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Post by Recwatcher16 Tue 02 Feb 2021, 5:13 pm

So terrestial television, Channel 4 is to be the main provider of live cricket for the first time since cricket went behind a paywall in 2005 and lost tens of millions of viewers cumulatively over the last fifteen years.

Meanwhile it appears the 6N this year will be the last for a while on free to air TV, despite Australian rugby moving part of their coverage back fta TV and Test cricket is now doing the same.

Unions need to think very carefully on what their priorities should be in terms of awareness and subsequent participation in the sport at all levels - as opposed to paying for the professional tier of the sport which is what is driving this dash for cash and exacerbated by the pandemic.

The NZRU are keeping the paywall and instead offering a percentage of the all black brand to private equity - the Unions have lost the plot.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 02 Feb 2021, 8:11 pm

Short termism.
I agree, big mistake. Not for nothing, in UK the Six Nations belongs to the entire country and should be on free tv.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 Feb 2021, 8:36 pm

Alternative point of view...sometimes highlights packages sell a sport more than the whole match!

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Post by Cyril Wed 03 Feb 2021, 7:58 am

Both BBC and ITV coverage is pretty awful though. Sky, BT Sport and now even Prime provide a superior product.

Surely everyone has subscription channels these days?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 8:29 am

Hate prime. Picture looks weird and almost blurry when players are running. Something to do with the definition they film in?

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Post by westisbest Wed 03 Feb 2021, 10:52 am

Yeah prime wasn’t great viewing for the autumn nations cup.
Not everyone has sky or BT, or even both.


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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 11:46 am

I could not agree more. Going behind a paywall has killed the Pro14 in Wales. At least S4C will still get to air games for the 6N.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 11:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:I could not agree more. Going behind a paywall has killed the Pro14 in Wales. At least S4C will still get to air games for the 6N.

Potentially but not definitely until the bids are confirmed.

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Post by RiscaGame Wed 03 Feb 2021, 11:56 am

The funny thing about games on S4C, is that Welsh fans still find something to moan about, when they can't offer English commentary. It seems like the Rugby Mad Welsh Public really do want the moon on a stick.

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Post by Brendan Wed 03 Feb 2021, 12:01 pm

I think delayed coverage works fine.

No sure the playing numbers for cricket in England but rugby seems to be much more rooted in grassroots and clubs in town/city being the lifeblood.

Also it's easier to go to a rugby game of an afternoon or evening and watching on the TV it's a 2 hour all done event.  Cricket on the other hand as a sport you will have on in the back ground and check in on it.  You might watch your team bat and not care about the bowling part.  It's not a tight game of rugby where lead changes constantly. Cricket rarely has a tense game start to finish.

Add in that international cricket is alot more like league then Union.  There are a few good teams, some make up the numbers and everyone else is really poor.  The English don't have a national rivalry with AUS or India.  Scotland and Ireland aren't a challange 99.99% of the time.

Rugby has the 6 nations and European Cups with real competitions and riviallies between teams and can catch the attention.  The European Cup has been on paid has been on PPV for 10 years yet it is bigger now then in the 2000s.

All this comes down to what funds the sport is it matches on TV with casual fans who don't spend any money to maintain the sport.  Or is it school participants, local club involvement and contributing fans.

In Ireland Rugby has grown more due to schools and local clubs.  Many players like John Hayes found rugby through school.  Jacky Carty has played underage soccer for Ireland, underage county GAA but plays Rugby because of finances.  The growth in west Cork was down to a well know local/county GAA player choosing Rugby over GAA.

Decline in most sports is down to the lack of interest in sport and sport being seen in schools as an evil product that has the cheek to tell delicate flowers that they aren't special and just as good as everyone else.

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Post by Brendan Wed 03 Feb 2021, 12:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I could not agree more. Going behind a paywall has killed the Pro14 in Wales. At least S4C will still get to air games for the 6N.

I know since it went fully behind the paywall (even though there are still games on freeview) the fans have even stopped showing up to games.

On a more serious note maybe the terrible teams in Wales are doing more to kill rugby in Wales then the TV. It must be hard to follow something where your best team is competing with your rivals worse team.  Judgement days have been getting bigger which implies interest is going up.

Since Pro14 started here are the best Welsh place finish
20/21 3rd/6 in both(might pipe Connancht who have two games in hand)
19/20 3rd/7, 5th/7
18/19 4th/7 in both
17/18 2nd/7, 4th/7
16/17 Pro12 3rd, 4th (had winner)

Rugby dying in Wales has been happening since the 2000s yet hasn't happened yet. At what point can we say the sport isn't terminal.  Why will now be any different.  Just because fan numbers are tied to results doesn't mean that poor teams reflect a fall in rugby interest.  If team Wales do poor will fans reduce because they don't want to go see losing trams or because it's behind a paywall.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 12:55 pm

Brendan wrote:On a more serious note maybe the terrible teams in Wales are doing more to kill rugby in Wales then the TV.

I love it when this gets thrown around, the regions have not really been movers or shakers since the start, yet the crowd numbers are still the same, ish. It's the casual fans that have been lost, which brings me onto the next one.

Brendan wrote: Judgement days have been getting bigger which implies interest is going up.

Where did you get this from ? A quick check on the WWW would tell you a different story, it started off good, and indeed it was growing, but the past few years covid year taken out, the attendances have been down, funnily enough, it is since the time the decision was made to put the Pro14 in Wales on an obscure channel that nobody had ever heard of. The casual or armchair regional fans have stopped going.

Brendan wrote:Rugby dying in Wales has been happening since the 2000s yet hasn't happened yet. At what point can we say the sport isn't terminal.  Why will now be any different.  Just because fan numbers are tied to results doesn't mean that poor teams reflect a fall in rugby interest.  

Who has said anything about rugby dying, or being terminal ? Just because the Pro14 is on the wane it does not mean rugby is. South Africa aside, Wales has the most registered rugby clubs in the Pro14. We just have too much rugby for the amount of people. There is a hell of a lot rugby outside of the regions in Wales, and some communities thrive around their rugby club.

Brendan wrote: If team Wales do poor will fans reduce because they don't want to go see losing trams or because it's behind a paywall.

People will not pay for it, that is for sure, but Wales were rubbish during the 90's and early 2000's but the support was always there, full stadiums and huge TV audiences. My guess is, if it is on another obscure channel like the Pro14 is on then it will be a disaster in my opinion.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 12:56 pm

RiscaGame wrote:The funny thing about games on S4C, is that Welsh fans still find something to moan about, when they can't offer English commentary. It seems like the Rugby Mad Welsh Public really do want the moon on a stick.

I prefer the Welsh commentary, I chose to use that option as I am Welsh speaking, I find the commentators easier to listen to as well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:06 pm

And if it's not even on s4c? If the paywall killed interest in the league would it kill internationals in wales?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And if it's not even on s4c? If the paywall killed interest in the league would it kill internationals in wales?

There would be a lot less fans watching. A lot of people in Wales will not pay for sports, there would still be huge amounts flocking to the pubs and clubs, but a lot of fans will miss out, either out of principle or the fact that they cannot afford it, and there is a lot of people in the cannot afford it bracket in Wales.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:30 pm

But it would still generate the unions more money especially since the guys and gals who cant afford it arent putting any money into the sport anyway. The tricky thing is to ensure that there are enough youth opportunities for kids to get involved. A successful team will get people interested even if they cant watch on the bbc.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:But it would still generate the unions more money especially since the guys and gals who cant afford it arent putting any money into the sport anyway. The tricky thing is to ensure that there are enough youth opportunities for kids to get involved. A successful team will get people interested even if they cant watch on the bbc.

Again this is just short termism. In the long run, without the armchair fans, the interest will die.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:40 pm

It would only initially be for 5 years (think thats the length of the tv deal?). then can see if theres an adverse impact. As above there would still have to be highlights and in a lot of ways rugby can be more accessible for people that way anyway as it gets rid of a lot of the setting up of scrums etc. Hasn't really harmed England having some of their matches on PPV, and vice versa Wales will still presumably have some/all their AIs on free to air?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 1:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would only initially be for 5 years (think thats the length of the tv deal?). then can see if theres an adverse impact. As above there would still have to be highlights and in a lot of ways rugby can be more accessible for people that way anyway as it gets rid of a lot of the setting up of scrums etc. Hasn't really harmed England having some of their matches on PPV, and vice versa Wales will still presumably have some/all their AIs on free to air?

I think Wales will have all their home games on free to air.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:01 pm

So thats normally 4 games every year. Potentially the summer tour ones also. The highlights of the 6 nations. And a lot more money. You can understand why they'd be tempted.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So thats normally 4 games every year. Potentially the summer tour ones also. The highlights of the 6 nations. And a lot more money. You can understand why they'd be tempted.

Yes I can see why they are tempted. Also, I can see why the Pro14 took the cash, but it is short term gain, and long term pain. They need to look at the bigger picture here. This is not like Premiership football where the whole world and it's dog want a slice, this is a niche sport.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

How many fans watch the 6 nations who wouldn't watch the AIs though? cant imagine it would be that different, and that money is part of the bigger picture too. Probably impacts a team like England more than Wales surely given there are very few games on free tv, bar the occasional summer tour in Lions years. I take more positives from this tbh as you can tell. I think that children will continue to play as long as the team remains successful though. The run to the world cup final for me would have generated more interest than a 6 nations win in my mind. shame about the result like.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:27 pm

I'm not so sure. I know people who really only watch Rugby with any forethought when the 6 Nations is on. Kind of similar to America when fans only tune in for the Super Bowl or the NFL playoffs. Almost like some genetic programming or annual ritual.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:How many fans watch the 6 nations who wouldn't watch the AIs though? cant imagine it would be that different, and that money is part of the bigger picture too. Probably impacts a team like England more than Wales surely given there are very few games on free tv, bar the occasional summer tour in Lions years. I take more positives from this tbh as you can tell. I think that children will continue to play as long as the team remains successful though. The run to the world cup final for me would have generated more interest than a 6 nations win in my mind. shame about the result like.

It's different in England, there are 55 million of you. There are only 3.5 million in Wales, and a large chunk of us support Swansea City, Cardiff City and a host of premiership football teams. Yes some of those fans will also follow rugby, but will they pay for it ? It's these fans and the armchair fans, who will by a jersey and watch it on the tele that will be lost, and the hardcore fans can say what they like, without these casual fans keeping the game in the public eye, there is no future, we need the "potential" fans.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:29 pm

doctor_grey wrote:I'm not so sure.  I know people who really only watch Rugby with any forethought when the 6 Nations is on.  Kind of similar to America when fans only tune in for the Super Bowl or the NFL playoffs.   Almost like some genetic programming or annual ritual.  

Yes, you are right, when team Wales rock up, it's almost a given. But will people pay for it ? That is what you need to ask. These people's interest will soon fade and what you said is not the norm will be no longer, that is the worry.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How many fans watch the 6 nations who wouldn't watch the AIs though? cant imagine it would be that different, and that money is part of the bigger picture too. Probably impacts a team like England more than Wales surely given there are very few games on free tv, bar the occasional summer tour in Lions years. I take more positives from this tbh as you can tell. I think that children will continue to play as long as the team remains successful though. The run to the world cup final for me would have generated more interest than a 6 nations win in my mind. shame about the result like.

It's different in England, there are 55 million of you. There are only 3.5 million in Wales, and a large chunk of us support Swansea City, Cardiff City and a host of premiership football teams. Yes some of those fans will also follow rugby, but will they pay for it ? It's these fans and the armchair fans, who will by a jersey and watch it on the tele that will be lost, and the hardcore fans can say what they like, without these casual fans keeping the game in the public eye, there is no future, we need the "potential" fans.
And as above for Wales you'll still have full games from other times of the year and highlights. The guys who won't pay, well you're not losing anything from that anyway.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:33 pm

doctor_grey wrote:I'm not so sure.  I know people who really only watch Rugby with any forethought when the 6 Nations is on.  Kind of similar to America when fans only tune in for the Super Bowl or the NFL playoffs.   Almost like some genetic programming or annual ritual.  
Ditto, what do Unions lose from that by moving it to PPV? Not ppv sorry used that above as well, paywall tv stations etc.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 2:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:I'm not so sure.  I know people who really only watch Rugby with any forethought when the 6 Nations is on.  Kind of similar to America when fans only tune in for the Super Bowl or the NFL playoffs.   Almost like some genetic programming or annual ritual.  
Ditto, what do Unions lose from that by moving it to PPV? Not ppv sorry used that above as well, paywall tv stations etc.

But you are not looking at the bigger picture here. I do not think you will ever understand either, like it or not, rugby needs all the support it can get, and that includes all the fair weather fans, the armchair fans, everyone, without these fans, the support will just dwindle away into nothing.

If say, SKY get the 6N, that will not be so bad, as the people who by SKY Sports for the football, will still have the rugby in their day to day viewing, it will be advertised and they will be seeing it. Although a large fanbase will still be lost, but not all.

Now, if an obscure channel like Premier Sports get the 6N it would be a disaster, they will have nothing else to offer. It's happened with the Pro14 in Wales, so we do have a precedent to compare this to.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 3:10 pm

I don't think i do get the point you're making LD, but what do the fair weather fans who watch the 6 Nations bring? Why would any union be adversely affected by them not getting Sky (as that example)? They'll be getting more money. That large fan base is doing nothing sat at home watching the BBC. Even gate receipts would be more than made up for by a potential big big by TV. There are already crowds which aren't at capacity.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Feb 2021, 3:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think i do get the point you're making LD, but what do the fair weather fans who watch the 6 Nations bring?

These are the ones who will buy a jersey, they will go and watch Wales, even the women in daffodil hats and the what not, they will talk about their experience, they drive up the viewing figures and turn the game into product worth sponsoring.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would any union be adversely affected by them not getting Sky (as that example)? They'll be getting more money. That large fan base is doing nothing sat at home watching the BBC.

Because, as I have said above, these fans sitting at home watching on the BBC is more attractive to sponsors than fans sitting at home not watching it as they do not want to pay for it. Also, these are the people who we want to turn from armchair fans to proper go to the game fans, if they are not watching on tv then when ?

Your average fan is already being priced out of international rugby due to the price of the tickets nowadays, and here you are trying to tell me that putting the game behind a paywall is a good thing. If rugby was as massive around the world like football or formula one, then yes I would agree, but it isn't.

How can taking fans away from rugby be a good thing ?


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 3:41 pm

Ah. I'm mainly not thinking of the guys who buy shirts and attend games as fair weather fans. Will they really be stopped because they may have to buy sky or go to the pub (when we can again)? Will the los of a few hundred jerseys not be made up by a better tv deal? : thats what the unions will be thinking.

So its sponsorship as well, pretty sure that England get enough sponsorship despite being on sky for half/more than half the year.

Again your last point there if fans are being priced out of going...the unions need to make a judgment call on price per ticket and obviously getting more money on their tv deals.

I think i'm getting your overall point, you want the product in front of as many people as possible as you think sponsorship and short sales will be equal to the tv deals. I don't think they would be by quite a distance. Again for Wales at least there will still be games on tv and highlights. If those shirt sales are hit in February they can also then sell their remaining games for money to BT.

Summary, people at home watching the BBC do not bring anywhere near the same money as this plan. Also should interest die and the likes of BT not go for it, it'll come back to Beeb.

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Post by Brendan Wed 03 Feb 2021, 8:32 pm

The Welsh Rugby team get bigger attendances for games then the Welsh soccer team. More may attend professional soccer at club level but not international.

The belief that the Welsh pro teams are dying in the pro14 has been the story since the regions were formed.  While they might not be growing as fast as the Irish big 3 I have to say they are growing not dying.  Their revenue is up, their fan base is no worse than pre-regiional (not one off games unless you want to compare them to judgement day).

As always everything affects the Welsh the worse in some people's eyes (not rational Welsh fans).

Scotland are effected more by soccer then Wales and are able to support a fully professional league.  Ireland has to support 2 semi pro leagues which are both better then the Welsh league.  Premership affects Ireland as much as Wales.  Let's not mention the GAA.  On an average weekend Ireland has about 20k attend too soccer in ireland (Not counting the hoards who go to Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and London). The Scots get an average of 15k x6 game on a weekend.

So yes everyone faces the same issues but for certain posters it's only the Welsh that struggle.  Learn to embrace the problems instead of complaining like a child who thinks their parents don't understand how hard their life is

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:04 am

Brendan wrote:Scotland are effected more by soccer then Wales and are able to support a fully professional league. Ireland has to support 2 semi pro leagues which are both better then the Welsh league. Premership affects Ireland as much as Wales. Let's not mention the GAA. On an average weekend Ireland has about 20k attend too soccer in ireland (Not counting the hoards who go to Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and London). The Scots get an average of 15k x6 game on a weekend.

Yes, but Scotland and Ireland have twice the population of Wales.

Brendan wrote:The belief that the Welsh pro teams are dying in the pro14 has been the story since the regions were formed. While they might not be growing as fast as the Irish big 3 I have to say they are growing not dying. Their revenue is up, their fan base is no worse than pre-regiional (not one off games unless you want to compare them to judgement day).

Again you are quoting this, where has anyone said the pro teams are dying ? They are the same as they have always been. It's the Pro14 that is losing itself in Wales. the only people who care about it, are the people who support the regions. Where as before, in Wales there were loads of people who would support it from their armchairs or the clubs.

A lot of people who used to go back to the club after watching Merthyr play and watch the regions, they do not anymore as my club does not pay for PS.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:21 am

Same argument as the internationals. If you're sat at home watching the bbc you're not going to be missed by unions moving games to sky.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same argument as the internationals. If you're sat at home watching the bbc you're not going to be missed by unions moving games to sky.

Very short term view and does nothing for growth within any sport. Those watching on BBC might not contribute money to the sport but decreasing viewership also decreases participation and that then becomes a long term issue.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:31 am

Touched upon above but I'm not sure it's true anyway. It would be more an issue for england than wales but you still have the highlights. Any kid watching the full matches of england in the autumn is more likely to not want to play anyway!

The big picture is that you need to monitor it all and still generate as much income as possible.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:53 am

The conversation seems to have centred on who is paying for what and whilst clearly important, the critical long term factor is exposure and cultural value over monetary value.

If sport is not seen as available and only the die hards pay/tune in, you make the sport irrelevant for the next generation. Free to air TV is seen as validating what are the important sporting and cultural events within a country and people respond as either players or fans accordingly.
If an internet paywall doesn't matter - why would the ECB give up Sky money and 'give' it to Channel 4 ? I dont believe Channel 4 would pay more than Sky - unless Sky see viewer numbers actually falling and consequently paying less for it anyway. It is well known that cricket participation generally has fallen off a cliff in the last decade with only a slight upturn with every Ashes series, which is given a national profile.

Rugby has enough problems with participation given the profile with head injuries without losing the sporting cultural coverage that the 6N gets every winter and the enthusiasm it generates.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:58 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:The conversation seems to have centred on who is paying for what and whilst clearly important, the critical long term factor is exposure and cultural value over monetary value.

If sport is not seen as available and only the die hards pay/tune in, you make the sport irrelevant for the next generation. Free to air TV is seen as validating what are the important sporting and cultural events within a country and people respond as either players or fans accordingly.
If an internet paywall doesn't matter - why would the ECB give up Sky money and 'give' it to Channel 4 ? I dont believe Channel 4 would pay more than Sky - unless Sky see viewer numbers actually falling and consequently paying less for it anyway. It is well known that cricket participation generally has fallen off a cliff in the last decade with only a slight upturn with every Ashes series, which is given a national profile.

Rugby has enough problems with participation given the profile with head injuries without losing the sporting cultural coverage that the 6N gets every winter and the enthusiasm it generates.

Agree 100%. At least there are some people on here who can see the bigger picture. OK


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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:59 am

What are the participation stats for cricket either of you? Only thing I can find is a small survey.

Bigger picture needs money in there 2 else you're just complaining you cant watch without paying for sky.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 12:44 pm

Brendan wrote:The Welsh Rugby team get bigger attendances for games then the Welsh soccer team. More may attend professional soccer at club level but not international.

Sorry, I thought I replied to this bit. There are more supporters of Welsh rugby than there are of Welsh football in Wales. That is why the Wales rugby team generate more interest and have bigger crowds than the Welsh football team.

I wish people outside of Wales would realise that people in Wales have more than the 4 pro sides to follow.

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Post by Brendan Thu 04 Feb 2021, 2:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:The Welsh Rugby team get bigger attendances for games then the Welsh soccer team. More may attend professional soccer at club level but not international.

Sorry, I thought I replied to this bit. There are more supporters of Welsh rugby than there are of Welsh football in Wales. That is why the Wales rugby team generate more interest and have bigger crowds than the Welsh football team.

I wish people outside of Wales would realise that people in Wales have more than the 4 pro sides to follow.

More people watch Welsh teams competing in the English top 4 divisions then watch Wales at international level in soccer.  34k on average attended Swansea, Cardiff and Newport combined in the 19/20 season (when fans were allowed).  Sadly the last game held at the Millennium Stadium was about 2018 with dropping numbers.  They now play in Cardiff City Stadium which only has 33k captivity so less then the 34k that attend the top 3 teams. We could include Wrexham (4k)but they are in the part of Wales that rugby fans forget about.

Wales average attendance for international rugby for 2019 is about 60k. The 4 top rugby teams the regions get about 25-28k between them.  I doubt when you compare the rest of the rugby clubs v the rest of the soccer clubs I would be surprised if the extra 10k lead the soccer clubs hold over rugby would be made up.

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Post by Brendan Thu 04 Feb 2021, 3:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I could not agree more. Going behind a paywall has killed the Pro14 in Wales. At least S4C will still get to air games for the 6N.

I don't know why you can't see that saying that going behind the paywall is killing the pro14 in Wales is incorrect.

Judgement days by year
2013 36174
2014 30441
2015 52762
2016 68262
2017 60642
2018 62338
2019 51297
2020 0
If you take 2016 as an anomaly (in part because you had two good teams) then it is doing fine.  2019 is low in part due to the WC being in Japan so people saving money.

When the premier deal and SA deal was announced WOL stated it doubled the TV deal for the league from £15m to £30m a year (or £1m per team).  Or dont you care that SA is behind a paywall.  Now if the Pro14 hadn't done this how many of the current players could the Welsh teams of afforded.  Without those players would attendances have fallen more, in which case going behind a paywall has helped not hindered the Pro14 in Wales.

If Pro14 is killing itself in Wales then it needs to take advice from the RFU on how to kill a league like they have done with Championship as the PRO14 are clearly doing a bad job

Again though I come back to the school sports and the attack of the nanny state of thinking sports are bad.  School does more to grow rugby in kids eyes then seeing it on TV as people will get more from representing their school (and the added perks of it) then seeing AWJ on TV.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 3:37 pm

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:The Welsh Rugby team get bigger attendances for games then the Welsh soccer team. More may attend professional soccer at club level but not international.

Sorry, I thought I replied to this bit. There are more supporters of Welsh rugby than there are of Welsh football in Wales. That is why the Wales rugby team generate more interest and have bigger crowds than the Welsh football team.

I wish people outside of Wales would realise that people in Wales have more than the 4 pro sides to follow.

More people watch Welsh teams competing in the English top 4 divisions then watch Wales at international level in soccer.  34k on average attended Swansea, Cardiff and Newport combined in the 19/20 season (when fans were allowed).  Sadly the last game held at the Millennium Stadium was about 2018 with dropping numbers.  They now play in Cardiff City Stadium which only has 33k captivity so less then the 34k that attend the top 3 teams. We could include Wrexham (4k)but they are in the part of Wales that rugby fans forget about.

Wales average attendance for international rugby for 2019 is about 60k. The 4 top rugby teams the regions get about 25-28k between them.  I doubt when you compare the rest of the rugby clubs v the rest of the soccer clubs I would be surprised if the extra 10k lead the soccer clubs hold over rugby would be made up.

That's a long winded way of agreeing with me that is. Very Happy

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 3:55 pm

Brendan wrote:2019 is low in part due to the WC being in Japan so people saving money

Nonsense, 2019 is the 1st one since they put it behind the paywall. Thats why it's down. There was a world cup in 2015 yet that year was up by over 30000 people.

Brendan wrote:When the premier deal and SA deal was announced WOL stated it doubled the TV deal for the league from £15m to £30m a year (or £1m per team). Or dont you care that SA is behind a paywall. Now if the Pro14 hadn't done this how many of the current players could the Welsh teams of afforded. Without those players would attendances have fallen more, in which case going behind a paywall has helped not hindered the Pro14 in Wales.

Here we are again, bring money into it, that's not a barometer for how popular the Pro14 is in Wales. You are again bringing the regions into the debate, I am not arguing about them, I have agreed that they have stayed the same.

Brendan wrote:If Pro14 is killing itself in Wales then it needs to take advice from the RFU on how to kill a league like they have done with Championship as the PRO14 are clearly doing a bad job

The popularity of the Pro14 in Wales has nosedived since it's been on Premier sports, the thing is Premier sports gauged their potential earning on the figures they saw that BBC Wales were getting, they have nowhere near the numbers that BBC Wales were getting. If you think this is a good thing, because the regions got a payday at the start then so be it.

Brendan wrote:Again though I come back to the school sports and the attack of the nanny state of thinking sports are bad. School does more to grow rugby in kids eyes then seeing it on TV as people will get more from representing their school (and the added perks of it) then seeing AWJ on TV.


You really think kids seeing AWJ who is idolised in Wales on TV does nothing to aspire the next young kid to be like him ? You underestimate this I think.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 4:09 pm

They'll see the next Jones on the TV highlights of the 6 nations at worst. And the see him in the AIs. They'll get the arses down to the welsh prem and watch rugby etc.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 04 Feb 2021, 4:16 pm

There could be a number of reasons why attendance was down for Judgement Day 2019. Nobody can say with any justification that it is purely down to one factor. Another reason could be that Season Ticket holders don't like the event, because they can't control where they sit compared to their usual home game. I know of a fair few Cardiff Blues and Dragons supporters who take the hit on the game because of this. There was also a storm on the day, which disrupted travel and could've affected walk ups etc.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 4:20 pm

RiscaGame wrote:There could be a number of reasons why attendance was down for Judgement Day 2019. Nobody can say with any justification that it is purely down to one factor. Another reason could be that Season Ticket holders don't like the event, because they can't control where they sit compared to their usual home game. I know of a fair few Cardiff Blues and Dragons supporters who take the hit on the game because of this. There was also a storm on the day, which disrupted travel and could've affected walk ups etc.

Yeah, I get that Risca, but you cannot deny, the bulk of the Judgement Day crowd were armchair/fair weather fans who saw it as a day out, it was almost treated the same as international day. It's these fans that are being lost due to the Pro14 being on PS.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 4:25 pm

So they won't turn up at a stadium if the match isn't on their preferred tv channel? Bizarre logic by them.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 04 Feb 2021, 4:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So they won't turn up at a stadium if the match isn't on their preferred tv channel? Bizarre logic by them.

No, it's because they have lost interest, they are not watching the teams play all year so the pull to go and watch them on a day out is less. The whole build up of it is lost.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 4:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So they won't turn up at a stadium if the match isn't on their preferred tv channel? Bizarre logic by them.

No, it's because they have lost interest, they are not watching the teams play all year so the pull to go and watch them on a day out is less. The whole build up of it is lost.

So the they lose interest because the match is not on their preferred tv channel, so they don't attend the match and instead go and watch it on tv. You're getting in a tangle here.

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