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Ireland v Scotland Autumn nations Cup Saturday 5th December 2020

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Post by BigGee Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ireland v Scotland
Autumn Nations Cup 3rd/4th Playoff

Saturday 5th December 2020
Aviva Stadium
Dublin

KO 14.15
Live on Amazon Prime

Well the last weekend of the Autunm Nations Cup and this looks like the best looking of the fixtures now that the final has been largely devalued by the French being unable to put out their strongest side.

Neither Scotland nor Ireland have looked great this autumn, defensively solid, but pretty stodgy in attack. Both teams will be keen to end the competition on a higher note than they have shown so far. Scotland, having put the Welsh hoodoo to be finally this autumn, will be keen to do the same in Dublin, where they have not won for 10 years either.

Both sides are still fiddling around trying to find their best teams ands develop new styles of play. Ireland in particular seem to be struggling to evolve under Farrell's stewardship, while Townsend was left admitting after the France game where we struggled to score a try, that Scotland need to be more than a team that are hard to beat. That might have been necessary in the post WC period where we had to restore some cre4dibility as a team, but it will only get us so far. Maybe we will be a bit happier to cut loose a little this weekend, though it will be difficult without our 2 FHs.

I think we might see a scotland team something along these lines:

1. Keeble
2. Brown - Turners awful throwing against France may have cost him a starting spot
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gray J - solely because Cummings has played a lot of minutes
5. Skinner
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Fagerson M
9. Price
10. Weir
11. VDM
12. Taylor
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg

Sutherland - seems to be fit again
Turner - impact sub may be his status in life
Nel
Cummings
CDP
SHC - Horne just not played for a while
VDW
Jones H - I can only hope!


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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:38 pm

Duhan is just special

Doing it all himself. Why we don’t get the ball to him more is baffling
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Post by majesticimperialman Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:39 pm

Great try from Scotland, back in the game now.

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Post by RiscaGame Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:The background noise on the amazon coverage is really annoying too.
Pretty sure you can turn it off Risca. You certainly could for previous games anyway. I turned it off for one as hearing the players communicating is interesting. Got some wee ones watching today though so the acoustic camouflage is quite nice given several rugby players vocabulary!  Laugh

I have looked, but couldn’t find anything other than commentary or fake sound. Cheers though. Don’t blame you today then laughing

Should be an option on audio called stadium fx.

Yeah, I sussed it ta. I assumed that would mean you were selecting it. At least it’s sorted now Doh

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:41 pm

Update for jimbo

Scottish ruck outside the Irish 22. Ali price is nowhere to be seen. Duhan ambles up to the ruck and picks up the ball. Runs through rob herring, skins stockdale for pace and evades the cover of earls to score.

A typical opportunistic individual try


Last edited by tigertattie on Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by 123456789. Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:42 pm

Rather perversely I think the phases for the try showed the problem. Ireland didn't give away penalty advantages. Every time they've attacked we've given away stupid penalties on dead rucks.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:44 pm

Well to prove me completely wrong we’ve now woken up and found some momentum!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:45 pm

Followed immediately by giving away a penalty, obviously

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:46 pm

Normal service resumes with Ragnar deciding that sealing off is a fun thing to do
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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:47 pm

Absolutely nothing wrong by Ireland there.

Grasping at straws
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:49 pm

Absolutely brainless penalty, Brown’s hallmark at times. Stupid stupid stupid

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:49 pm

Now chuckles has decided to be a bonehead

All these penalties. Players need utterly beasted at training or fined. Simply stupid stupid penalties
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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:51 pm

Sexton: "I can play til I'm 38"

62 minutes into the match: breaks himself again.

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:52 pm

Is it a Glasgow thing this?

Ragnar. Brown. Price. Penalty magnets all half.

Woeful
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Post by 123456789. Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:52 pm

We are uniquely stupid in world rugby. Sealing off unnecessarily followed by a Fraser Brown attempt to be smart. Someone ought to tell him that he's too bloody fat to be subtle. It does seem that when we are on the attack the Irish are afforded a few more seconds on the ball than we are in defence. But that might be my own bias/ paranoia.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:55 pm

Sexton: "I can play til I'm 38"

62 minutes into the match: breaks himself again.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:56 pm

12 turnovers conceded to Ireland’s 2, story of the match there

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:56 pm

Our top two inches have been lacking today

As has our go forward ball

We have no fecking ball carriers other than Duhan who is a bloody winger.
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Post by majesticimperialman Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:57 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Sexton: "I can play til I'm 38"

62 minutes into the match: breaks himself again.

I personally thin Sexton playing till 38 is a simple pipe dream.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:00 pm

Ireland definitely are our bogeymen but it's just the same old story for Scotland. Bring in a new attack coach. Toonie needs to step back and just manage the team. We have about as much edge as a butter knife.
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:03 pm

POM having a moan about the fact he was clearly in touch Headscratch

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Post by RiscaGame Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:04 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:POM having a moan about the fact he was clearly in touch Headscratch

Didn’t get that either. Should’ve actually finished that, in my opinion anyway. Went too upright.


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Post by Collapse2005 Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:05 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:POM having a moan about the fact he was clearly in touch Headscratch

Ha he was convinced and it was a great effort to be fair

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:06 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:POM having a moan about the fact he was clearly in touch Headscratch

Was pretty close though.

He’s just upset because he was lording it at Duhan who just smiled back and went “naw bud, I got you out”

We need to put Duhan to work with many of the Scottish girls. They’d not complain I’m sure

#MoreDuhanPlease
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Post by TJ Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:07 pm

Penalties is what killed Scotland Gave Ireland field position far too often

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:08 pm

TJ wrote:Penalties is what killed Scotland Gave Ireland field position far too often

Just no composure either. It's like a deja vu from 2011.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:09 pm

If Ireland win this we will have finally caught up with Scotland in the overall head to head win loss ratio with 66 wins each.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:11 pm

Congrats Ireland, clearly deserved winners so much more accurate and direct. How are you feeling after that lads?

Scotland; so disappointing. The intent was there particularly in the first half, but the accuracy was shocking. Penalty count was out of control and just handed Ireland all the opportunities they needed,

TJ what did you make of VdW? Offered more than Weir has been for me, even with his nervy start and a few fumbles early on

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Post by tigertattie Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:12 pm

We lost because:

Too many penalties
Too few turnovers for us
Didn’t play the game in the right places
Total lack of gain line breaking
Lack of intelligence

Just an utterly limp wristed performance

Without Hamish, the inclusion of can’t carry fagerson was wasted. Blade was equally as ineffective going forward.

Take Duhan out and we’re toothless in attack.
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Post by TJ Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:17 pm


TJ what did you make of VdW? Offered more than Weir has been for me, even with his nervy start and a few fumbles early on

I don't think he offered more than Weir but the main issue with both is that there is little variation so easy to defend. Both are good club pros IMO.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:22 pm

Thought it was a real nice performance by Ireland, especially once they hit their stride. Nice way to end the year. Unfortunately, Scotland seemed just a hair off.

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Post by TJ Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:26 pm

Its the balance of the scotland team thats the issue IMO. We have the players but finding the right balance seems tricky. Our best backrowers are lightweight. We have a choice of defensive or attacking centres and seem unable to find the right combos in both areas.

Discipline is the other issue

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Post by Heuer27 Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:27 pm

Would like to see the second half stats. Scotland just didn’t have any possession that I remember.
I’m not a fan of the constant Irish whingeing at the ref but it’s something Scotland should have done more of because the officiating team missed loads including a blatant forward pass for the second Irish try.

Scotland need a better captain who can speak well to the ref and get them onside more.

Despite all of this , Scotland were dreadful in second half and did nowhere near enough to win that game.

That Irish team are not great and it is a bit sobering that Scotland were dispatched so easily

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Post by Heuer27 Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:30 pm

Can Sam skinner play 8?

He won’t get a look in at his own club but might be an option for the international team. A back row of Ritchie, Watson and Skinner looks better balanced.
None of the current options seem up to the mark.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:38 pm

Ireland deserved to win that. Choked the life out of Scotland after the 30th minute yellow card with only a brief Scotland fight back in the second

There were a couple of bounces of the ball that went Irelands way, however the penalties were maddening. Fraser Brown committed one of the most brainless ones and it is not the first time I think this Autumn he has been called for knocking out the chaser off the ball. Good player but not good enough to keep giving away two soft penalties a game.

Hogg had a terrible game. Some of it was Ireland getting the ball to stick in the grass off the kicks but his errors and execution cost us field position and put us under pressure several times resulting in Irish momentum.

I thought the subs would have had more impact. Townsend could have done with bringing them on earlier when Ireland snuffed out what turned out to be the last Scotland fightback. Expected more out of Kebble (Skinner had a tough act to follow, Cummings had a solid game. Should have taken off Thomson instead)

On the bright notes, I though JVDW was generally good when he had the ball and Taylor (bar the yellow) was solid. VDM is a top attacking wing, a weapon that we really need to use more. Z Fagerson, J Gray and Cummings were solid in the forwards.

Overall, we need to clean up penalties and sort out our ruck management. Brown in particular needs to be taken aside and told that unless he cleans up discipline at Glasgow, he won't be in the 23 in February. Our set piece is in decent shape (line-out performed this week and that may be to having Thomson there to help jump. If that is the case, we still need to work harder on it). I think M Fagerson was fine at 8 but we missed Watson's dynamism and we need a dynamic option (e.g. Earl, Navidi/Moriarty, VDF) on the bench. Contenders are Gary Graham who has looked good for Newcastle at 8, Haining would be decent if he can sort out his discipline, Bradbury needs consistent form and Crosbie could be the future

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:42 pm

Heuer27 wrote:Can Sam skinner play 8?

He won’t get a look in at his own club but might be an option for the international team. A back row of Ritchie, Watson and Skinner looks better balanced.
None of the current options seem up to the mark.

He can, although I don't think he's shown much form in a Scotland shirt recently either.

I personally think it's a stale approach to attack from the coaching team. Left to right, no offloading, no real plan apart from depend on individuals. Toonies attack plan revolves around having a few very skilled players do everything. If they aren't present or are on poor form it all falls apart. The best international sides play better than the sum of their parts.

Mike Blair also needs to be accountable as skills coach. We're not playing like a top tier side in attack.
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Post by Heuer27 Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:59 pm



He can, although I don't think he's shown much form in a Scotland shirt recently either.

I personally think it's a stale approach to attack from the coaching team. Left to right, no offloading, no real plan apart from depend on individuals. Toonies attack plan revolves around having a few very skilled players do everything. If they aren't present or are on poor form it all falls apart. The best international sides play better than the sum of their parts.

Mike Blair also needs to be accountable as skills coach. We're not playing like a top tier side in attack.[/quote]


Tbf he hasn’t had much of a chance. Ten mins here and there, not really enough to make an impact. Don’t think he’s had a run for club or country since his return from injury.

The attack is very blunt with no support runners off the carrier. This is a recent development as they were excellent at it and scoring from the breaks too.

VDM was flying solo today when we really could be doing with a Huw Jones or Mark Bennett at 13 to run support lines.
No use having the scalpel to open the wound and then have nothing to seal the deal.

Hogg should be there but is too busy thinking of ways to feck up to be any use elsewhere

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:47 pm

Heuer27 wrote:

He can, although I don't think he's shown much form in a Scotland shirt recently either.

I personally think it's a stale approach to attack from the coaching team. Left to right, no offloading, no real plan apart from depend on individuals. Toonies attack plan revolves around having a few very skilled players do everything. If they aren't present or are on poor form it all falls apart. The best international sides play better than the sum of their parts.

Mike Blair also needs to be accountable as skills coach. We're not playing like a top tier side in attack.


Tbf he hasn’t had much of a chance. Ten mins here and there, not really enough to make an impact. Don’t think he’s had a run for club or country since his return from injury.

The attack is very blunt with no support runners off the carrier. This is a recent development as they were excellent at it and scoring from the breaks too.

VDM was flying solo today when we really could be doing with a Huw Jones or Mark Bennett at 13 to run support lines.
No use having the scalpel to open the wound and then have nothing to seal the deal.

Hogg should be there but is too busy thinking of ways to feck up to be any use elsewhere[/quote]

It's been steadily declining the last 3 years, the attack has basically lost all structure. I think Toonie ball was a red herring, any moments of brilliance in attack have been mainly individual efforts for the last couple of years.

My point is it shouldn't matter who is on the park, we should be able to score, everyone should be capable of passing and offloading. For example Price's passing has been pretty poor this autumn, and that's his main job!
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Post by majesticimperialman Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:37 pm

Over all a cracking game Wales deserved the win in the end.

But lets give credit to Italy they really gave Wales a tough time. looking good for next years 6ns.

Was it toby who got mom? i thought if any one ot would of Tipuric, he put in one hell of a shift today.

oops wrong thread, Doh Whistle

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Post by bsando Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:54 pm

Just caught up on the match. Awful performance from Scotland! Worst this year i think, they totally reverted to the 2019 style of rugby and discipline.

The ill discipline was just far too poor. Scotland deserved to lose the match on that alone as they gifted Ireland an easy ride to enforce their game plan. Ritchie probably had his worst game in the seven jersey and Brown did not impress me at all with his ill discipline.

A lot to think about. Ireland were 100% the better side and deserved to win by more probably.

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Post by bsando Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:27 pm

The backrow balance pre match was concerning me and so it turned out to be. Ritchie has to play 6 and Watson at 7 as that is the best combo. Ritchie looked great on the blindside for the 6N this year and he isn't a poacher like Watson is although he does win a few turnovers during games. It was unfair of Toonie to just heap all that pressure on him. In hindsight, Ritchie, Cowan and Fagerson or Thomson might have been a better shout to start that game. The balance wasn't right, it certainly looked and felt very wrong.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:43 pm

Game of two halves. First half was controlled, fluent and thoughtful. Second half was a mess. Key points for me:

1. Duncan Taylor needs the 12 jersey glued onto his back, and we need him to stay fit.

2. Ritchie has a fair bit to learn in terms of game management. He's a wonderful player, but better at 6 with a proper 7.

3. Duhan needs the 11 jersey glued to his back.

4. We need Russell and Hastings back. VDW was OK today, but the composure and game management they bring is sorely missed.

5. Toonie is absolutely right to blame ill discipline. We give away far too many silly soft penalties. We hand teams easy exits and soft points far too often. This wasn't a vintage Ireland side, and yet when we had them under pressure we would so often just gift them an exit.

6. I'm not convinced by Blade or Fagerson in the back row. We badly missed Watson, and I think Cowan starting at 7 with Ritchie at 6 would have been the better shout. We really do need Bradbury to pull his finger out.

In sum, first half was fine. Second half was really poor and we took far too long to get going. We were dominated in the tackle area and breakdown, and couldn't get that foothold in the game.

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Post by BigGee Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:07 pm

Agree with FES about Taylor, in that 1st half he was excellent

Also agree about Ritchie, he has been talked about a lot recently as a potential Lion, but he won;t be on the plane playing like that.

Duhan, on the other hand, may well be on the plane

Darcy Graham also had a poor game, Sleepy Sean won't be retiring just yet. He would have covered both of Earl's tries.

All things considered VDW had a decent enough debut, but he won't be overtaking Finn or Adam any time soon.

Gary Graham is ripping it up in the Premiership with Newcastle 3 from 3, he may be what our backrow needs and will surely be back in the squad for the 6N

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Post by BigGee Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:11 pm

I would also add that I thought Hoggy had a pretty poor game defensively

Yes, he looked great going forward in the first 30 mins, but he needs to remember the basics of being a good FB as well.

They seemed to slip his mind after that.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:13 pm

Agreed on Graham. I rate him highly, but his defensive positioning and decision making was horrible today. No lack of courage and commitment, but he showed inexperience in defence.

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Post by RDW Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:56 pm

More of the same from Scotland.

First 30 minutes was good - we brought similar levels of energy and physicality to the 6N game. The yellow card complete changed the momentum, although to be fair it came after a really good spell of pressure from Ireland.

From then it seemed to be 50 minutes of tackling and giving away penalties, and we weren't able to generate our own momentum shift.

Attack is a huge concern - other than VDM's individual effort we didn't come close to scoring a try. What the hell has happened here? The answer is part no Finn, and part a lack of ideas.

Front row - solid enough. We've got good props but hooker concerns me - Brown gives away far too many penalties and Mcinally has been off form since the restart. Turner has made good impact all tournament though.

Second row - those two are definitely our starting pair. Skinner didn't offer any impact off the bench in the 15 minutes he was on, and we were crying out for impact.

Back row - a real problem area. Ritchie-Watson still our top flankers but 8 is an issue. Fagerson went back to being anonymous, as was Thomson who I just don't think is international class. He's had plenty opportunities now and is yet to stand out on any way. He's not a big tackler or carrier - what does he offer?

Halfbacks - a poor game from Price, who was given the vast majority of gametime this tournament. VDW was solid enough and looked comfortable this level. He went AWOL in the 2nd half but Dan Carter wouldn't have made s difference given we had no ball or go forwards.

Midfield - Taylor offered some nice impacts in the first half but was very much on his own - he was looking for offloads but there was no one there. Harris his usual self - solid. He had a nice big carry on the first half. Another problem area!

Back 3 - VDM has carried on his attacking form into international level which is pleasing to see. There's lots of good wingers in the Lions nations, but I genuinely think he's on a par with Jonny May as the most potent attacking weapon available. He even made some tackles! Graham was really poor and looked short on confidence. Maitland would have been a better pick and may be called back for the 6N. Problem is I don't think he'll realistically have a game to play for Sarries between now and then! Hogg was trying a bit too hard. He also needs to learn to pass to VDM!

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Post by bsando Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:31 am

Good assessment RDW and others above, I think we can only hope that Toonie deliberately went with an experimental team and will select more cautiously in the 6N.

As blunt as Scotland’s midfield were against France I still prefer to see Scotland stay in the fight until the final ten minutes. Scotland were done early in the second half despite the solo effort of VDM. It was disappointing to see Scotland fall into the trap of letting Ireland get under their skin and complaining to the referee to somehow regain the lost momentum from the first half. An immature performance really.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:07 am

Is it time to pass the armband on too? Hogg was a very level headed captain against worse opposition but seems to lose it whenever we're up against it which is against any of the top 8 pretty much.

Watson is a sure pick, why not have him as captain? What about Cummings? I always think the role is best suited to a forward who can just lead by example.

With regards to 8, agree with others it's time to bring Gary Graham in. I think Fagerson plays well with the right players around him. If the combo isn't there I think Graham could do a very decent job. He played really well last time he played international, and has that bite about him. A similar player to haining on form except a bit leaner.

I think we need to go back to rugby 101. The guys need to be practicing support plays, offloads and passing. Whether this is a problem developed at club level is hard to say, having Hodge coach some of these players probably doesn't help but the Glasgow players are equally bad. I think a few coaching changes again would honestly help. Mike Blair needs to get experience elsewhere, our players skills seem to have regressed significantly. As I said before we can't have "No Finn, no attack" rule, all of the team needs to be able to attack. For a while we looked like that in 2017 but again, regression.

Toonie also needs to step back from attack coaching. I don't mind him being solely head coach still but our attack is far too similar to what it was when he was attack coach back in 2010 to be a coincidence. I think we need to bring in experience from outside there. Just look at the difference Tandy has made. Who would it be? Not sure. There's got to be someone interested enough in international coaching who would be a great addition.
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Post by profitius Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:45 am

Decent performance from ireland. Clicked into gear after 30 min and looked comfortable enough. There were some nice passages of play but they need to work on some things.


POM was the stand out player. His new role seems to suit him. Doris and Henshaw were excellent too.


Don't think the Scots were at their best. I expected a bit more. Maybe all teams are getting used to the new breakdown interpretations.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:49 am

profitius wrote:Decent performance from ireland. Clicked into gear after 30 min and looked comfortable enough. There were some nice passages of play but they need to work on some things.


POM was the stand out player. His new role seems to suit him. Doris and Henshaw were excellent too.


Don't think the Scots were at their best. I expected a bit more. Maybe all teams are getting used to the new breakdown interpretations.

Agreed on POM - thought he played a stormer for the full time he was on the pitch. Great engine.

Thought Murray looked to be in better form and got to the breakdown quicker with less hand-flapping this time round.

Am still mystified as to why Aki is selected. He's going to be 33.5 when the RWC comes round - is Farrell really going to persist with him all the way to France '23?

Stockdale has more learning to do but his ability to pass off both hands needs to be more used in the backline when he joins it.

Earls - what can you say? He delivers consistently but again age is against him so is the next 6N the time to bring in his replacement with Lowe, Larmour, Conway, Keenan, Addison, and Stockdale all competing for spots?



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Post by Collapse2005 Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:32 am

My biggest frustration is that I dont think we are as good a breakdown team as we used to be under Schmidt. It was the platform for which all our success came, and really worked. I think we miss guys like Best and O'Brien for the great breakdown work they used to do. England are now the best in the world at it along side SA. Maybe Leavy will make a difference when he returns but I doubt it. We just seem to have a much less organised breakdown and it is hurting us in defense as well as attack.

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