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Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:18 pm


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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:21 pm

Farrell red-carded against Wasps. He lunged at a player from behind, grabbing him around the neck, just as he changed direction, so it looked like a clotheslining.

There was no need for a video review, it was just a bad tackle all round. He'll get banned, so the length is down to how much mitigation he'll get. Can't see him being available for Leinster in two weeks, though. Mid-level high tackle offence in six weeks, and the best you are likely to get that down to is three weeks.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:22 pm

How are we meant to watch the entire Saracens vs Wasps game? The show hasn’t long started and we’re over 70mins in....

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:How are we meant to watch the entire Saracens vs Wasps game? The show hasn’t long started and we’re over 70mins in....

It was on BT Sport Extra

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:24 pm

I thought Farrell came from behind but I misjudged the angle. Video clip in Andy Goode's tweet.

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10/status/1302231977987313664

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:27 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Farrell red-carded against Wasps. He lunged at a player from behind, grabbing him around the neck, just as he changed direction, so it looked like a clotheslining.

There was no need for a video review, it was just a bad tackle all round. He'll get banned, so the length is down to how much mitigation he'll get. Can't see him being available for Leinster in two weeks, though. Mid-level high tackle offence in six weeks, and the best you are likely to get that down to is three weeks.

It was a pretty horrible challenge, though reckless not deliberate.

Good response by Farrell, though. He fully accepted he was in the wrong, pretty much told the ref to send him off and seemed to be genuinely concerned for his young opponent.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:28 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I thought Farrell came from behind but I misjudged the angle. Video clip in Andy Goode's tweet.

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10/status/1302231977987313664

With the player jinking sideways it could easily be viewed as coming from behind.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:30 pm

Red card thoroughly deflated Saracens. All the fight they had shown since the restart deserted them.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:30 pm

Most blatant red card offence I’ve seen, and we say that too often about Farrell. Enjoy your ban Faz, it’s long overdue!

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:39 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Most blatant red card offence I’ve seen, and we say that too often about Farrell. Enjoy your ban Faz, it’s long overdue!

Arguably George North's from a week or so ago was just as blatant. (Similarly North was also more concerned for his opponent than the impending card)

It should also be noted that previous Farrell incidents have not been cited, so while with his technique this was always an outcome that was expected would happen eventually, the authorities have not felt any previous challenge was worthy of sending off.

He will now miss the Leinster game.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:47 pm

Given how well Manu Vunipola has been playing will they miss him that much?

Really stupid from Farrell, really poor tackle technique. Maybe this will act as a wake up call and make him change his ways.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:49 pm

Change his ways how? Previous whinges have been about him not using his arms!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Most blatant red card offence I’ve seen, and we say that too often about Farrell. Enjoy your ban Faz, it’s long overdue!

Arguably George North's from a week or so ago was just as blatant. (Similarly North was also more concerned for his opponent than the impending card)

It should also be noted that previous Farrell incidents have not been cited,  so while with his technique this was always an outcome that was expected would happen eventually, the authorities have not felt any previous challenge was worthy of sending off.

He will now miss the Leinster game. 

Yeah and I think question most were asking is why wasn’t Farrell even cited? Not the first time the citing panel has made a mockery of the game though. The smirk on his face after the SA and Aus games where he did it is a stark contrast to him caring about player welfare, so maybe he’s learnt. A shame he hasn’t learned much more about legal tackling though.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 2:54 pm

Anyway based on recent form I would pen in Francis and Rowlands as Wales starters. The options don’t look good enough yet. Beard looks like a semi-pro right now and Davies looks uninterested in playing. Rowlands on the other hand is a big guy and a good all-rounder, so he offers a little more than Jake Ball. We need a big front 5 if we are to continue with our open-side dominant back-row. Anyone disagree with Francis and Rowlands stepping up?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 3:06 pm

Farrell does bring out the worst in opposition fans.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 3:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell does bring out the worst in opposition fans.

How so?

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 3:25 pm

The QB throw was never straight!
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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 3:33 pm

This is where Quin's come back, too many changes.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 4:05 pm

The top 8 looks about right. Wonder if Sale will break into the play-offs? 5 very good teams.

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Post by king_carlos on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 4:23 pm

After a dire 50 minutes Tigers have somehow got 10 points out of nowhere to make things seem closer.

Hanro Liebenberg has been really good for Tigers. Most others haven't...

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Post by king_carlos on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 4:28 pm

Taufua and Lavanini giving away silly penalties to cull that momentum.

This has been a poor game for a lot of Tigers bigger names.

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Post by king_carlos on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 4:39 pm

Harry Wells to Jono Ross, "Jono mate you can count to six right"

Laugh

A diplomatic way of dealing with play being delayed at the lineout.

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Post by TJ on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 5:09 pm

It should also be noted that previous Farrell incidents have not been cited, so while with his technique this was always an outcome that was expected would happen eventually, the authorities have not felt any previous challenge was worthy of sending off

Wrong. World rugby used the video of one of the shoulder to head ""tackles" he did as an example of where a red card should be given

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 5:56 pm

LRZ gets another.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 6:58 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell does bring out the worst in opposition fans.

How so?

It generally gets people so het up that people turn a debate on whether something should be a pen to years later should it be a red card. Not sure what it is.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 6:59 pm

TJ wrote:
It should also be noted that previous Farrell incidents have not been cited, so while with his technique this was always an outcome that was expected would happen eventually, the authorities have not felt any previous challenge was worthy of sending off

Wrong. World rugby used the video of one of the shoulder to head ""tackles" he did as an example of where a red card should be given

Which one?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 7:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell does bring out the worst in opposition fans.

How so?

It generally gets people so het up that people turn a debate on whether something should be a pen to years later should it be a red card. Not sure what it is.

I don’t have anything against Farrell, I’ve been touting him to be a Lions starter for months... Class player. But all which I’ve alluded too were red card offences. Not attractive to see Englanders brush it off and rush to his defence every time it happens, it might be better to just admit it and move on.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 7:54 pm

Cool mikey which specific incidents should have been red cards in your opinion. I dont remember any myself.

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Post by TJ on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:26 pm

Take your pick certanly some yellows and a couple of reds amongst them
https://youtu.be/zgwgZV_9488

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gDtmZEpJxA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1Hi5-0yxfo

Loads more if you want them - shoulder charges, cheap shots, punches etc. all there for those of us with two eyes

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:09 pm

Can't see any punches from Farrell. Little bit of forearm on Harrison but to be fair Harrison laid quite a bit on him in the dodgy clear out first.

Couple of shoulders without the arms but the actual tackles in those videos were all fine other than one was late. Problem with Farrell for a while has been that he tackles like he's playing League. He's very upright and shoulder first, terrible technique because it puts your head in a position where you can quite easily get knocked out. Dangerous to you and the person you're tackling. Was only a matter of time before Farrell's poor technique got him into trouble and there's no way he's going to get a small ban for that tackle it'll be at least two weeks (after taking into account priors and him pleading guilty and bringing some nice biscuits for the committee) meaning he'll miss at least three game.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 4:18 am

This is Farrell's first red, and he isn't going to challenge the decision, so he warrants as much mitigation as anyone in a similar situation. However, I was struck by this in the Telegraph.

The fact that this was the first time that Farrell has received a red card might work in his favour when the length of a ban is decided upon. He could miss Saracens’ Champions Cup quarter-final against Leinster in two weeks. But a judiciary panel might want to make an example of him due to his history of high challenges.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/09/05/owen-farrell-forgiven-red-card-high-tackle-oncharlie-atkinson/

It would be out of order for a disciplinary panel to make an example of a player for tackles which received no punishment at the time. Farrell has certainly made a series of poor tackles but none of them went unreviewed. It's not up to a disciplinary panel to try and balance the books in that way.

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Post by TJ on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 5:49 am

problem is they did not get punished as they should have. Its not on the WR site now but one where he received no sanction was actually used as an example of a tackle that should get a red card.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 6:16 am

TJ wrote:problem is they did not get punished as they should have.  Its not on the WR site now but one where he received no sanction was actually used as an example of a tackle that should get a red card.  

No, it wasn't. The tackle by Farrell on Andre Esterhuizen was one World Rugby said would warrant a yellow card, not a red. The video was also used to illustrate new directives by the governing body, so they specifically said that was the kind of tackle that ought to yield a yellow card, not that it should have been given as yellow in the game itself.

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Post by Old Man on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 6:55 am

I am surprised this is Farrell’s first red card.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 7:15 am

I mean those examples are laughable tj if you think they're near red cards. 2 of them got press are the time as the refs didnt think they were penalties! Snyman of course did get away with a red in the same match for that should to kruis' head. Barely mentioned now if ever (basically just by me!).

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 8:37 am

Rugby Fan wrote:This is Farrell's first red, and he isn't going to challenge the decision, so he warrants as much mitigation as anyone in a similar situation. However, I was struck by this in the Telegraph.

The fact that this was the first time that Farrell has received a red card might work in his favour when the length of a ban is decided upon. He could miss Saracens’ Champions Cup quarter-final against Leinster in two weeks. But a judiciary panel might want to make an example of him due to his history of high challenges.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/09/05/owen-farrell-forgiven-red-card-high-tackle-oncharlie-atkinson/

It would be out of order for a disciplinary panel to make an example of a player for tackles which received no punishment at the time. Farrell has certainly made a series of poor tackles but none of them went unreviewed. It's not up to a disciplinary panel to try and balance the books in that way.

Absolutely agree with that. You can't retrospectively decide to punish Farrell because you think he got away with a couple of 50/50 challenges previously. His disciplinary record is clean so he should get the same allowances as others.

I'd imagine he'll get six weeks, less a week for admitting guilt and then halved for no priors. Two weeks, missing three games including Leinster.

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Post by TJ on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 9:09 pm

Of course his previous should not be taken into account with this Obviously manifestly unfair

However there are many more examples of him doing this and getting away with it which is what I alluded to and anyone who thinks a late hit shoulder to head is not worth a red card is deluded and has no understanding of the laws.

The number of shoulder charges he has got away with many to the head is incredible.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 10:01 pm

That's the thing I think he's managed by more luck than anything else to miss the head of those he's shoulder charged previously. There's been several where he was very close and all were reviewed and he got away by the skin of his teeth. This time it was a wild tackle and no amount of luck was going to get him out of trouble.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 10:28 pm

Is Farrell still available for Lions duty though? Very Happy A lot more calls for Rees-Zammit to be capped as of late, from both Wales and England supporters. I can’t argue with that, I think he deserves his shot, especially with at least two of the Welsh Regions playing like turd right now.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 4:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's the thing I think he's managed by more luck than anything else to miss the head of those he's shoulder charged previously. There's been several where he was very close and all were reviewed and he got away by the skin of his teeth. This time it was a wild tackle and no amount of luck was going to get him out of trouble.
That's how I see it too. One disappointing aspect of this incident, is that Farrell did seem to work on his technique, and stopped sailing close to the wind. All eyes were on him at the World Cup, especially with the new directives, and he didn't come close to a dangerous tackle.

For all the talk of Farrell being serial offender, this is actually rare offence for him. When he does tackle with poor technique, it usually translates into a high-hitting shoulder charge. By contrast, this was a lunge with outstretched arms. The real risk now for Farrell is not his past record, which should be a point in his favour, it's the fact his tackle was bad, which may well make the starting point ban longer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 6:58 am

TJ wrote:Of course his previous should not be taken into account with this Obviously manifestly unfair

However there are many more examples of him doing this and getting away with it which is what I alluded to and anyone who thinks a late hit shoulder to head is not worth a red card is deluded and has no understanding of the laws.

The number of shoulder charges he has got away with many to the head is incredible.

I mean you haven't as yet provided any examples.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 11:24 am

One of the main reasons as an England fan that I want Farrell to change his tackle technique is to improve his tackle completion. He 'misses' a lot of tackles by making a big initial hit but failing to bring the man to ground. In the Sarries defensive system that is built to make that work it is very effective but in the England set-up when Faz is defending from 12 I think it's sometimes more hit and miss - pardon the pun!

When Sarries come back up to the Premiership without Barritt in their ranks I'll be interested to see if their defensive systems change at all. Barritt being able to keep up that very aggressive line speed whilst having an excellent tackle percentage is integral to the Sarries defence. It will be interesting to see if it adapts at all with Tompkins and Lozowski (once back from their loans) likely to be the first choice centre pairing.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 11:59 am

Tompkins only has one more year on his contract with Sarries after he comes back from the loan. Will we not see him head back to Wales again? Given how quickly Manu Vunipola is progressing might we see Farrell play 12 for club and country with Vunipola at 10 and Lozowski at 13. Be a more skillful and creative midfield for Sarries though they've always had some skill in with their bosh.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 12:54 pm

TJ wrote:Of course his previous should not be taken into account with this  Obviously manifestly unfair

However there are many more examples of him doing this and getting away with it which is what I alluded to and anyone who thinks a late hit shoulder to head is not worth a red card is deluded and has no understanding of the laws.

The number of shoulder charges he has got away with many to the head is incredible.

You are stating that the World Rugby Citing Officers have no understanding of the laws?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 1:50 pm

Also I thought Baldwin looked good playing behind the Exeter pack. The chiefs don’t seem to have many flashy names in their lineup but they’re such a good team. Baldwin made a good choice in going to them, and I think he is EQ... 

Will O’Flaherty also be on Jones’ radar? Looks like a position of great strength for England.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 2:20 pm

I imagine thorley is the next out the rank. Of course theres nowell watson may and cokanasiga should he ever return as well. And daly.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 2:31 pm

If there were a 'bolter' on the wing going into the next RWC that hasn't got England game time yet I'd expect it to be someone who offers the lightning pace that Jones usually favours on the wings. Some like Thorley or Adam Radwan at Falcons for instance. Similar sort of ridiculous pace and footwork to LZR that can offer a threat that's near impossible to defend against if they get space.

Nowell being the slowest wing that Jones has used is quite ridiculous when you think about it! May, Watson, Daly and Cokanasiga are all really quick. McConnochie, Solomona and Ashton as fringe players are all also rapid.

The kick chase game which has become integral to England's game is also heavily reliant on that pace out wide.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 3:00 pm

Forgot about McConnochie as well. Thought he was a bit average when he was brought into Jones' setup but he's been up there since the return from lockdown.

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Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2 Empty Re: Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 5:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Forgot about McConnochie as well. Thought he was a bit average when he was brought into Jones' setup but he's been up there since the return from lockdown.

Yeah seems to be scoring tries for fun. Got a bit of height to him and he's good under the high ball so works well with England's kick chase game. Could be brought back in.

formerly known as Sam

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Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2 Empty Re: Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2

Post by TJ on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 8:49 pm

Open your other eye 7.5

Several clear examples of shoulder to head hits.

TJ

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Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2 Empty Re: Gallagher Premiership 2019/20 pt 2

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