England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

by **Pal Joey** Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

Is that what it was? Couldn't fool me... Smile

p.s. it was a 'nowhere in particular' accent.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 5:43 am

Now Eng bats and will it be another episode of
Lame Duck Shooting Game played by Indian spinners
I hope Eng put a fight and take the game into 4th ing and 4th day

by msp83 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 5:43 am

Very unfortunate for Washington Sundar, stranded on 96. After a fine, hundred partnership for the 8th wicket, India lost their last 3 for none. Opened up with a needless runout from Axar, and Stokes never gave Sundar a chance thereafter, getting Ishant first ball, and Siraj cleaned up right after that.
Just rewards for Stokes who put in a fine shift even when not at a hundred percent. Again making it so clear that Root's handling of him as a bowler has been poor throughout the series.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 5:43 am

Now Eng bats and will it be another episode of
Lame Duck Shooting Game played by Indian spinners
I hope Eng put a fight and take the game into 4th inning and 4th day

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 06 Mar 2021, 5:49 am

Shame to see Sundar denied his Washing-ton drumroll

by msp83 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:17 am

England avoided any damage in that mini session.
Have a feeling we would see a better showing from their batsmen in this innings and India will have to bowl really well and keep it very disciplined...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:24 am

msp83 wrote:England avoided any damage in that mini session.
Have a feeling we would see a better showing from their batsmen in this innings and India will have to bowl really well and keep it very disciplined...

Wish I shared your optimism for England’s chances msp!

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:48 am

the procession starts...9 more to go

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:51 am

Lame duck shooting game is on...8 more to be shot down

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:51 am

That should be Bairstow’s final test innings

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:57 am

that would have been deemed plumb had umpire given root
Eng avoid narrowly being 3 down

by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:06 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:That should be Bairstow’s final test innings

I was baffled by his recall and his return of scores has done nothing to justify it.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:10 am

7 more to go...
This ain't going into the 4th day for sure....most like not even into the 4th inning

by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:11 am

Freak dismissal for Sibley. Need a freak partnership from Root and Stokes now.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:11 am

Sibley nails a sweep, which balloons off the short leg trying to evade it...and is a simple catch for Pant.

Lady luck putting a nail in the coffin of this series now!

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:11 am

Root is looking like in the mind frame of sweeping, slog sweeping, and hitting out a glorious 27 ish

by msp83 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:16 am

I thought England might put up a better showing 2nd time round. This continues to be the most sporting pitch of the series, and English batting remains as clueless as ever. Twin strikes from Ashwin early after lunch, and Root had to come out early, and has seen one more back to the hut. Their 2 best batsmen out there in the middle now, can Root and Stokes make it competitive?

by msp83 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:19 am

Sibley dismissal reminding of Pujara in the first test...

by msp83 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:21 am

Stokes is not going to make India bat again. Axar with his 2nd.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:22 am

6 more to go....Eng are already thinking HOME and the flight back to Family, dogs, Cool spring

by msp83 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:29 am

Root need to trust himself better here, he's better than a batsman who's only shot against spin is to sweep.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:45 am

why has kohli brought siraj...we need spinners in tandem

by guildfordbat Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:08 am

KP_fan wrote:Feel sad for Sundar
Ishant and Siraj how brainless and irresponsible
Owed a lot more application for Sundar

Yep, that was sad. Don't even have the consolation of you choosing him in the tipping comp. Laugh

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:09 am

Pope's painful inning.and tour ends
Looked ike a man waving a sword in a dark room.tryijng
To kill imaginary enemies
Like Bess , pope too ain't cut out for top level again spin....so evident
5 more to go

by Guest Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:12 am

65-6 absolute shambles

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:12 am

KP_fan wrote:Root is looking like in the mind frame of sweeping, slog sweeping, and hitting out a glorious 27 ish

Root plays as expected and delivers almost as many as expected .
4 more to go

by guildfordbat Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:13 am

KP_fan wrote:6 more to go....Eng are already thinking HOME and the flight back to Family, dogs, Cool spring

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:24 am

guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:6 more to go....Eng are already thinking HOME and the flight back to Family, dogs, Cool spring

https://celebs.infoseemedia.com/jonny-bairstow/jonny-bairstow-with-his-pet-dog/

Barstow during break I heard from Swann

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:31 am

Lawrence looks.more competent against spin....compared to Burns, sibley, crawley, pope and bairstow

by guildfordbat Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:07 am

alfie wrote:Some generally thoughtful comments re Bess above...my own take is that he has at the very least been poorly handled lately but how he reacts in the medium to long term is the most important thing - and for that we need to wait and see.

Different people have different opinions of course : I reckon his efforts in SA , the home summer and even this tour suggest there is plenty of promise there to work with ; though he is/was nowhere near the finished product.

My complaint around the "handling" is this : In Sri Lanka , he was very successful. Not an opinion - a documented fact. Now it is true that he was blessed by an arguably excessive amount of good luck in achieving that success ; but , to make an obvious comparison : when have you last heard of a batsman making a couple of centuries with the aid of a number of dropped chances and almost immediately being discarded after a single failure and being told "all your runs were just too lucky ; we think you need to go back to the nets and sort out your game" ?
Now it may well be that the loss of control in the second innings in Chennai (he bowled pretty well in the first innings , and took important wickets , let it not be forgotten) pointed to a serious problem - he certainly bowled a large number of loose deliveries in that innings , not denying that. Why , I do not claim to know. But given that this performance was definitely rather out of character with his earlier efforts on tour (and please note I am not claiming they were perfect - just that they were nothing like as loose in control) the management had the option to either say " OK , bad hair day, let's work on it in the nets and see how it goes next game" ; or - as they did , take the opportunity to give Moeen a game (whatever we think of that idea as a selection is basically irrelevant here).
But having taken the latter choice , it would surely have been far better to say little or nothing in public...cast it as rest and rotation if you like : while discussing it with the young man , working to iron out his issues (which is what coaches are for) and therefore enabling him to come back in either the third or fourth match (inevitable he had to play in at least one of them) with a lot less pressure on his shoulders. Still tricky for him - we all know how it feels when we have had a bad day and then our next game starts with being hit for four , no ? But at least he wouldn't have known that the commentators were all lined up to say " Oh yes ! There is a full toss -again" the moment he overpitched (as even the best of them do from time to time)

As I say : it will be for him to deal with. Won't be easy ; but I - like most on here - wish him well. And I hope he isn't summarily discarded from the squad on the strength of a couple of poor matches. Lot of cricket to be played over the next year or so and there are not many English spinners around who stand out as immediately selectable if Leach gets injured and Moeen (who has his own confidence issues) isn't ready to slot back in.

Very fine post, Alfie. Typically thorough and lacking bias.

Just a couple of points.

I'm pretty sure I've read that Bess is quite a feisty character. He certainly seemed that when he gave me a look like daggers as he was fielding on the boundary at Surrey's small Guildford outground and overheard a slightly disparaging comment from yours truly about one of his (then) Somerset colleagues! Just as we don't want his self belief to crumble as a result of England's badly handled treatment, it's important he listens to the right people and works at his game.

If Moeen is out of the equation as seems likely and many want, Bess is the most obvious bowler (spin or seam) to bat at 8. That's a significant batting position in Tests and of potential real value. Remember back to the worth Shaun Pollock brought to South Africa as probably the prime example. In this Test the hosts have it nailed. Sundar at 8 with Ashwin and Axar either side of him who wouldn't be out of place there either. Bess may not ever be the batsman as those just mentioned (although his Test average of 26 is only 2 less than Ashwin's) and, yes, his place in the Test side must be justified by his bowling but it would be helpful to not have the tail beginning at 8 or to have to play an extra batsman in a disjointed side to avoid it.

Guessing you are playing today. Wishing you a couple of wickets at least. thumbsup

by guildfordbat Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:12 am

KP_fan wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:6 more to go....Eng are already thinking HOME and the flight back to Family, dogs, Cool spring

https://celebs.infoseemedia.com/jonny-bairstow/jonny-bairstow-with-his-pet-dog/

Barstow during break I heard from Swann

Someone would choose to listen to Swann during a break?!

Slightly more seriously, what's the view in India of Swann as a commentator? Most here feel he's dreadful as he just never shuts up.

by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:18 am

In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:34 am

Lovely take by Rahane at slip, all works towards the tipping competition Smile

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:34 am

Very modest and honest of Rahane thumbsup

3 more to go

by king_carlos Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:37 am

Soul Requiem wrote:In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.

Surran as well. Woakes more of a seamer and Curran a swing bowler. Horses for courses in that 8 spot at home I'd guess.

England's issue (as ever) is that neither of those bowlers who are excellent at home will be up to much with the kookaburra in the Ashes. England will need to get Stone (or our talented pace bowler AN Other) Test chances over the summer to prepare for that series down under.

by guildfordbat Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:38 am

Soul Requiem wrote:In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.

Hi Soul - I actually forgot Woakes. Bit like the selectors. Wink

Yeah, he would certainly fit at 8 but not too many other options. As I posted about Bess and all others, his bowling would need to justify it. At home - and also in New Zealand as you astutely say - it might although I get the impression that the Test selectors aren't entirely sure about him.

by king_carlos Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:41 am

Foakes goes now. I'm a massive fan of his and he's a glorious gloveman but I wouldn't say he's grabbed his chance over these 3 Tests.

England once again short of a fifty partnership. 71 consecutive partnerships without reaching fifty. Painful.

This series feels like parallels to the last India tour in England. The touring side won a single Test and have had the odd opportunity to snatch other opportunities but the home sides class in their conditions has won out over the series.

Ashwin and Axar, Rohit and Pant have just been too good for this England team.

by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:45 am

king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.
Surran as well. Woakes more of a seamer and Curran a swing bowler. Horses for courses in that 8 spot at home I'd guess.

England's issue (as ever) is that neither of those bowlers who are excellent at home will be up to much with the kookaburra in the Ashes. England will need to get Stone (or our talented pace bowler AN Other) Test chances over the summer to prepare for that series down under.

I'd be picking Woakes over Surran every time myself, better with both ball and bat, his home record is sublime. I actually think Sam swings the ball too much most of the time and needs to work on a bit subtlety.

Overseas is a problem but then not many teams have a fourth seamer capable of batting in the top 5. In Australia and South Africa is where Bess becomes a more viable option at 8 for me.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:47 am

Guildford wrote:. Someone would choose to listen to Swann during a break?!

Of the 3 english commentators in this series
Swann to me is better than Butcher (unintentionally comic) , knight ( unintentionally partisan)
Swann is a bit full of himself but his comments are insightful, ie how a fairly modern international cricketer thinks durigng games.
And reveals the stromg mind he had as a cricketer..
A poor man's Warne

by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:50 am

king_carlos wrote:
This series feels like parallels to the last India tour in England. The touring side won a single Test and have had the odd opportunity to snatch other opportunities but the home sides class in their conditions has won out over the series.

Ashwin and Axar, Rohit and Pant have just been too good for this England team.

I genuinely think England can win 4-0 come the summer. I'm expecting a series of low scoring (sub 300) matches which England excel at where Anderson, Broad and Woakes should rip through that Indian batting line up. The top three in home conditions should dull the new ball enough to allow the middle order to score.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:53 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.
Surran as well. Woakes more of a seamer and Curran a swing bowler. Horses for courses in that 8 spot at home I'd guess.

England's issue (as ever) is that neither of those bowlers who are excellent at home will be up to much with the kookaburra in the Ashes. England will need to get Stone (or our talented pace bowler AN Other) Test chances over the summer to prepare for that series down under.

I'd be picking Woakes over Surran every time myself, better with both ball and bat, his home record is sublime. I actually think Sam swings the ball too much most of the time and needs to work on a bit subtlety.

Overseas is a problem but then not many teams have a fourth seamer capable of batting in the top 5. In Australia and South Africa is where Bess becomes a more viable option at 8 for me.

Think that’s what the summer is for Leach...proving he is a good enough spinner in non helpful conditions (ie. where he just needs to hold an end and pick up the odd wicket), that picking him makes more sense than the better batting option who can bowl spin at 8 (ie. Bess or Moeen).
Of course, Bess could also improve his bowling and take the spot himself, ahead of the Ashes in the winter. One subplot for the coming months!

by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:56 am

king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.
Surran as well. Woakes more of a seamer and Curran a swing bowler. Horses for courses in that 8 spot at home I'd guess.

England's issue (as ever) is that neither of those bowlers who are excellent at home will be up to much with the kookaburra in the Ashes. England will need to get Stone (or our talented pace bowler AN Other) Test chances over the summer to prepare for that series down under.

Pick the best players for the home tests and maximise the chance of winning both series. Kiwis over two tests will be a tough assignment, especially with possible absences, but England will be favourites in the five-match series against India, as long as they pick their best side for the conditions, which will likely include Woakes and Curran at some point.

England don't have the slightest chance of winning a series in Australia, and I wouldn't want them to jeopardise their chances of winning the two home series just so they can give preparation games to other bowlers.

by king_carlos Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:14 am

Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:In home tests and in theory in New Zealand too, Chris Woakes is the obvious choice at 8 with Leach at 9 plus whoever.
Surran as well. Woakes more of a seamer and Curran a swing bowler. Horses for courses in that 8 spot at home I'd guess.

England's issue (as ever) is that neither of those bowlers who are excellent at home will be up to much with the kookaburra in the Ashes. England will need to get Stone (or our talented pace bowler AN Other) Test chances over the summer to prepare for that series down under.

Pick the best players for the home tests and maximise the chance of winning both series. Kiwis over two tests will be a tough assignment, especially with possible absences, but England will be favourites in the five-match series against India, as long as they pick their best side for the conditions, which will likely include Woakes and Curran at some point.

England don't have the slightest chance of winning a series in Australia, and I wouldn't want them to jeopardise their chances of winning the two home series just so they can give preparation games to other bowlers.

I think the Australia side does have weaknesses. Warner has been struggling leaving Smith and Labuschagne holding the batting together. They didn't seem to trust a 4th seamer in the India series (which India won with a depleted lineup) hence Cummins, Hazlewood and Starc (who are excellent I admit) being bowled into the ground.

I also think more of the batsman England have are better suited to those conditions. If we can get the pace attack right there are chances there. Though Australia are favourites.

I'm not suggesting picking an attack not suited to English conditions. Actually suggesting picking the same setup they have recently at home with one of Broad or Anderson, a bowling all rounder at 8 and a pace bowler. I just hope that Stone gets chances in that pace bowler spot.

8.Woakes/Curran 9.Leach 10.Pace 11.Anderson/Broad

by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:16 am

Lawrence has had a decent tour despite being prematurely dropped, big questions around the batting line up come the summer.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:16 am

1 MORE to go

by king_carlos Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:17 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
This series feels like parallels to the last India tour in England. The touring side won a single Test and have had the odd opportunity to snatch other opportunities but the home sides class in their conditions has won out over the series.

Ashwin and Axar, Rohit and Pant have just been too good for this England team.

I genuinely think England can win 4-0 come the summer. I'm expecting a series of low scoring (sub 300) matches which England excel at where Anderson, Broad and Woakes should rip through that Indian batting line up. The top three in home conditions should dull the new ball enough to allow the middle order to score.

England's seamers will bowl very well at home, that should be guaranteed. I reckon the India seamers are capable of that as well though. Bumrah, Ishant, Yadav, Shami and Siraj is a good stable of seamers. Add in Pandya as a bowling all rounder. The England batsman will be under plenty of pressure which they haven't dealt well with in recent times.

by KP_fan Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:19 am

All over...sadly one sided but inevitable end

Eng's Limit of skill exposed again with baall turning and spinners in tandem

by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:24 am

Nearly at the end now. Two below-par batting efforts undermined any serious chance in this test, though England were probably one bit of luck away from making this test interesting.

Has been a better than expected winter, results-wise. Three wins from six. Better than I anticipated before the winter started, and two of those losses came on sub-standard lottery pitches which England need not feel any shame over. Performance-wise, only one real strong performance all winter and that was in the first test of this series. The Sri Lankan games were acceptable efforts from England, even if they were gifted wins to some extent. Leach has underlined his position as England's number one spinner. We've seen Root maybe turn a corner form-wise. Anderson's still the master. And plenty of promise with Crawley, Foakes and Lawrence showing their capabilities. It is time to move on from Moeen and Bess, and Burns must be on his last life by now. Archer's injuries are a big concern.

And there is the end.

Should be a good test summer. England will be strong favourites at home to India. The Kiwi series really could go in any direction - to be honest, I think it's a shame the number of matches for those series isn't reversed, I'd love to see England take on New Zealand in a lengthy series.

But before all that it's a long-old T20 series, starting on Friday.

by alfie Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:24 am

Got home at 70/6 which was about what I expected...in truth this game was over last night : that last two hours buried England and I was not surprised India got the 160 lead.(Close at one time though: reckon if Pant had been given out last over before tea England might have been batting last night . Though that would probably have meant they'd be all out by lunch today Smile

)

Had hoped they'd bat better than this but honestly I reckon most of them are mentally shot by now - Lawrence seems the exception, he's playing well. (Not getting carried away mind. Specialist number seven bat isn't a regular available spot . But it's a big improvement on his form in Chennai)

We can pick everything to death - and doubtless will - over the next few weeks/months. But suffice to say India at home are just way too good for this England team. They can take heart from winning one game and doing better than the previous tour , at least.

But I do fear the evidence of these matches is that England is , right now , a poor fourth to India , NZ and Australia as a Test Team. If we divide the Test scene into three divisions , they are in the relegation spot. Clearly better than SA , WI , Sri Lanka and Pakistan - but not good enough to take on the big boys. Maybe that's too gloomy ; but I reckon a look at the individual records of the players suggests that my pre-tour thought remains correct : England have just four true Test class players (Root , Stokes, Anderson and Broad) and in Asia one of them generally doesn't play. The rest are "nearly" good enough , or too new to tell. With the likelihood that Broad and Anderson won't be around for ever it's a slightly depressing outlook.

Hopefully enough of the new boys will develop fast and prove me totally wrong , and soon. But for now I'm not expecting much more than being good at home - and they'll need to be this summer as India are definitely improving on their touring skills (as we saw in Australia).

As for this series India have just wrapped up their deserved innings win and all credit to them. clap

Pleased to see Lawrence got his fifty ; happy that Leach had a useful series with the ball...but other than that it's been downhill all the way since game one...tough place to tour !

At least my club side won their semi today Smile

by king_carlos Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:27 am

The slow death comes to an end. Before the series I wouldn't have considered 3-1 a bad result given how strong India are at home. Having won T1 it feels rather deflating though.

Ashwin and Axar were magnificent throughout. Rohit was the best batsman on show across the series. Pant is one hell of a cricketer. Those would be my takeaways.

Congratulations to India. By far the better side.

by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:32 am

Duty281 wrote:Should be a good test summer. England will be strong favourites at home to India. The Kiwi series really could go in any direction - to be honest, I think it's a shame the number of matches for those series isn't reversed, I'd love to see England take on New Zealand in a lengthy series.

Just a further note on that. By the end of the summer, England will have played India in 32 tests since the start of 2011. The number for New Zealand will be just 13.

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