England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

First winter tour for England confirmed today: three T20s and three ODIs in South Africa from the 27th November-9th December.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/54537709

A possible limited-overs tour of Pakistan, which would be England's first trip to that country since 2005, as well as visits to Sri Lanka and India may also go ahead in early 2021.

king_carlos wrote:

3.Bairstow
4.Root
5.Stokes
6.Pope
7.Foakes

If Bairstow converts that start tomorrow, Pope is fully fit and Buttler is indeed rested then I reckon that would be the coaches first choice 3-7 for India. On paper that's a good looking middle order on turning wickets as well.

Lawrence potentially has 4 innings ahead of him to make a case of course but I think you are right about the opening situation, it will probably be 2 from 3 between Sibley, Burns and Crawley in February.

I think Bairstow can get away with playing 3 at a push in Sri Lanka but in India where whilst spin is still key he'll be facing a much better pace attack especially Bumrah.

Well that was an excellent day for England , despite losing both openers early. (And I'm not going to be too hard on them : practically no warm up preparation, no cricket for ages and unfamiliar conditions. They'll want to do better next time , of course ; but I'm not axing them just yet

Fine (and Galle record) partnership from the two Yorkies Careful , but still looking to score when able...word that comes to mind is sensible batting. And I'd say the most comfortable looking Joe Root I've seen for a while. Has just about drawn England level and set up nicely for tomorrow...

Will watch extended highlights...seemingly impregnable position for Eng
BUT potentials risks for Eng include

1-Eng can collapse tomm, limiting the lead and advantage
2- Lanka can have a good second inning......and even if they match Eng's first inning with their second...Eng is left to chase 135
3- Eng bat 4th and Chasing 135 could also be tricky...anything above 150 certainly would be on a Lankan pitch

How is the pitch? Is it spitting and bouncing already?
Hard to form an impression only from CI commentary

alfie wrote:Well that was an excellent day for England , despite losing both openers early. (And I'm not going to be too hard on them : practically no warm up preparation, no cricket for ages and unfamiliar conditions. They'll want to do better next time , of course ; but I'm not axing them just yet

Fine (and Galle record) partnership from the two Yorkies  Careful , but still looking to score when able...word that comes to mind is sensible batting. And I'd say the most comfortable looking Joe Root I've seen for a while.  Has just about drawn England level and set up nicely for tomorrow...

Would just say, I am definitely not writing off the openers or Burns! do hope Sibley in particular watched how Root goes about playing spin, like you said it is sensible batting, whilst being proactive. Now obviously Root has always been comfortable against spin (one of the rare England players who was from a young age), but the little release shots for a single or two he has will be something hopefully Sibley can develop as the series and winter goes on. Do think he could do with developing a sweep shot, it's tough to play spin in the subcontinent without one, and with his height you'd think he might be a decent sweeper

Soul Requiem wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

3.Bairstow
4.Root
5.Stokes
6.Pope
7.Foakes

If Bairstow converts that start tomorrow, Pope is fully fit and Buttler is indeed rested then I reckon that would be the coaches first choice 3-7 for India. On paper that's a good looking middle order on turning wickets as well.

Lawrence potentially has 4 innings ahead of him to make a case of course but I think you are right about the opening situation, it will probably be 2 from 3 between Sibley, Burns and Crawley in February.

I think Bairstow can get away with playing 3 at a push in Sri Lanka but in India where whilst spin is still key he'll be facing a much better pace attack especially Bumrah.

Bumrah is brilliant but interestingly has yet to play a Test match in India. It will be fascinating getting to see him bowl in home conditions for the first time.

How the India pacers recover from various injuries, and fatigue in Bumrah's case, will be crucial. Shami presumably will still be out due to the fractured arm. Yadav hasn't bowled since his calf injury. Sharma returned to T20 bowling this month but an abdominal tear is tough for a pace bowler and takes time to get back to full fitness from similar to side strain. Bumrah just looks a bit over bowled in Shami, Yadav and Sharma's absence.

Jadeja likely wont recover from a broken thumb in time either. So sadly it looks likely to be a heavily impacted bowling unit still.

Bairstow isn't perfect but as a good player of spin I'd probably pick him at 3 in India ahead of the extra opener. If Lawrence scores runs and Pope is 100% fit then options increase a bit more.

I'm tentative about expecting Pope to be fit for the first test though. It's a recurrence of that shoulder injury so wouldn't be surprised if the coaches are very careful. If he is 100% the coaches will want his quality but we might see both Bairstow and Lawrence retain places in the middle order if he isn't quite there.

Bairstows now averaging 46 batting at number 3 (caveats about the opposition). If he continues to perform on this tour its hard to sustain an argument against him getting the spot in India (he did pretty well out there batting mid order last tour). My eyebrows raised as much as everyone else's when he was selected for this tour and figured it was purely down to the injuries but he is making a strong case so far. That said he could've been out twice in one ball early on and theres still opportunities for him to fail again.

The plus for Burns is that he's a left hander and breaks things up. If he does lose his place he only has himself to blame for spending lockdown getting frisky rather than having a massage to relieve his stiffness.

India's injury woes are a big plus for England, although it looks pretty likely that Bumrah and Ashwin will be fine for the first test unless they aggravate injuries playing in the last test.

With the players unavailable and rested I actually thought Bairstow was the natural next cab of the rank in many ways, albeit due to lack of standout options.

The more obvious options from the Bob Willis Trophy would have been recalls for Malan or Duckett who did less with their briefer Test chances. I think Bairstow is the better player in these conditions.

Going way back to 2019 for a full CC season and another tried and discarded player from England's top order in Ballance was a high scorer. Sam Northeast also scored a lot of runs that season, I rate him highly but he's never really been looked at by the selectors.

Whilst Bairstow's Test record is far from great it's not terrible either. My main worry with Bairstow at 3 is that he'd need to improve out of sight against pace to be an option for there for the Ashes down under. There are Tests to be won before then though.

My worry with Bairstow at three is knowing the selectors will think doing ok on the subcontinent will translate to doing ok down under too, I do like picking a team based on conditions rather than just the so called best 11 every time. For instance I wouldn't be against seeing Malan selected in Australia because he does play pace well.

Yeah ...getting ahead of ourselves a bit assuming Bairstow will play in India and do wel. But if he does in theory he should be getting rotated out during at least one series in the summer (do we know who's visiting yet? New Zealand?  I forget). Id guess that would be Popes opportunity to make a case for himself at 3. Malans an outside chance of a test recall due to his age and being focused on whiteball.

As Goose says there is a long way to go until the Oz tour. Even if Bairstow converts this start, then performs in India he'd have to perform well against seamers in English conditions over the summer to be in the frame for the Ashes.

One's thing for sure and that's if Bairstow and/or Lawrence can get runs in these two Tests then the batting will be in much better shape than it has been for a while.

3 openers capable of mixing it at Test level have shown up at various times and Pope looks set for a long Test career. If two more middle order bats in Bairstow and Lawrence score runs the batting will be looking a lot better both short and long term.

alfie wrote:Well that was an excellent day for England , despite losing both openers early. (And I'm not going to be too hard on them : practically no warm up preparation, no cricket for ages and unfamiliar conditions. They'll want to do better next time , of course ; but I'm not axing them just yet

Fine (and Galle record) partnership from the two Yorkies  Careful , but still looking to score when able...word that comes to mind is sensible batting. And I'd say the most comfortable looking Joe Root I've seen for a while.  Has just about drawn England level and set up nicely for tomorrow...

Yes, an excellent day for England. And a dreadful day for Sri Lanka. Whilst we haven't won this Test yet, the hosts have gone a long way to losing it.

Six of their top 8 getting to double figures but no one reaching even 30 having won the toss and batted. That only points one way.

guildfordbat wrote:

Yes, an excellent day for England. And a dreadful day for Sri Lanka. Whilst we haven't won this Test yet, the hosts have gone a long way to losing it.

Six of their top 8 getting to double figures but no one reaching even 30 having won the toss and batted. That only points one way.

England to collapse and be out by lunch?

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Yes, an excellent day for England. And a dreadful day for Sri Lanka. Whilst we haven't won this Test yet, the hosts have gone a long way to losing it.

Six of their top 8 getting to double figures but no one reaching even 30 having won the toss and batted. That only points one way.

England to collapse and be out by lunch?

Goose - you thought any more about Carlos' suggestion of being a motivational speaker?

Gooseberry wrote:Bess with the worst 5 wicket haul in test cricket ... lets see how farcical Englands innings can be!

That was my particular favourite from earlier. I wonder if Bess will write that on the ball to help remember his feat in a few decades time?

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Bess with the worst 5 wicket haul in test cricket ... lets see how farcical Englands innings can be!

That was my particular favourite from earlier. I wonder if Bess will write that on the ball to help remember his feat in a few decades time?

Pretentious thought for the day.

Is it better to be a great wicket taker or a taker of great wickets?

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Bess with the worst 5 wicket haul in test cricket ... lets see how farcical Englands innings can be!

That was my particular favourite from earlier. I wonder if Bess will write that on the ball to help remember his feat in a few decades time?

Pundits were saying the same, he bowled terribly. I'm sure he wont have read this and be overly hurt by it.

Broad and Leach bowled well. Bairstow had a shaky start but settled down to bat well. Root batted perfectly for the situation and conditions. Aside from that England have relied on Sri Lanka being dire and a touch of luck to get into this position rather than being a brilliant cricket team suddenly. This is still largely the same group that managed to lose at home to the west indies recently, and they were an umpires call and some horrible fielding off being 3 down for under 20 with a debutant coming to the crease. Having seen India and Australia contrive to butcher winning positions (indeed Sri Lanka managed it in their first test against SA to a lesser extent too) in recent weeks and Englands record for complete batting implosions in recent years I'm allowing myself a mixture of scepticism and joking deprecation of the team.

I understand theres many on the forum who are utterly wedded to Dom Bess being the greatest spinner England have had since the last one who was any good, but he did bowl terribly. To be fair Moeen made a solid career out of doing that for a few years so its not that stinging a critique. In the words of Don Bess himself "I didn't feel like I bowled very well"

KP_fan wrote:Will watch extended highlights...seemingly impregnable position for Eng
BUT potentials risks for Eng include

1-Eng can collapse tomm, limiting the lead and advantage
2- Lanka can have a good second inning......and even if they match Eng's first inning with their second...Eng is left to chase 135
3- Eng bat 4th and Chasing 135 could also be tricky...anything above 150 certainly would be on a Lankan pitch

How is the pitch? Is it spitting and bouncing already?
Hard to form an impression only from CI commentary

It's pretty similar to the pitch here last tour I think - plenty of turn already, but it definitely isn't spitting yet. I'd say a par 1st innings score would've been about 250 considering the very slow outfield (a lot of would be boundaries turned into 2s because of that), obviously Sri Lanka way below that...and Root/Bairstow showed that it wasn't playing that badly if you played sensibly.

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Bess with the worst 5 wicket haul in test cricket ... lets see how farcical Englands innings can be!

That was my particular favourite from earlier. I wonder if Bess will write that on the ball to help remember his feat in a few decades time?

Pretentious thought for the day.

Is it better to be a great wicket taker or a taker of great wickets?

It's always been a good question. The greats of course do both.

The two who immediately spring to mind for me were prevented from being great wicket takers by injury. Simon Jones and Ryan Harris. Both careers mired by injury but they took some beauties. Jones bowling Clarke when he shouldered arms is one the great wickets and Ryno knocking back Cooks off stump with the first ball is a brilliant delivery.

More fans will probably remember that ball from Jones than Matthew Hoggard's reliable opening spells over many years for instance.

Devon Malcolm's most brutal spells will probably be remembered longer than Dominic Cork who took 3 more wickets at a substantially better record.

It's one of the great idiosyncrasies of Test cricket that matches can be affected so much by contributions from players who barely feature in a highlights reel. Jack Russell batting for 4 and a half hours in Joburg whilst Donald peppered Atherton for instance.

Gooseberry wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Bess with the worst 5 wicket haul in test cricket ... lets see how farcical Englands innings can be!

That was my particular favourite from earlier. I wonder if Bess will write that on the ball to help remember his feat in a few decades time?

Pundits were saying the same, he bowled terribly. I'm sure he wont have read this and be overly hurt by it.

Broad and Leach bowled well. Bairstow had a shaky start but settled down to bat well. Root batted perfectly for the situation and conditions. Aside from that England have relied on Sri Lanka being dire and a touch of luck to get into this position rather than being a brilliant cricket team suddenly. This is still largely the same group that managed to lose at home to the west indies recently, and they were an umpires call and some horrible fielding off being 3 down for under 20 with a debutant coming to the crease. Having seen India and Australia contrive to butcher winning positions (indeed Sri Lanka managed it in their first test against SA to a lesser extent too) in recent weeks and Englands record for complete batting implosions in recent years I'm allowing myself a mixture of scepticism and joking deprecation of the team.

I understand theres many on the forum who are utterly wedded to Dom Bess being the greatest spinner England have had since the last one who was any good, but he did bowl terribly. To be fair Moeen made a solid career out of doing that for a few years so its not that stinging a critique.  In the words of Don Bess himself "I didn't feel like I bowled very well"

I don't think anyone on here suggested that Bess bowled well. It's a dominant position but one England can definitely fluff.

I didn't mean any offence by it Goose. Your commitment to pessimism in the face of success just amuses me is all. Our resident Blackadder to offset all the Lt George's and my Baldrick. It's one of the comforting constant that make the cricket boards fun. We could probably write a 606 ten commandments.

- No Gods for Olly other than Chris Woakes
- Carlos shalt tediously obsess about with wicket-keepers rather than keeper-batsman
- Goose shalt only rate a maximum of 2% of all professional cricketers
- Guidlford shall bear witness for Surrey standouts
- Soul shalt not commit adultery with white ball cricket whilst married to thy red ball
- Honour your Jimmy and Broad

You can take it to the absolute extreme and consider Warne and Murali too. Warne produced deliveries that were other worldly while Murali got the bulk of his through consistency drawing the batsmen into errors. Anderson's in dipping yorkers like the Brathwaite one? are more highlight reel ready than Mcgraths metronomic line and length.

Excellent partnership from Root and Bairstow, following the example set by Mathews and Chandimal earlier in the day. But whereas Mathews and Chandimal threw their wickets away, the two Yorkshireman applied themselves and put England in a position of real strength. Only way England lose from here is a sudden and stunning collapse.

Watched the highlights of the Sri Lankan innings to see if they were as dreadful as I remembered, or if I had dreamt it all...nope, they were absolutely amateur with the bat.

Soul Requiem wrote:You can take it to the absolute extreme and consider Warne and Murali too. Warne produced deliveries that were other worldly while Murali got the bulk of his through consistency drawing the batsmen into errors. Anderson's in dipping yorkers like the Brathwaite one? are more highlight reel ready than Mcgraths metronomic line and length.

Murali produced some absolute pearlers but I do get what you mean there, Soul. The fact I can say the Gatting ball and the Strauss ball, most cricket fans will know exactly which ones probably sums up the absurd spin Warne put on the ball at times.

Murali's 5-fer and 10-fer stats are ridiculous with how good he was in home conditions. He took five wickets in an innings 67 times (45 in Sri Lanka) and ten wickets in a match 22 times (15 of them in Sri Lanka). Compared to Warne for instance who took 37 five wicket hauls and 10 ten wicket hauls. Murali's consistency in home conditions was lethal.

The interesting statistical anomaly for both of course being their poor performances in India. Their careers coincided with some of the all time great batsman in the India team though.

On McGrath, I was thinking of Stuart Clark in the not so eye catching but took regular wickets mould. McGrath was of course the master of that though.

Courtney Walsh was unbelievably consistent with his line and length but the big seam movement he could create at times definitely gave some eye catching wickets. His bouncer was lethal too.

"Courtney Walsh is making the ball talk, just not in David Boon's language", Tony Cozier after Walsh made David Boon play and miss a few times in a row.

Sorry have we now slipped to comparing Dom Bess to Warne Murali and McGrath?


He's better with the bat than any of them were.

Warney could swing a bat to be fair. If he hadn't been out of shape for much of his career he might have scored a few more. When the situation arose and his competitive edge made him apply himself he got Australia out of trouble a few times. I remember a few innings where he seemed to go for the big shot to avoid running another single though! 

Bess might not have bowled too well, but Sri Lanka are in trouble this series if Hasaranga is one of the best spinners they have. Embuldeniya looked a very tidy operator - but Hasaranga, whilst he turned it a bit, doesn’t seem to get any real drift or flight and just seems to be rolling some leggies out. It’s exactly how he looked to the SA series but did wonder whether it would different on spinning pitches but even with a bit of turn it hasn’t made much difference.

JDizzle wrote:Bess might not have bowled too well, but Sri Lanka are in trouble this series if Hasaranga is one of the best spinners they have. Embuldeniya looked a very tidy operator - but Hasaranga, whilst he turned it a bit, doesn’t seem to get any real drift or flight and just seems to be rolling some leggies out. It’s exactly how he looked to the SA series but did wonder whether it would different on spinning pitches but even with a bit of turn it hasn’t made much difference.

Hasaranga was bowling very flat and fast. At that pace and trajectory the ball's never going to drift and he will struggle if he offers no threat throw flight. Too easy to read where it's pitching and make a call on going forward or back. That said his doosra is tough to pick so I could see a batsman getting trapped LBW trying to play back to him.

It's a far cry from Herath leading the attack in home conditions though.

Dananjaya getting a ban due to his bowling action just as he was settling into Test cricket won't have helped. He's just been passed to bowl in international cricket again but with a remodeled action might be a different bowler.

I was hoping that Lakshan Sandakan would get a game. Left arm wrist spinners are a lot of fun to watch.

I saw the highlights and unfrotunately for the lankans they collpased WITHOUT the pitch misbehaving.

The pitch was slow and gripping .....but spinners on neither side got any alamrming spin & boucne...and that's a pitiful score...last 7 for 55 runs and last 4 for 9 runs.

Broad was curiously bowling slow cutters I felt..almost Klusener like.

Lankan spinners on display were generally side arm , fastish flat trajectory bowlers.....who will be hard to handle once the pitch starts crumbling.......now they weren't diffuclt.....now they were juts too flat & full.....and English batsmnet were sweeping on length

dunno where Lanka goes from here...other than a BIG defeat

king_carlos wrote:Warney could swing a bat to be fair. If he hadn't been out of shape for much of his career he might have scored a few more. When the situation arose and his competitive edge made him apply himself he got Australia out of trouble a few times. I remember a few innings where he seemed to go for the big shot to avoid running another single though! 

Try to say something nice about Bess and this is what happens....

Gooseberry wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Warney could swing a bat to be fair. If he hadn't been out of shape for much of his career he might have scored a few more. When the situation arose and his competitive edge made him apply himself he got Australia out of trouble a few times. I remember a few innings where he seemed to go for the big shot to avoid running another single though! 

Try to say something nice about Bess and this is what happens....

Most Test runs without a century I believe for Warne. I wonder how many wickets he'd exchange for DRS to be about when he was caught off a Vettori no ball on 99...

And as much as it's been discussed about Bess, and how he bowled mostly rubbish today, it is good to see two born and bred Ciderbad lads who grew up playing on spinning wickets where they got the opportunity to bowl a lot of overs be the two leading spinners for England in the sub continent. Though the Sri Lankans better watch out for ECB sanctions for a pitch that turned on Day 1.

I agree that Bess was extremely lucky to get five wickets ; and he said himself he didn't think he bowled all that well. But I think "terrible" is a little harsh as a description of his bowling.
Forgetting the wickets : he conceded just under three per over, compared with a three and a quarter economy rate by Leach. That doesn't exactly suggest he was bowling rubbish throughout.
My own view is that his bowling was what I'd call "ordinary". Couple of freak wickets ...and I suspect the one he got with a total long hop has left a somewhat exaggerated impression in people's minds ...if he had ended up with 2/30 his spell would almost have gone unnoticed ; paradoxically his success has actually meant he's been a little unfairly criticised

I am not hailing Bess as the New Swann , by the way. He has a lot to do if he's to become a long term player. But he's young , has a decent all round game , and seems to have a knack of picking up important wickets (the "lucky general" theory). As England generally prefer a reliable off spinner to support their pace attack rather than one of the more exotic types , I think he may have a future - if he manages to learn on the job.

Will be interested to see how he performs in the second innings , when I suspect Leach will play a big part...

Reckon Sri Lanka need a minimum of five wickets in this session to properly haul themselves back in. Even if England get a lead of 150, it won't be a completely done deal, as a competent Sri Lankan batting effort second time round could muster 300 in response, and set a tricky fourth innings chase for the visitors.

But if England bat at least 75 overs today they should be out of sight. Root and Bairstow showed the way yesterday, now they can do it again.

Though we won't be getting any cricket right away, with the unpredictable Sri Lankan weather unfurling a deluge on the ground.

Root survives on 'umpire's call' in the first over, but Bairstow falls in the next with Embuldeniya getting sharp turn. Similar manner to his nearly dismissal yesterday, only this time it was a good grab low down.

Another good session of cricket for England - 79-1 off 20 overs, saw off the threat after Bairstow’s wicket, and accelerated as the session went on

Hopefully Root can get a single quickly after lunch for a much deserved hundred, Lawrence on debut impressive. Looks very composed, and begun to open up his range of shots as the session went on.

Big chance to put this game totally out of reach this afternoon

Near-perfect session that for England. Lawrence makes an excellent start to his test career after coming out on top in an entertaining battle against Hasaranga. Root crosses 12,000 FC runs and is on 99* at lunch.

Sri Lanka just haven't been able to prevent England scoring - I think only one maiden in that 20-over session. No pressure being applied as a result.

It will take some heroic Sri Lankan batting and/or prolonged rain to prevent an England win from here.

Does Arthur not know the rules of the game? We don't play one hand one bounce mate

Root gets his ton - the first of many in a packed year?

Mickey Arthur bizarrely incensed about a DRS referral that didn't go Sri Lanka's way for obvious reasons. The relevant law:

33.2.2.2 a fielder catches the ball after it has been lawfully struck more than once by the striker, but only if it has not been grounded since it was first struck.  See Law 34 (Hit the ball twice).

Mickey Arthur rage ranting is worth the price of admission

Good day again for England so far. YJB couldn't get started again but Lawrence has looked good right from his first ball , and Root back with a hundred after a few failures to convert. Have to say the bowling apart from Embuldeniya hasn't been up to much today...England taking advantage - and a firm grip on this game.

Small margins in this game though : had Root been on the other side of the umpires call system first over of the day things might have been a bit different...

Embarrassing that an international coach doesn't know that if you hit the ball, it hits the ground, and then is caught, it isn't out. Is he aware of how if the ball doesn't bounce and goes over the rope, it's a six?

Maybe there's a reason Sri Lanka are a shambles

Pleased to see Root convert but do feel a tad sorry for Sri Lanka with the umpires call yesterday, were it against England i'd expect that to be given.

And a good debut fifty for Lawrence

Has looked assured from the start , and impressive in his intent to look for runs at all times. Helped that they served him up a few pies early on but he has been pretty fluent against all the bowling as this partnership has developed.

Another hundred partnership , the lead pushing 100 and they can really look to ensuring they don't need to bat twice.

50 for Lawrence too, this is turning into an absolute beasting

100 lead off a no ball from a leg spinner sums it up

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Embarrassing that an international coach doesn't know that if you hit the ball, it hits the ground, and then is caught, it isn't out. Is he aware of how if the ball doesn't bounce and goes over the rope, it's a six?

Maybe there's a reason Sri Lanka are a shambles

In fairness to Mickey , that isn't a situation that arises very often ! At first I thought he must have believed the ball came off Root's boot instead of the ground...but I think he might just be a bit frazzled after all the strange things that have happened already in this match - and all hurting his team.

I almost feel sorry for him... I can afford to be nice given the match situation

Root is a supreme batsman once he gets going, striking at 66 with only 11 boundaries sums him up as a player really.

19 runs from 8000, less than 100 and finishing not out to get his average back up to 50 (might be a bit of a push!)


Surprisingly now the highest score by an England player in Sri Lanka


Lawrence out !

Buttler is not the guy the bowlers would want to see strolling out in these circumstances!

Anything less than 500 in the circumstances would be a failure of sorts, this team need to get in the habit of aiming big first innings.

End a fine first innings for Lawrence...a second good catch today for Mendis. New ball works for the spinner.

Won't be such fun batting last on this.