longer be used as the 2nd Team. However as Sam says I struggle to see Reffell changing his allegiance.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 4:28 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Welly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-plans-18841504

Cant see this happening either given the amount  of genuine options Jones has. Another agent looking for a move?

Nah Daily Mail (Who broke the story) have a massive in with England camp, it's clear that Eddie or someone who is very much close to that circle leaks info to Foy.
Look back at Eddies time with England and all his picks etc and say you can't see Eddie doing something like this?

That being said picked for training camp doesn't mean capped ala Gary Graham.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8671677/amp/Shock-England-call-store-former-Wales-20-captain-Reffell-Leicester-rookie-Martin.html?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting that George Martin is also named.

Seeing that Reffell has played for the Wales U20's would mean he is now tied to Wales. So unless anything has changed, this is a non starter.

Things have changed (about 3 years ago) and U20s can no longer be used as the 2nd Team. However as Sam says I struggle to see Reffell changing his allegiance.

I do not think that is accurate. As long as he plays against another nation that recognises their U20's as their second team, he is tied. So if he has played France, or Italy, then he is tied, England, Ireland do not use their U20's as their second side, so the games against them do not tie him down.

I might be wrong though. OK

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 4:38 pm

You are wrong because they changed it over 3 years ago. Nobody can designate their U20's as their 2nd team.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 5:32 pm

Yeah since 2018. More reason to get the a teams playing again!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 8:45 pm

Wales No.7 options in england; Thomas Young, Tommy Reffell, Sam Lewis, Dan Thomas. All decent options but you’d say Young is by far the best right? And he’s currently excluded. 

Options in Wales; Justin Tipuric (academy graduates Morgan Strong, Morgan Morris), Josh Navidi, Josh McCleod, James Davies, Ellis Jenkins, Will Boyde, James Botham, Ollie Griffiths, Aaron Wainwright, Taine Basham. 
We have that many that most teams will field 2 with another on the bench. 

A lot of them already capped whilst the rest look capable, but will have to wait to be given their shot to see if they can cut it. Most if not all of them will probably cut it. 

If I’m honest I don’t see Davies as a long term option for Wales at 7, whilst Cardiff need to send Olly Robinson back to England. That leaves us scope to bring back Thomas Young first. Reffell is fresh out of U20s and making a name for himself in the premiership, let him continue to grow. If england offer a cap and he accepts well good luck to him as we owe you one or two anyway.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 9:05 am

I would say Young is the best Welsh openside option in the Prem Mikey. I am surprised he isn't included in the Wales squad more often given he'd be perfect for the type of game plan Pivac wants to put into place. I'd say he's better than all those bar Tipuric and probably of a similar level but very different style to Navidi. Isn't Wainwright a blindside?

I was surprised when Young came out and said no Welsh region had offered him a contract before he re-signed with Wasps. I thought he'd have fit in particularly well at Scarlets or at Blues where a flanker combo of Navidi and Young would have been particularly effective.

Agree on Reffell the WRU don't need to be desperately bringing him home he's developing very well where he is. First team game time in the Premiership at 21 is good for his experience. England have a fair few flank options as well so he's going to have his work cut out if he changes allegiance.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 9:36 am

Wainwright is a 7 who can play 6 and I think he's featured at 8 too. 6 & 7 are quite interchangeable depending on your front 5 and game plan I suppose. Pretty much all the players I listed started as open-sides and have moved across.

Young is a good player but the rules say he's excluded... If Blues do as I say and have Navidi focus on 8 then he could fit there, and he could probably fit in at Scarlets or Ospreys somewhere if they offload/demote a back-rower (Dan Davies and Olly Cracknell). In Davies' absence Scarlets moved Josh McLeod to 7 (formerly an 8) and he's been one of the best open-sides in the Pro14. Another interchangeable option who deserves a look-in at some point.

Navidi and Tips are getting older now so we might seem them transition out of the international arena over the next few years who knows. Again that would leave us scope to get Young back, but I think he isn't that much younger than them.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 11:02 am

Are you happy with Navidi at 8..? Or is it another Curry experiement which im not overly happy with?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 6:23 pm

For Wales I'd be happy with Navidi at 6, 7 or 8. Navidi is good at the breakdown, very strong and physical in the contact area / collisions - so sort of an experiment that worked. He started out at 7, played 6 occasionally. It took a lot longer than it should have for him to get recognition. We certainly missed his physicality at the breakdown during the 6N. I think Blues will mostly play him at 6 or 8. Wales don't have enough No.8's to challenge for the jersey in Faletau's absence, but whenever Navidi has played there for Wales he got MOTM...

Both Curry's look like they can play across the back-row well too.

A current like-for-like with Young is probably Ellis Jenkins, who is still recovering from ACL surgery but close to a return.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 03 Sep 2020, 10:17 am

Given how Wales like to play under Pivac I'd have thought turnover ball would be key. 

Something like;

6. Moriarty
7. Tipuric/Young
8. Navidi

Or 

6. Navidi
7. Tipuric/Young
8. Falatau

Would work well for Wales. Navidi and another openside is far more difficult to play against.

Curry at 8 I think would work better if Ted Hill or Jack Willis were at 6. Two bigger blindsides would take the weight of the carrying off of his shoulders. Hill would offer much of the benefits of Jones usual inclination to shoe horn a lock in at 6 whilst still being a mobile blindside. Willis more of an openside compete for everything. Really Curry is just keeping the 8 shirt warm until Vunipola is fit again though his lengthening list of injuries must be a concern.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 03 Sep 2020, 7:57 pm

Both would be good back-rows Sam. Interestingly, you and I might be on the same page in thinking Wales’ best back-row doesn’t include Tipuric. Great player but I’ve never been entirely convinced by him. 

When we beat Aus at the world cup we won the back-row battle, and theres was pretty good. Our lineup was 6. Wainwright 7. Tipuric 8. Navidi. I don’t think we have the front 5 for that sort of luxury yet though. Need to get the big men in and have them play more minutes together as a unit. I guess we don’t have enough quality 6 and 8 options yet. Shingler’s days look spent, sadly.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 2:02 pm

Moriarty is a much better number 8 than Navidi whose control at the base of the scrum leaves a lot to be desired. Navidi is a good flanker who can fill in at number 8 but Moriarty is the preferred player there.

It's hard to really tell how good Young is. I do think playing in England helps him in some ways. The Pro14 looks second rate in comparison to the Premiership these days and lots of good club players don't look good enough to make the step up whereas playing in England is a good physical test.

I also get the feeling that Ellis Jenkins might not be making it back as a long term option at international level. He seems too injury prone. Number 8 is a problem position in world rugby and Wales are no different we could do with trying to convert Wainwright in to an 8 given our depth on the flanks.

England have incredible depth in the back row and when Curry eventually starts breaking down through injuries or changes his style to avoid getting injured they have plenty of replacements ready waiting in the wings. I don't think they need to go to NZ to find another option this all seems like paper talk but then the money the RFU offers is significantly better than NZRU.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 5:10 pm

miaow picard

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 5:21 pm

Sotutu has signed the contract he was after by the way.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 6:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sotutu has signed the contract he was after by the way. 

That’s old news no isn’t it? The best ones get snapped up by NZ. The rest elsewhere.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 7:05 pm

Didnt sound like rugby racing and beer knew. And no I wouldn't say that New Zealand are really leading the race in back row forwards at the moment.
May be misreading what you're saying though?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 7:22 pm

I think NZ back-row depth is quite phenomenal, that’s based on me watching Aotearoa though. 

What I was actually saying is all the best dual qualified players in NZ usually go on to play for the ABs (Reece, Piatau are more recent examples but there are lots more over the years). Whatever’s left goes to Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, and sometimes England or France.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 7:46 pm

Oh. Perhaps. Early developers generally get capped early over their peers, certainly true everywhere. As I've expressed england are bloody useless at tying dual qualified players.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 10:59 am

Sotutu has been named in the All Blacks squad.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 2:05 am

Yep, 7 new players including Sotutu:

All Blacks squad:

Hookers: Asafo Aumua, Dane Coles, Codie Taylor. Props: Alex Hodgman, Nepo Laulala, Tyrel Lomax, Joe Moody, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Ofa Tuungafasi. Locks: Quinten Strange, Patrick Tuipulotu, Tupou Vaa’i, Sam Whitelock. Loose forwards: Sam Cane (captain), Shannon Frizell, Cullen Grace, Akira Ioane, Dalton Papalii, Ardie Savea, Hoskins Sotutu. Halfbacks: TJ Perenara, Aaron Smith, Brad Weber. First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett, Richie Mo’unga. Midfielders: Braydon Ennor, Jack Goodhue, Rieko Ioane, Anton Lienert-Brown. Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, George Bridge, Caleb Clarke, Will Jordan, Damian McKenzie, Sevu Reece.

Really good North South match on the weekend, North went down to the wire 38-35 with Jordan plucking a Mo'unga cross kick for the win. Five converted tries each plus the south penalty. Did like Reiko at center, could be there for a while if he keeps that sort of form up, much more presence and more explosive than ALB or Goodhue. Jordan's another in a long line of young Crusader backs on a seemingly never ending processing line.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 9:33 am

Tasty squad, I'll never write off the ABs again.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 4:33 pm

There's a lot of pressure on Sam Cane already. Could he end up being another Reuben Thorne?

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