Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

That's not a high tackle. Heyes initial contact is the chest. If you're going to review it, review it properly. It's a legal tackle.

How did the assistant miss that the LI player knocks the ball out of JVP's hands and into touch before the Joseph break. It was right in front of him FFS. Lineout Tigers.

Anyway, Tigers blow what should have been a straightforward win and only get 4 instead of 5 points. LI manage to snatch 2 league points with a TBP at the death. Probably a fair result as LI were the better side in the first half but didn't really show up in the second. Hassell-Collins is looking like a really classy player, shame Parton went off.

Nasty looking injury for Aaron Morris there. He's been really good for Quins lately. Such a shame.

Quins down to 13 men for 7:30 mins with Dombrandt binned as well. Saints have a great chance to come back here.

This sin bin period has been dire from Saints. That attacking game they built under Boyd early in his tenure has really broken down.

Saints blew that massively - zero points with a 2 man advantage for seven and a half minutes ...

king_carlos wrote:This sin bin period has been dire from Saints. That attacking game they built under Boyd early in his tenure has really broken down.

There is really no cohesive attacking or defensive game under Boyd. This is sad to say, but true. Saints had a nice little run of wins, but in essence are playing the same as was so bad in 2020. Not saying Saints have the same talent as Quins, but a coaching change can make a big difference. Something has to happen and we can't fire all the players. The final straw was not scoring when Quins were down to 13 men. And the mistakes are simply too basic.

https://inews.co.uk/news/hmrc-probes-english-rugbys-leading-clubs-over-salary-payments-904255

HMRC are investigating the 12 Premiership clubs and Sarries over potential unpaid tax due to overvaluing image rights. The similar probe into football resulted in players and agents having to pay out a lot (as in a lot, a lot) in unpaid taxes.

There were rumours that a significant proportion of the enormous deal Itoje signed with Sarries fell outside the cap due to the very high valuing of his image rights. Itoje is probably the most marketable rugby player in England these days and perhaps second only to Wilkinson in the history of the game in England, so his case may be slightly different to others but if all the clubs have been overvaluing image rights to an extent this could have knock on effects for the salary cap.

Without getting political I'd expect HMRC to be probing everything they can possibly think of at the government's insistence (well other than offshore tax havens...). The Tories have promised to significantly increase Corporation Tax a year out from an election, they will not want to actually do this and would to be able to spin their way out of it. Therefore expect numerous witch hunts to try and claw back any tax they can from sources not linked to their own personal wealth (see earlier point re tax havens). Expect also attempts to stimulate the economy in the hope that an earlier than forecast pick up will allow additional tax collection instead of the CT increase.

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:This sin bin period has been dire from Saints. That attacking game they built under Boyd early in his tenure has really broken down.

There is really no cohesive attacking or defensive game under Boyd.  This is sad to say, but true.  Saints had a nice little run of wins, but in essence are playing the same as was so bad in 2020.  Not saying Saints have the same talent as Quins, but a coaching change can make a big difference.  Something has to happen and we can't fire all the players.  The final straw was not scoring when Quins were down to 13 men.  And the mistakes are simply too basic.

Apparently the solution is to fire your DoR and hand day to day control over to a bunch of young coaches and the senior players. At least, it's worked for us.

I had a lot of time for Gustard as a coach, but as a newish DoR it looks like he made the mistake of trying to control too many aspects of the gameplan rather than give the players some responsibility (perhaps something he learned from Eddie?). Since he left, the coaches have made a point of asking the leaders in the squad to take responsibility and it has worked very well so far.

It reminds me of something that Pat Lam said after Bristol came back to hammer Quins in the second half. He apparently pointed to the changing room door and told his players that if they weren't going to put into practice what they had practiced, they could find the bus that way. Not angrily, but just asking them to take responsibility for their own performances. The Quins coaching staff seem to have done the same thing, and it's paying off.

Leicester Tigers (v Gloucester Rugby, away, Saturday 3.00pm)
[club appearances in brackets]

15 Freddie Steward [22]

14 Kobus Van Wyk [8]

13 Matías Moroni [7]

12 Dan Kelly [8]

11 Kini Murimurivalu [11]

10 Zack Henry [17]

9 Richard Wigglesworth [7]

1 Luan de Bruin [7]

2 Tom Youngs (c) [205]

3 Dan Cole [253]

4 Harry Wells [111]

5 Calum Green [52]

6 Cyle Brink [10]

7 Tommy Reffell [37]

8 Hanro Liebenberg [24]

Replacements

16 Charlie Clare [21]

17 Nephi Leatigaga [40]

18 Joe Heyes [58]

19 Tomás Lavanini [27]

20 Ollie Chessum [6]

21 Jack Van Poortvliet [13]

22 Johnny McPhillips [14]

23 Guy Porter [12]

Fairly chunky bench from Tigers. I can see us going increasingly direct as the game goes on.

Not sure about young Kelly at 12 he didn't make the much yardage against Bristol. I think he might be better off at 13 where he can get that outside arc going. He is only young though so we'll see.

Gloucester Rugby

15. Kyle Moyle

14. Charlie Sharples *

13. Tom Seabrook *

12. Billy Twelvetrees

11. Santiago Carreras

10. George Barton *

9. Willi Heinz

 

1. Alex Seville *

2. Santiago Socino

3. Jack Stanley

4. Ed Slater

5. Matias Alemanno

6. Jordy Reid

7. Lewis Ludlow (c) *

8. Ruan Ackermann

 

16. Henry Walker *

17. Jamal Ford-Robinson

18. Fraser Balmain

19. Alex Craig *

20. Jack Clement *

21. Charlie Chapman*

22. Henry Trinder *

23. Matt Banahan

Looking at that Glaws team I'm hoping for rain and scrums.

Is Ben Morgan injured again? I thought I saw him back a few weeks ago.

Falcons

15 Tom Penny
14 Alex Tait
13 George Wacokecoke
12 Luther Burrell
11 Mateo Carreras
10 Joel Hodgson
9 Michael Young (captain)

1 Trevor Davison
2 George McGuigan
3 Mark Tampin
4 Greg Peterson
5 Darren Barry
6 Gary Graham
7 Philip van der Walt
8 Callum Chick

Replacements

16 Charlie Maddison
17 Kyle Cooper
18 Logovi'i Mulipola
19 Sean Robinson
20 John Hardie
21 Sam Stuart
22 Brett Connon
23 Joel Matavesi

Bath team for Falcons

15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Josh Matavesi, 11. Ruaridh McConnochie, 10. Rhys Priestland, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Josh McNally , 5. Elliott Stooke, 6. Miles Reid, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

REPLACEMENTS
16. Jack Walker, 17. Arthur Cordwell, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Tom Ellis, 20. Ethan Staddon, 21. Ollie Fox, 22. Tian Schoeman, 23. Semesa Rokoduguni

Shame Falcons haven't got one of their rapid wingers available to replace Tait. Otherwise that looks an exciting backline. Hopefully the game stays dry so both backlines are let off the leash a bit.

Bath's bench looks a bit patchy as well so could see Falcons grind them down late on.

Hooper out

TightHEAD wrote:Hooper out

again?

100% English Northampton team is not something you see often these days. Dingwall, Painter and Sleightholme the main guys to look out for?

I'd hope that Tigers can do well against that Gloucester lineup. A definite advantage in the front row and I really fancy the Tigers back three against Gloucester's depleted options there.

I'm a bit surprised to see Dan Kelly preferred to Jaco Taute if Matt Scott is injured but I actually like that selection. Wigglesworth partnering Henry is experience with potential. Similar with Moroni and Kelly. It's what I've wanted to see more of from Tigers for a long time.

George Barton looks a classy player so I'm excited to see how he gets on.

That Bath back row is a really tasty one. Mercer and Reid are in form whilst Underhill is class. Great to see Henry Thomas playing as well.

I’m wondering if we had to give Rowlands back this weekend, or did we just rotate?

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m wondering if we had to give Rowlands back this weekend, or did we just rotate?

Don't think you had to. I presume Pivac wanted him to keep match fit. He's playing like a player trying to prove something. Needs to be careful as he's playing on the edge. Managed to stop one rolling maul close in really nicely but got pinged at one shortly after. Wasps discipline was good at the start but they're on a warning just before half time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:15 George Furbank
14 Tommy Freeman
13 Fraser Dingwall
12 Piers Francis
11 Ollie Sleightholme
10 James Grayson
9 Tom James
1 Alex Waller (c)
2 Reece Marshall
3 Ehren Painter
4 Alex Moon
5 Alex Coles
6 Tom Wood
7 Lewis Ludlam (c)
8 Teimana Harrison
Replacements:
16 Mike Haywood
17 Nick Auterac
18 Paul Hill
19 Api Ratuniyarawa
20 JJ Tonks
21 Henry Taylor
22 Rory Hutchinson
23 Harry Mallinder
All English in the first 15 but looks a mixture of youthful potential and mediocrity. Should help ensure they get the credits from the RFU though.

Even better is that 13 of the starting 15 have come through Saints academy.  And 16 of the full 23.  
Only non-EQ in the full 23 are Hutchinson and Api.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:15 George Furbank
14 Tommy Freeman
13 Fraser Dingwall
12 Piers Francis
11 Ollie Sleightholme
10 James Grayson
9 Tom James
1 Alex Waller (c)
2 Reece Marshall
3 Ehren Painter
4 Alex Moon
5 Alex Coles
6 Tom Wood
7 Lewis Ludlam (c)
8 Teimana Harrison
Replacements:
16 Mike Haywood
17 Nick Auterac
18 Paul Hill
19 Api Ratuniyarawa
20 JJ Tonks
21 Henry Taylor
22 Rory Hutchinson
23 Harry Mallinder
All English in the first 15 but looks a mixture of youthful potential and mediocrity. Should help ensure they get the credits from the RFU though.

Even better is that 13 of the starting 15 have come through Saints academy.  And 16 of the full 23.  
Only non-EQ in the full 23 are Hutchinson and Api.

Until Dingwall decides he's scottish

Dunn scores again. Should be Cowan Dickies backup for England.

George should be playing in the championship.

Great try from Bath Dunn again!

TightHEAD wrote:Dunn scores again. Should be Cowan Dickies backup for England.

George should be playing in the championship.

I'd like to see him on the summer tour as captain for a young and inexperienced England squad. He deserves the chance to show his leadership, he's unlucky to have got so few minutes in an England shirt.

Think Smith,Care and Marler would make a big difference to the England team, a close win by Ex

rosbif wrote:Think Smith,Care and Marler would make a big difference to the England team, a  close win by Ex

Care would be better than Robson but at 34 there's no future in keep picking him. Marler wants to spend more time at home, he's ruled himself out. Smith, yes and hopefully he gets a chance on the summer tour though I'm not convinced he's better than Ford and Eddie will never drop Farrell.

Just reading through the commentary, Saints v Sale sounds a bit of a kickfest. Saints lineout is malfunctioning badly, but Sale keep feeding Freeman and Furbank and with Grayson back in the side, are just pushing them back into their own 22. Freeman sounds like he is having a hell of a game.

8 - 0 to Saints at half time,

Were bath good though or were we appalling bad...I pick the latter...

Only watched the first half GF and it looked like tackling was optional for the Falcons. Discipline wasn't great. Only real stand out was your winger the Argentinian 7s guy, wow the feet on him. Penny at 15 looks a tidy player for you as well so when you get Radwan back that's a very tidy back three.

Well Tigers win but we didn't half try and give it away to Glaws in that second half. Not much quality in the last 10 minutes from either side.

Wish they had - I had Glaws by 1 on Superbru

Heaf wrote:Wish they had - I had Glaws by 1 on Superbru

Gloucester spent the last 10 minutes failing to win the game by a point. Tigers certainly tried to tee them up with some unnecessary penalties and errors.

Quick aside for the Championship ref we had. He needs a promotion, consistent and vocal in a firm but not condescending way. Much better than some of the Prem refs we've seen this season. Not perfect or Barnes level but his consistency meant a lot more playing (albeit largely ineffectively) and a lot less whistling.

Saints squeaked out a very odd win at home against Northern Transvaal (oops, I mean Sale).  Saints had minimal possession and spent most of the 1st half defending inside their 22, but somehow were ahead 8-0 at half time.  I am still surprised Sale couldn't get over the line.  Sale's attack was not terribly inspired.

But their possession started to tell in the 2nd half when they scored two tries.  But Saints had just enough with three pens to take an uncomfortable 3 point win.  And importantly for Saints actually held on for the win which is something they have been particularly poor doing.  How Saints are 5th on the log defies logic, or at least the eye test.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

rosbif wrote:Think Smith,Care and Marler would make a big difference to the England team, a  close win by Ex

Care would be better than Robson but at 34 there's no future in keep picking him. Marler wants to spend more time at home, he's ruled himself out. Smith, yes and hopefully he gets a chance on the summer tour though I'm not convinced he's better than Ford and Eddie will never drop Farrell.

Marler’s wife is expecting their 4th child, I think, and being with the squad would mean being away from home for 2 months under COVID rules. I don’t think he’s necessarily done with international rugby yet, and it’s not as if Genge has made himself a clear selection.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

rosbif wrote:Think Smith,Care and Marler would make a big difference to the England team, a  close win by Ex

Care would be better than Robson but at 34 there's no future in keep picking him. Marler wants to spend more time at home, he's ruled himself out. Smith, yes and hopefully he gets a chance on the summer tour though I'm not convinced he's better than Ford and Eddie will never drop Farrell.

Marler’s wife is expecting their 4th child, I think, and being with the squad would mean being away from home for 2 months under COVID rules. I don’t think he’s necessarily done with international rugby yet, and it’s not as if Genge has made himself a clear selection.

In the club matches I have seen, Marler looks very good. I agree, he is likely not done Internationally, just prioritising his family first. Good man.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

rosbif wrote:Think Smith,Care and Marler would make a big difference to the England team, a  close win by Ex

Care would be better than Robson but at 34 there's no future in keep picking him. Marler wants to spend more time at home, he's ruled himself out. Smith, yes and hopefully he gets a chance on the summer tour though I'm not convinced he's better than Ford and Eddie will never drop Farrell.

Marler’s wife is expecting their 4th child, I think, and being with the squad would mean being away from home for 2 months under COVID rules. I don’t think he’s necessarily done with international rugby yet, and it’s not as if Genge has made himself a clear selection.

Not the first time Marler has ruled himself out for family reasons and I agree wholeheartedly with him. Family comes first. If the missus is about to have your fourth during lockdown then you need to be at home more than anything else. Being on tour down in SA for about two months isn't likely to see him available for the Lions nor can I see him wanting to go to the States this summer with a little one at home. Marler and Vunipola will be 33/32 by the next world cup as well so you can see Eddie wanting to keep developing Genge and Obano who will be 27/28 at the next world cup and in theory in their prime.

Miracle win by LI when you look at the stats plus the horribly one-sided officiating ... 35 tackles by Blair Cowan - yes 35!

Heaf wrote:Miracle win by LI when you look at the stats plus the horribly one-sided officiating ... 35 tackles by Blair Cowan - yes 35!

Definitely have to watch this later.  I just peeked at the stats and the London Irish tackle count is unheard of!
35 Cowan
27 Brophy-Clews
25 Rogerson
24 Simmons
23 Mafi
20 Jackson
19 Goodrick-Clarke
16 Hoskins (he was a second half sub!)
Irish made over 300 tackles.  If I didn't see this in black and white I would swear it couldn't happen at this level.

I saw it in colour and it definitely happened

doctor_grey wrote:

Heaf wrote:Miracle win by LI when you look at the stats plus the horribly one-sided officiating ... 35 tackles by Blair Cowan - yes 35!

Definitely have to watch this later.  I just peeked at the stats and the London Irish tackle count is unheard of!
35 Cowan
27 Brophy-Clews
25 Rogerson
24 Simmons
23 Mafi
20 Jackson
19 Goodrick-Clarke
16 Hoskins (he was a second half sub!)
Irish made over 300 tackles.  If I didn't see this in black and white I would swear it couldn't happen at this level.

Looking at the stats it says 237 rucks. That is 3/minute

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Heaf wrote:Miracle win by LI when you look at the stats plus the horribly one-sided officiating ... 35 tackles by Blair Cowan - yes 35!

Definitely have to watch this later.  I just peeked at the stats and the London Irish tackle count is unheard of!
35 Cowan
27 Brophy-Clews
25 Rogerson
24 Simmons
23 Mafi
20 Jackson
19 Goodrick-Clarke
16 Hoskins (he was a second half sub!)
Irish made over 300 tackles.  If I didn't see this in black and white I would swear it couldn't happen at this level.

Looking at the stats it says 237 rucks. That is 3/minute

According to ESPN Worcester won 180 out of 181 rucks! These numbers get increasingly crazier. LI committed 16 pens, whilst Worcester only 3.
I absolutely have to watch this evening.

Note sure the ruck stat is right but take a note of how many rucks they won by sealing off or coming in the side or holding on, but not getting pinged. Also they were often hanging around on the wrong side in the way of the LI 9 without getting pinged, but the LI 10 got done for a Wuss player falling over him when he was getting up 3m away from the ruck.

The last knock-on call in the game against LI was indicative of the officiating, ball knocked out of LI player's hands by Wuss player, went backwards relative to LI player, but scrum awarded to Wuss. Several replays showed it clearly but TMO struck dumb suddenly after chiming in against LI all match.

Given this and all the stats I still can't believe they won.

PS whilst you're checking out records, the last pen by Paddy Jackson must be close in terms of distance ...

Heaf wrote:Miracle win by LI when you look at the stats plus the horribly one-sided officiating ... 35 tackles by Blair Cowan - yes 35!

Shame Lieke Pearce has been improving recently, I have hopes he's going to mature into a really top ref. If I remember rightly Graham Hughes is the TMO that decides to chirp whenever he feels like it but not consistently.

Yep 'Hughesie' was the TMO - even tried to question an Irish try (when not asked by the ref) but then stopped himself ...

I agree Pearce seemed to be getting better but IMO he had a shocker today - of course I'm biased but I can cite plenty of examples without even trying so I don't think I'm being unfair on this occasion.

Pearce certainly let a lot of players hit the rucks from the side. Was really surprised he let a lot of that go.

Newcastle Falcons team to face Wasps
Friday, 7.45pm, Kingston Park Stadium, live on BT Sport 1

15 Tom Penny
14 Mateo Carreras
13 George Wacokecoke
12 Luther Burrell
11 Ben Stevenson
10 Joel Hodgson
9 Michael Young (captain)

1 Trevor Davison
2 George McGuigan
3 Logovi'i Mulipola
4 Greg Peterson
5 Marco Fuser
6 Sean Robinson
7 Will Welch
8 Philip van der Walt

Replacements
16 Jamie Blamire
17 Kyle Cooper
18 Mark Tampin
19 Will Montgomery
20 Callum Chick
21 Louis Schreuder
22 Brett Connon
23 Alex Tait

Wasps

Rob Miller, Zach Kibirige, Malakai Fekitoa, Michael Le Bourgeois, Josh Bassett, Jimmy Gopperth, Sam Wolstenholme;
Ben Harris, Tommy Taylor, Kieran Brookes, Joe Launchbury (c), Will Rowlands, Brad Shields, Thomas Young, Sione Vailanu

Replacements

Gabriel Oghre, Tom West, Jeff Toomaga-Allen, Theo Vukasinovic, Alfie Barbeary, Ben Vellacott, Charlie Atkinson, Matteo Minozzi