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WHS and all that jazz!

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Plunky
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WHS and all that jazz! Empty WHS and all that jazz!

Post by LadyPutt Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:03 am

You asked and I delivered. Here we can discuss all things World Handicap System. Like it or not, it comes into effect on Monday November 2nd so we’re going to have to get used to Handicap Index, Course Handicap, Playing Handicap, Slope Rating, Course Ratings and everything in between Smile
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:05 am

Apparently those in Englandshire may already be aware of their handicap.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:08 am

I haven't had anything from the club or Scottish golf.
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:11 am

What's everyone hoping for? Some may be expecting a reduction, others will be hoping for an increase.

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Post by BlueCoverman Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:16 am

My new Handicap Index is 6.7, my existing CONGU is 6.6

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Post by Davie Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:31 am

Though I'm no longer playing, I look forward to the contents of this thread to see how it works out. With a little luck the mods will also make this a sticky thread and get rid of the other deadwood stickies, some of which have been around seemingly forever

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Post by JAS Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:53 pm

super_realist wrote:Apparently those in Englandshire may already be aware of their handicap.

Yep we have, just got a link yesterday

“https://members.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/signup?fbclid=IwAR2PapVCIaBDTDL9rFUMchTrG8SX10fTxWX8PqoRLtxs-HRoyyrDpcTJhMc”

EGU administer it, you set up an account using your 10 digit CONGU ID. I’ve no idea if SGU are already there as well.

Meanwhile for me I’m 4.7 (although that’s only up to end of Sept) think I was 5.5 at that point. Apparently I got as low as 4.3 over the summer (I was 5.2 old) but last year at my worst I was 7.8 (7.4 old). Kind of tells me there’s going to be a wider dispersion with the new system.

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:42 pm

Looks like my handicap won't change a jot then.

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Post by I'm never wrong Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:54 pm

CONGU handicap 17.8 New handicap 17.9. We have the boards in the clubhouse and now on the 1st and 10th tees advising people the adjustments to make. It's just not telling people the formula, the actual numbers are displayed, so you don't have to work it out.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:47 pm

super_realist wrote:Looks like my handicap won't change a jot then.

Where did you find yours?
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:58 pm

I was surmising Mac based on posters handicap changes of 0.1, however I have just checked (download the app and add you CDH number) and my projected handicap is - 0.4, almost +1

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:59 pm

Where is you WHS handicap on the app?
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:04 pm

McLaren wrote:Where is you WHS handicap on the app?

Download the Scottish Golf App, add your CDH number and wait for it to update.
It seems to only have taken one course into account though and not all the comps I have played on other courses perhaps they all have to update for this to happen.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:53 pm

I went up :(

My own calculations made me think it would be the same or a little lower.  As far as I can tell days where css went up are not accounted for. So three or four of my better scores have gone from 2 or three over css (sss +2) to score differentials of over 4.

Anyway the result is up 1 to 5 (4.8).  Not been that high in years.
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:57 pm

Should be easy for you to come down again though Mac.

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Post by BlueCoverman Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:24 pm

Don't forget your new handicap index is not necessarily your playing handicap. You then apply it to the Course Handicap Table. 6.7 at my Essex club means my playing handicap off the yellow tees remains at 7, but increases to 8 when playing off the white tees. Still awaiting to hear from my club in Suffolk.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:35 pm

But as I suspected if they are not going to take into account the conditions on the day you might as well not turn up in the wind. If you care about your handicap anyway.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:38 pm

super_realist wrote:Should be easy for you to come down again though  Mac.

Hopefully the repeated efforts you will get next season mean this initial disappointment can be quickly rectified. Have to admit it was quite upsetting to see the rise.
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Post by I'm never wrong Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:52 pm

McLaren wrote:But as I suspected if they are not going to take into account the conditions on the day you might as well not turn up in the wind. If you care about your handicap anyway.

Why would you not Mac? Assuming enough people play to trigger the Conditions of Play adjustment, surely if the scores from everyone go up, it all balances out?

I would understand it if you usually played worse in bad conditions, but if you usually played better than others it might be worthwhile.
Unless I have misunderstood it.....

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:12 pm

INW

I seem to play better in worse conditions as 3 or 4 of my best 8 were on days when css was +2 on sss. But as I mentioned above this has not been taken into account. For all those rounds the WHS system has just used he course rating and the slope, with no acknowledgement they were seriously tough days. As far as I can tell your first WHS handicap will not have "conditions of play adjustments".
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:12 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:Should be easy for you to come down again though  Mac.

Hopefully the repeated efforts you will get next season mean this initial disappointment can be quickly rectified.  Have to admit it was quite upsetting to see the rise.

Bonus is that you can hand in a score any time you like by all accounts, so when the weather is good and you know youre playing well, hand in a score.
I wish I could have done that before in some bounce games as the atmosphere is much different than being drawn with some bumholes from the club.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:14 pm

super

True, I plan to start handing in 2 or 3 cards a week in the peak season.
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Post by I'm never wrong Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:16 pm

super_realist wrote:Bonus is that you can hand in a score any time you like by all accounts, so when the weather is good and you know youre playing well, hand in a score.
Don't know if it's the same for you Super, but at my club we have to say we are going to put a card in beforehand. So can't just do it after a good round. I understand what you mean if you are in a vein of good form.

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:23 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:Bonus is that you can hand in a score any time you like by all accounts, so when the weather is good and you know youre playing well, hand in a score.  
Don't know if it's the same for you Super, but at my club we have to say we are going to put a card in beforehand. So can't just do it after a good round. I understand what you mean if you are in a vein of good form.

Presuming you just log in on an app like Howdidido like we did during summer comps.
Understand that you can't just do after a good round. Think it's going to be a bit of a cheats charter though with gimmes and preferred lies going on in certain groups.

This could also impact on pace of play too, in a negative way.

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:25 pm

McLaren wrote:super

True, I plan to start handing in 2 or 3 cards a week in the peak season.

Not just peak season Mac, nice days when the rough is down in winter/spring are a great opportunity. TOC for example is perfect for scoring in the summer, even more so in winter.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:30 pm

Good point. Although cold and soggy conditions can hamper winter scoring for me. If you want to invite to TOC however, I am sure that is firm all year round.
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:33 pm

TOC is often in better condition in the winter Mac. It's always firm apart from a few areas plus all the penal rough (16 and 17) is either cut back or dead.
A nice windless day of 8c or whatever temp you sometimes get is perfect.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:43 pm

Super I am pretty flexible. Could probably swing most weekdays at the moment.
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Post by I'm never wrong Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:52 pm

super_realist wrote:Presuming you just log in on an app like Howdidido like we did during summer comps.
Yep. We can do it on our phones as well, plus we can enter results via a phone, which is better (in these Covid times) of queueing up at the two computer terminals we have.

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:59 pm

McLaren wrote:Super I am pretty flexible. Could probably swing most weekdays at the moment.

I suspect Herr Sturgeon is about to plunge us into the dark ages as she is so keen to prove she is Spinal Tap.

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Post by I'm never wrong Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:51 pm

Got someone to send me a picture of the handicap noticeboards at our club. CONGU handicap 17.8 Handicap index 17.9. Thus equates to 19 off yellow front tees, 20 off the white back tees for me.

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Post by LadyPutt Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:24 am

McLaren wrote:I haven't had anything from the club or Scottish golf.
Check the app. Your prediction is there but it is that, a prediction, not exactly what it is going to be.
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Post by McLaren Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:42 am

LadyPutt wrote:
McLaren wrote:I haven't had anything from the club or Scottish golf.
Check the app. Your prediction is there but it is that, a prediction, not exactly what it is going to be.

Yeh I am hoping that the "conditions of play" adjustments are still to be made. I have a few rounds where good scores compared to css have been ruined by the new score differential.  As I said in post above, as it stands I have gone up.
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Post by LadyPutt Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:24 am

super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:Bonus is that you can hand in a score any time you like by all accounts, so when the weather is good and you know youre playing well, hand in a score.  
Don't know if it's the same for you Super, but at my club we have to say we are going to put a card in beforehand. So can't just do it after a good round. I understand what you mean if you are in a vein of good form.

Presuming you just log in on an app like Howdidido like we did during summer comps.
Understand that you can't just do after a good round. Think it's going to be a bit of a cheats charter though with gimmes and preferred lies going on in certain groups.

This could also impact on pace of play too, in a negative way.
General Play Scores, formerly known as Supplementary scores, must still be pre-registered as before and certainly here in Scotland they can be done on the Scottish Golf App (and presumably on HDID but we are moving away from it at our club) and we will still have the book for members to sign who don’t use the App before they go out and we, the Handicap team, can enter their scores but the App is best. It was always a “cheats charter” before with no-one checking if there are gimmes or iffy drops so no change there! It’s down to the integrity of the individual.
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Post by McLaren Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:16 am

So what has changed regarding supplementary scores. Is it just that you can hand in as many as you want now?
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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:08 am

McLaren wrote:So what has changed regarding supplementary scores. Is it just that you can hand in as many as you want now?
At our club you always could hand in as many as you wanted. Find that vein of form Mac and go to town.

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Post by super_realist Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:17 pm

McLaren wrote:So what has changed regarding supplementary scores. Is it just that you can hand in as many as you want now?

I think it depends on your handicap and where you come from Mac, currently you cannot submit a supplementary score in Scotland under the SGU if if you are 2 or below and then it is at the discretion of your club on what days this is permitted if your handicap is higher.
It is not clear in the WHS whether club rules can get in the way of handing in a score whenever you like regardless of your handicap. For instance on a day that the club is currently running a competition.
The FAQ's for this implementation has been really poor.

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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:08 pm

super_realist wrote:The FAQ's for this implementation  has been really poor.
Must be down to local level Super. My club has been sending out regular emails explaining each facet. So far I have received 12 emails regarding WHS.

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Post by super_realist Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:12 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:The FAQ's for this implementation  has been really poor.
Must be down to local level Super. My club has been sending out regular emails explaining each facet. So far I have received 12 emails regarding WHS.

I'm referring to the WHS itself. They don't make many things clear as to whether clubs can dictate when you are able to hand in a car or whether there is a handicap limit on handing in scores. For me in Scotland this is the remit of the SGU and they haven't answered this.

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Post by LadyPutt Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:57 pm

super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:The FAQ's for this implementation  has been really poor.
Must be down to local level Super. My club has been sending out regular emails explaining each facet. So far I have received 12 emails regarding WHS.

I'm referring to the WHS itself. They don't make many things clear as to whether clubs can dictate when you are able to hand in a car or whether there is a handicap limit on handing in scores. For me in Scotland this is the remit of the SGU and they haven't answered this.
No restriction on General Play scores any more. Do as many as you like.
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Post by LadyPutt Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:00 pm

Scottish Golf seems to have got the predicted Handicap Indexes spectacularly wrong all round. Is it the same in the other Home nations or are we just unlucky!
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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:38 pm

LadyPutt wrote:Scottish Golf seems to have got the predicted Handicap Indexes spectacularly wrong all round. Is it the same in the other Home nations or are we just unlucky!
How do you mean LP? Are all the predicted handicaps way out of line?

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Post by super_realist Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:32 pm

LadyPutt wrote:
super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:The FAQ's for this implementation  has been really poor.
Must be down to local level Super. My club has been sending out regular emails explaining each facet. So far I have received 12 emails regarding WHS.

I'm referring to the WHS itself. They don't make many things clear as to whether clubs can dictate when you are able to hand in a car or whether there is a handicap limit on handing in scores. For me in Scotland this is the remit of the SGU and they haven't answered this.
No restriction on General Play scores any more. Do as many as you like.

My question was LP whether or not a club can supercede this rule and in effect apply a "local rule" for example stopping such rounds should a comp be running at the same time.
I presume as the scores are all handled by the WHS computer it shouldn't matter, but clubs, especially my St Andrews club have a habit of being cantankerous and belligerent, for example not allowing you to move a ball 6 inches in the bunker since rakes were removed for covid.


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Post by super_realist Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:36 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:
LadyPutt wrote:Scottish Golf seems to have got the predicted Handicap Indexes spectacularly wrong all round. Is it the same in the other Home nations or are we just unlucky!
How do you mean LP? Are all the predicted handicaps way out of line?

I'm unsure of this too. I know people who have gone up as well as down so not sure how it can be said it is innaccurate.
One thing I have noticed is that all of my 20 previous scores have the same slope value attached (125) when I know they should vary considerably as they are compiled on at least six different courses with 140 being the top end.

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Post by LadyPutt Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:40 pm

super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
LadyPutt wrote:Scottish Golf seems to have got the predicted Handicap Indexes spectacularly wrong all round. Is it the same in the other Home nations or are we just unlucky!
How do you mean LP? Are all the predicted handicaps way out of line?

I'm unsure of this too. I know people who have gone up as well as down so not sure how it can be said it is innaccurate.
One thing I have noticed is that all of my  20 previous scores have the same slope value attached (125) when I know they should vary considerably as they are compiled on at least six different courses with 140 being the top end.
I am reading, from other Handicap Secretaries, that wrong data has been applied, in some cases wrong courses used, Supplementary scores and some competition scores not included in the calculations, in our case the wrong Slope and Course rating.... I could go on! I am at the end of my tether steam
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Post by LadyPutt Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:46 pm

super_realist wrote:
LadyPutt wrote:
super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:The FAQ's for this implementation  has been really poor.
Must be down to local level Super. My club has been sending out regular emails explaining each facet. So far I have received 12 emails regarding WHS.

I'm referring to the WHS itself. They don't make many things clear as to whether clubs can dictate when you are able to hand in a car or whether there is a handicap limit on handing in scores. For me in Scotland this is the remit of the SGU and they haven't answered this.
No restriction on General Play scores any more. Do as many as you like.

My question was LP whether or not a club can supercede this rule and in effect apply a "local rule" for example stopping such rounds should a comp be running at the same time.
I presume as the scores are all handled by the WHS computer it shouldn't matter, but clubs, especially my St Andrews club have a habit of being cantankerous and belligerent, for example not allowing you to move a ball 6 inches in the bunker since rakes were removed for covid.
The new Rules of Handicapping now allow for unlimited General Play Scores regardless of handicap so if your club restricts that, they are acting contrary to the Rules. I don’t understand how you can be doing a General Play score at the same time as a competition? Surely it is one or the other? Moving a ball in the bunker is a temporary local rule brought in while rakes are not in use which they didn’t have to adopt, unfortunately.
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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:20 pm

LadyPutt wrote:I don’t understand how you can be doing a General Play score at the same time as a competition? Surely it is one or the other?
Correct me if I'm wrong Super, but I interpreted what you were saying as you were wanting to put in a General Play score on the same day and course as a competition was being played on, but the club wouldn't allow it because you weren't in the competition?

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Post by super_realist Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:07 am

I'm never wrong wrote:
LadyPutt wrote:I don’t understand how you can be doing a General Play score at the same time as a competition? Surely it is one or the other?
Correct me if I'm wrong Super, but I interpreted what you were saying as you were wanting to put in a General Play score on the same day and course as a competition was being played on, but the club wouldn't allow it because you weren't in the competition?

I'm saying that if the club is running a competition, but you want to play outwith the competition times, are the club at liberty to NOT permit such rounds to be played on competition days.
I could see that many people may use the opportunity to avoid drawn competitions but still play with their mates whilst still having a competitive round as being more appealling than being drawn with some of the people at the club. The club may feel that competitions are less well subscribed.

Basically, is the club allowed to restrict your ability to hand in a card whenever they like using the "local rule" option?

super_realist

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WHS and all that jazz! Empty Re: WHS and all that jazz!

Post by super_realist Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:09 am

LadyPutt wrote:
super_realist wrote:
LadyPutt wrote:
super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:The FAQ's for this implementation  has been really poor.
Must be down to local level Super. My club has been sending out regular emails explaining each facet. So far I have received 12 emails regarding WHS.

I'm referring to the WHS itself. They don't make many things clear as to whether clubs can dictate when you are able to hand in a car or whether there is a handicap limit on handing in scores. For me in Scotland this is the remit of the SGU and they haven't answered this.
No restriction on General Play scores any more. Do as many as you like.

My question was LP whether or not a club can supercede this rule and in effect apply a "local rule" for example stopping such rounds should a comp be running at the same time.
I presume as the scores are all handled by the WHS computer it shouldn't matter, but clubs, especially my St Andrews club have a habit of being cantankerous and belligerent, for example not allowing you to move a ball 6 inches in the bunker since rakes were removed for covid.
The new Rules of Handicapping now allow for unlimited General Play Scores regardless of handicap so if your club restricts that, they are acting contrary to the Rules. I don’t understand how you can be doing a General Play score at the same time as a competition? Surely it is one or the other? Moving a ball in the bunker is a temporary local rule brought in while rakes are not in use which they didn’t have to adopt, unfortunately.

THe rake rule is absurd, especially when all other clubs in St. Andrews, even the terminally backward R&A were allowing it.

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Post by LadyPutt Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:24 pm

Can we Sticky this?
LadyPutt
LadyPutt

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