LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

mikey_dragon wrote:It's 2017 all over again, we got the AWJ-haters out in full force! It's now 2021 and not an ounce of his world classness is dented .

So if you don't rate AWJ that makes you a hater but if you do rate him that therefore makes you a lover?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:It's 2017 all over again, we got the AWJ-haters out in full force! It's now 2021 and not an ounce of his world classness is dented .

Indeed, hes still not world class! There's some movement though, LD wants him in this time.

I wanted him in every other time as well.

Not in the team on the last tour though, is what i meant.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:It's 2017 all over again, we got the AWJ-haters out in full force! It's now 2021 and not an ounce of his world classness is dented .

Indeed, hes still not world class! There's some movement though, LD wants him in this time.

I wanted him in every other time as well.

Not in the team on the last tour though, is what i meant.

Yes I did.

I did come to an agreement with someone though, that if he should not be there, then who should.

Wynn Jones is one of only 7 B&I Lions to have experienced wins v Australia, NZ and SA for the Lions. Who are the others?

Im guessing if selected he will also be the first player in a very long time to go on four tours.

Collapse2005 wrote:If AWJ isnt world class I dont know who is. The guy has been consistently brilliant for many years. The consistency he has showed over the years is staggering. He has played something like 15 years for Wales and this will be his 4th Lions tour if selected. Some guy, I applaud him and reckon he is one of the greatest six nations players. 157 international caps and still going strong.

Longevity doesn't mean class it just means longevity.

There are of course benefits. Experience is a big deal and it is quite something lasting so long in what can be such a physically demanding game. He's also been the absolute center of the Welsh pack for a ridiculous amount of time and is an immensely important player for Wales. It doesn't mean that he would have had an equivalent career for any other 6N team (or would not have to be fair). There is also a question mark over Wales' ability to generate decent challengers.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:It's 2017 all over again, we got the AWJ-haters out in full force! It's now 2021 and not an ounce of his world classness is dented .

Indeed, hes still not world class! There's some movement though, LD wants him in this time.

I wanted him in every other time as well.

Not in the team on the last tour though, is what i meant.

Yes I did.

I did come to an agreement with someone though, that if he should not be there, then who should.

Not sure your recollection is correct, literally read through a thread yesterday. I'll bring it back from the dead though if it helps?

e.g. beshocked wrote:Not sure how anyone can think AWJ is the form pick though.

Lord Dowlais wrote Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:35 pm: Why are our English members constantly bringing this up when we are all agreeing on it ? We are not debating AWJ, we all agree, he should not be there.

With regards to the term world class, to me it means being in the conversation for inclusion in a world 23. I don't think that has ever applied to AWJ, a very good player no doubt but I don't think he's ever reached the next level; the level that Retallick, Whitelock, Etzebeth or De Jager have or did operate at.

Collapse2005 wrote:Wynn Jones is one of only 7 B&I Lions to have experienced wins v Australia, NZ and SA for the Lions. Who are the others?

Im guessing if selected he will also be the first player in a very long time to go on four tours.

He is the only player ever to play in 9 consecutive Lions test matches.

Collapse2005 wrote:Wynn Jones is one of only 7 B&I Lions to have experienced wins v Australia, NZ and SA for the Lions. Who are the others?

Martin Johnson, Jeremy Guscott?

Ieuan Evans?

LordDowlais wrote:...Lets instead pick a player, who does not captain his club, never mind his country, who rubs the officials up the wrong way because he is strong. Yep he is just the man for the job...

That describes Martin Johnson in 1997. It seemed to work out well enough with him.

With regard to POC and Warb, it feels like they know what AWJ can bring to the role but have gone for Farrell and Itoje on the basis if they play to their potential, they'll deliver more. I won't feel aggrieved if Gatland goes with AWJ. Not only is it is a justifiable choice, Gatland seems like the kind of man who would be prepared to drop his captain if it isn't getting results.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:...Lets instead pick a player, who does not captain his club, never mind his country, who rubs the officials up the wrong way because he is strong. Yep he is just the man for the job...

That describes Martin Johnson in 1997. It seemed to work out well enough with him.

With regard to POC and Warb, it feels like they know what AWJ can bring to the role but have gone for Farrell and Itoje on the basis if they play to their potential, they'll deliver more. I won't feel aggrieved if Gatland goes with AWJ. Not only is it is a justifiable choice, Gatland seems like the kind of man who would be prepared to drop his captain if it isn't getting results.

At least Martin Johnson was a captain. Albeit a very novice one.

LordDowlais wrote:If he starts as captain over AWJ I will eat my hat.

A pork pie hat, or do we get to choose?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If he starts as captain over AWJ I will eat my hat.

A pork pie hat, or do we get to choose?

In the unlikely event, I would have to go for one of the nacho hats.

LordDowlais wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:...Lets instead pick a player, who does not captain his club, never mind his country, who rubs the officials up the wrong way because he is strong. Yep he is just the man for the job...

That describes Martin Johnson in 1997. It seemed to work out well enough with him.

With regard to POC and Warb, it feels like they know what AWJ can bring to the role but have gone for Farrell and Itoje on the basis if they play to their potential, they'll deliver more. I won't feel aggrieved if Gatland goes with AWJ. Not only is it is a justifiable choice, Gatland seems like the kind of man who would be prepared to drop his captain if it isn't getting results.

At least Martin Johnson was a captain. Albeit a very novice one.

He had no more experience of captaincy than Itoje has now. The season after he returned from the Lions was his first as club captain. Like Itoje, he had only filled in on occasion at his club. Unlike Itoje, he had not captained his country to a Junior World Cup.

I genuinely don't care who the Captain is as long as we win. This is the Lions, not a slanging match for who's the best and who isn't. As an Englishman I am not AWJ's biggest fan, and I don't think he's the best lock for the tour. That said, his Leadership is invaluable, and if he's selected as tour Captain, that's fine by me. I've said before though that I don't think Gatland will. But then again I've never been a rugby coach so I doubt I'll second guess him anyway!

I do think Sam Warburton has a point by taking the pressure off AWJ by giving the Captaincy to someone else; but the thing to remember is that a successful Lions team will have leaders all over the pitch. AWJ will always give his utmost and will desperately do everything in his power to win. He will also provide his wealth of knowledge to whoever is Captain, should this be the case. Just because he doesn't have that "C" next to his name doesn't mean he won't be leading in some form or another.

I am also worried about AWJ picking up an injury before the tour. At 35 the speed of his recuperation won't be like that of someone in their 20s. The last thing I want to see is AWJ being taken on tour and being unable to play past the first match. The Boks know he's a Talisman so will target him. It would not be a fitting end to an exceptional career. Same if he's injured playing for his club side. Here's hoping he stays fit.

If AWJ scores the winning try in the final test, or makes the decision that wins us the series, I will be 100% supporting him. He's a Lion and when you're a Lion it doesn't matter which part of the British Isles and Ireland you're from or qualified to play for.

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/2021/03/28/alun-wyn-jones-a-champion-in-three-decades/

Shane Williams called him a freak of nature because of his ability to recover from injuries, and because of how fit his is.

LordDowlais wrote:https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/2021/03/28/alun-wyn-jones-a-champion-in-three-decades/

Shane Williams called him a freak of nature because of his ability to recover from injuries, and because of how fit his is.

Father Time catches up with everyone at some point. I'd rather he wasn't injured at all than test that! He's a great, that's without a doubt but his body will give in at some point.

Mr Bounce wrote:...the thing to remember is that a successful Lions team will have leaders all over the pitch...

You could easily choose a form Lions 23 which looks short on leadership, depending how you define the quality. A lot of potential Lions props won't take a backward step but they aren't going to be directing others on the pitch. Are any wingers captaincy material? We'll have a good deal of experience and talent in the centre but not much leadership experience. I'd trust Faletau any day at number eight but I'm not sure he's really a leader at his club.

Then again, if you just excel at what you do, then are your leadership qualities important? I'm sure the Boks are happy enough with Cheslin Kolbe without wondering if he'd make a good captain.

One of the advantages of a good captain, is that everyone else can chip in, or zone out, knowing the leader will make the right calls. A good captain makes it seem like there are lot of other leaders on the pitch because everyone gets the opportunity to do what they do best.

A captain is much more than a good player, much more than an inspirational figure through action or oral skills, a captain might necessarily not win you a game but he certainly can lose it, e.g. Farrell is a great player, an inspirational player by actions but in my mind when the chips are down, he glazes over and just cannot see that the Plan A is not working and even worse doesn't know if there is a Plan B let alone implement it. Itoje has never taken those "chips are down moments" and told his captain "lets do this", he just hasn't got the capacity to do it.

Whooping, smacking bums, or screaming in the opponents faces is not inspirational leadership in my mind

We all know the old adage "there are 15 leaders on the field if the game plan is working, there's only one captain on the field when it's not"

This is 2021 not 2003......You need awareness, an intellectual capacity to evolve the game as you see it, you can't rely on the coach to change it at half-time

Farrell has escaped a citing for a pretty clear red so he's still available fortunately.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell has escaped a citing for a pretty clear red so he's still available fortunately.

That was a crazy tackle. I can only assume the ref was unsighted. I know there was no TMO, but I would’ve hoped out of three officials, they may have seen that.

He is not doing much to correct the impression people have of him making tackles like that.

That reputation could well catch up with him sooner or later

BigGee wrote:He is not doing much to correct the impression people have of him making tackles like that.

That reputation could well catch up with him sooner or later

Not if he continuously gets away with it.

The first 1 in a long time hes got away with. He got a red against wasps so would have probably had a ban ruling him out of the tour of it had been cited.

Raises the issues around citing again though. Unless its clocked by the media during or after the game incidents like this are rarely reviewed.not sure what citing officers actually do.

Chris Ashton must wish he had some of Farrell's luck. He got sent off for a tip tackle in a pre-season match which derailed his attempt to get back into the England team. Jones seemed all set to include him in his 2018 autum internationals squad but he got banned, and missed out.

RiscaGame wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell has escaped a citing for a pretty clear red so he's still available fortunately.

That was a crazy tackle. I can only assume the ref was unsighted. I know there was no TMO, but I would’ve hoped out of three officials, they may have seen that.

It was a shocker. He's had years to work on his technique, and it hasn't improved at all. It doesn't say much for his adaptability.

How can a clearly intelligent player go neck-high, in the current climate?

Just wondering how he keeps getting away with it? I don't dislike Farrell but when he has an average year, he finds himself on the world POTY shortlist (the years where I think he's been good he did not get shortlisted). Guy has some awesome luck, he even found a money-man to invest in all his businesses...

Keeps getting away with it? First time he has I think if we're talking reds?

As I said there's an underlying issue with people getting away with it and the citing system is iffy. Sinckler and Jonny Williams got away with red card offences in the 6 nations, unless it gets enough traction through the media it seems a very hit and miss process.

Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

I am at a quandary with Farrell.
He epitomises so many things I admire in a rugby player, courageous, courteous, hard working, punches above his weight, skillful, intelligent, communicative, protective of his team mates, gives 100% every single minute.....perfect captain material, yet paradoxically he is a seen (during so many games over the years) to be seriously lacking in rugby nous, he is vicious thug, he is now seriously limited when his key skill (borderline massive hits) has now been taken away from him, cannot communicate at the required level with officials.
I just don't know how over the years he hasn't been red/yellow carded more.
That hit was a red card and at the top end of a ban scale , but we all know why it wasn't given......6-10 week ban and one of the media darlings would have been on the England summer tour instead of a lucrative book selling Lions campaign.

Aside from that Farrell "tackle".
https://www.ruck.co.uk/owen-farrell-gets-away-with-horror-tackle/
1.  Interesting Haskell/Tindall Lions selection
2. George North red card last year, where it was clearly unintentional/without malicious but under the laws reckless so a red, where Farrell the same can be said

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell has escaped a citing for a pretty clear red so he's still available fortunately.

That was a crazy tackle. I can only assume the ref was unsighted. I know there was no TMO, but I would’ve hoped out of three officials, they may have seen that.

It was a shocker. He's had years to work on his technique, and it hasn't improved at all. It doesn't say much for his adaptability.

How can a clearly intelligent player go neck-high, in the current climate?

Practically a carbon copy of the one on Atkinson that got him that last ban. He's lucky the Donny player is so honest and jumps back to his feet straight away, if he'd stayed down then Farrell could have been in bother. Those high speed ones, I think the refs tend to judge in outcome particularly with no TMO. Utterly moronic from Farrell, he'd have had a minimum 6 week sit down for that if he'd got the card he deserved. That would have been bye, bye Lions tour.

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

The simple reason is that people will tell you that stats don't matter. Until they want them to matter for a point they're trying to prove.

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

England Scotland was 100% on own ball for each side. I haven't seen many people call for either Vunipola or Sinckler to start, personally I think LCD is doing very well and in a vein of form though.

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

I think Sutherland has been talked up a fair bit. Hooker has been quiet but there's been injuries and I think the assumption before the 6N was that Jamie George would be wearing 2 as at the World Cup and well since the last tour he's been awesome. His meh 6N has thrown a spanner in the works and I think a bit of confusion. Fagerson's van probably stopped him from getting more recognition.

The front row is showing a huge amount of competition. Tighthead Furlong, Porter, Sinckler, Fagerson are all good options though Furlong is probably out in front. Loosehead could have had a heavy English theme if they hadn't been sub par with Mako and Genge but Wyn Jones has shown up well, Sutherland is often mentioned Healy seems to refuse to go away. Then there's potential bolters in Carre, Stuart maybe even Obano.

That's before open-field hooker selection starts.

The Oracle wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

The simple reason is that people will tell you that stats don't matter.  Until they want them to matter for a point they're trying to prove.

Let's pick purely from stats then Oracle.

formerly known as Sam wrote: That would have been bye, bye Lions tour.

Probably why he wasn't punished.

But on a serious note, we have all been talking about it on here for years, it has also been spoken about at length on various other platforms and media, his tackling is not the best, back in the day, we always used to see him getting dragged along whilst he was holding on for dear life, but he then changed his technique to this leading with the shoulder routine, and he has been getting away with murder as far as I can see for years with this technique.

Anybody with an ounce of sense can see it. I just do not know how he gets away with it so often.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

The simple reason is that people will tell you that stats don't matter.  Until they want them to matter for a point they're trying to prove.

Let's pick purely from stats then Oracle.

It's a better selection technique than 'feel'.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

England Scotland was 100% on own ball for each side. I haven't seen many people call for either Vunipola or Sinckler to start, personally I think LCD is doing very well and in a vein of form though.

Apologise youre right. But the Scittish scrum was one of the best in the 6n.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

I think Sutherland has been talked up a fair bit. Hooker has been quiet but there's been injuries and I think the assumption before the 6N was that Jamie George would be wearing 2 as at the World Cup and well since the last tour he's been awesome. His meh 6N has thrown a spanner in the works and I think a bit of confusion. Fagerson's van probably stopped him from getting more recognition.

The front row is showing a huge amount of competition. Tighthead Furlong, Porter, Sinckler, Fagerson are all good options though Furlong is probably out in front. Loosehead could have had a heavy English theme if they hadn't been sub par with Mako and Genge but Wyn Jones has shown up well, Sutherland is often mentioned Healy seems to refuse to go away. Then there's potential bolters in Carre, Stuart maybe even Obano.

That's before open-field hooker selection starts.

Those stats were with a midget srummie playing vs wales at blind side so who needs bulk in the back row!

alive555 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

England Scotland was 100% on own ball for each side. I haven't seen many people call for either Vunipola or Sinckler to start, personally I think LCD is doing very well and in a vein of form though.

Apologise youre right. But the Scittish scrum was one of the best in the 6n.

Yeah, but they didn't have Itoje or Kruis or Shaw or Courtney Laws or Hill behind them pushing, as we have been told, these players are the most powerful in the world because they saw it on the tele.

Only joking, trying to make it a feel good Friday before anybody complains.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

The simple reason is that people will tell you that stats don't matter.  Until they want them to matter for a point they're trying to prove.

Let's pick purely from stats then Oracle.

It's a better selection technique than 'feel'.

Go back through my posts and I've always said stats are limited through use with lack of context and understanding. The example I gave was the old England one of Tom Youngs lineout throwing vs Hartley. Very similar stats 9on onw lineouts won) indeed a good number of times Youngs was slightly better. Without watching, understanding and viewing the context of the games, when and where the lineouts were those stats are misleading. You talk about 'feel' not me. Stats can be useful i've not said they can't be. Going to use Geordie again as one of his past points on scrums for this example. Newcastle consistently had statistically a very good scrum, with a very high % on won on own ball. Because they knew in fact they weren't strong in that aspect and got the ball out as fast as possible, could be an issue on opposition ball (I'm sure he'll correct me if I've got that wrong but sure that was his point season before last).

alive555 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

England Scotland was 100% on own ball for each side. I haven't seen many people call for either Vunipola or Sinckler to start, personally I think LCD is doing very well and in a vein of form though.

Apologise youre right. But the Scittish scrum was one of the best in the 6n.

No need to apologise and the scrum is the reason I want Vunipola no where near the test side.

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

England Scotland was 100% on own ball for each side. I haven't seen many people call for either Vunipola or Sinckler to start, personally I think LCD is doing very well and in a vein of form though.

Apologise youre right. But the Scittish scrum was one of the best in the 6n.

Yeah, but they didn't have Itoje or Kruis or Shaw or Courtney Laws or Hill behind them pushing, as we have been told, these players are the most powerful in the world because they saw it on the tele.

Only joking, trying to make it a feel good Friday before anybody complains.

Itoje, Shaw and Kruis have a very good scrum setpiece, Lawes is about the level of Jones though. Know you and Oracle don't like that view and I get why.

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

alive555 wrote:Is there any reason why Scottish front row appears in literally no pundits lions teams?

Stats from 6n - Scrums won
Vs England better
Vs Ireland better
Vs Wales tied
Vs Italy better
Vs France worse (2/3) lost only 1

Reason is?

England Scotland was 100% on own ball for each side. I haven't seen many people call for either Vunipola or Sinckler to start, personally I think LCD is doing very well and in a vein of form though.

Apologise youre right. But the Scittish scrum was one of the best in the 6n.

Yeah, but they didn't have Itoje or Kruis or Shaw or Courtney Laws or Hill behind them pushing, as we have been told, these players are the most powerful in the world because they saw it on the tele.

Only joking, trying to make it a feel good Friday before anybody complains.

No, but they didn’t have a wet lettuce like Jones either

For what it's worth, this would be my starting pack:-

1. Wyn Jones
2. Ken Owens
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Curry
7. Watson
8. Faletau

Although, I am being swayed towards putting Tadhg Beirne at 6 instead of Curry.

I think Beirne has to feature in the test team, too good to be left out. Curry could be on the bench as he covers the back-row.

It's also surprising that Francis doesn't get mentioned much in these discussions. He wouldn't get past Furlong, but would be a worthy tourist. I think Cowan-Dickie should be near the test team too.

Beirne can partner Itoje at lock if Ryan’s form isn’t up to scratch

1. Marler (if available)
2. Cowan-Dickie, despite the travails of the pack in general his set piece was head and shoulders above anyone else
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Itoje
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8. Faletau

1. W.Jones
2. Owens
3. Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Beirne
7. Watson/Curry
8. Faletau

I can't separate Watson & Curry.

Don't think mine has changed since i posted the other week.

Marler LCD Furlong
Itoje Ryan
Ricthie Curry
Faletau or Vunipola.

Looking forward to Oracles with details on which stats have been used!