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Rainbow Cup laws

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Apologies if this is posted elsewhere but I can't see anything. Just got this from pro 14s twitter on some law changes that are being trialled in the Rainbow Cup.

'Law Variation Trials Explained
Replacement for Red Card player after 20 minutes

For red cards the offending player will be removed from the field for 20 minutes. After this time the team can replace this player with one of their nominated substitutes. The player who is given the red card will not be able to return to the pitch.

Just like the awarding of a yellow card, the 20 minutes will be measured in ‘game time’ meaning that the clock will not run during stoppages in play. The Red Card Replacement law will also apply to players who receive two yellow cards (which results in an automatic red).

Players who have been substituted for tactical reasons may be used to replace a player who has received a red card. The usual replacement laws continue to apply in that a replaced player may return for an injured front rower, injury due to foul play, HIA or blood.

Captain’s Challenge

The Captain’s Challenge is aimed at enhancing the accuracy of decisions already under the remit of the match officials. Each team is allowed one captain’s challenge in the match. These can be used for try-scoring and foul play incidents, or to challenge any refereeing decision in the last five minutes of a match.

The challenge will be referred to the TMO who will review the footage with the match referee making the final decision. If a challenge is successful, then the team keeps their challenge but if it is unsuccessful then the team loses the challenge. Challenges can only be made up to 20 seconds after the referee has blown his whistle for a stoppage in play and only incidents from the last passage of play can be challenged.

Prior to the 75-minute mark, the Captain’s Challenge can only be used to check for an infringement in the lead up to a try or to review foul play. The Captain’s Challenge will be applied more broadly from the 75-minute mark in any match at which point the captain, provided they have not already lost their Challenge, can use it to check any whistled decision regardless of whether a try has been scored. Injury time is included in the post 75-minute period.

TMOs will be able to go back to the last stoppage in play, regardless of how many phases have been played
Foul play challenges can be made after any stoppage in play if the captain believes foul play has been missed by the match officials
Captains must reference ‘specific’ incidents or infringements
Footage must be ‘clear and obvious’ for a challenge to be upheld
Captains cannot refer a scrum or lineout penalty, where the referee’s decision will be final
For the avoidance of doubt, there is no extra challenge available after 75 minutes. Teams receive one challenge per match and will only retain it if they are successful in a previous challenge.

What cannot be challenged

A restart in play has happened including a quick tap or quick throw in has been taken, so the team has chosen to play quickly
Non-decisions - where a referee does not blow their whistle for a decision and play continues (unless there is foul play)
Set-piece decisions cannot be challenged because they are technical decisions that could provide multiple outcomes based on the interpretations of players and referees
Goal-line drop-out

For held-up over the line, knock-ons that occur in goal or when the ball is grounded by a defending player in the in-goal area after a kick through, the defending team will take a drop-out from anywhere on the goal line.

The drop-out must be taken on or behind the defending team’s goal line and it must occur without delay. The ball must cut across the goal line and travel 5 metres. If this does not occur a sanction will apply and the non-kicking team may request the kick to be retaken or receive a 5m scrum in line with where the kick was taken.

For the avoidance of doubt, a missed penalty kick at goal or a missed drop-goal attempt will still result in a 22m drop-out for the defending team.'

Not a fan of reducing the impact of a red card overall and that captains challenge seems to have an awful lot of caveats. These trials always seem to be judged a success so I'm guessing we may be seeing more comps do a similar thing.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 22 Apr 2021, 11:16 am

RDW wrote:One step at a time Doc - super rugby is a prime example of how things can go wrong when you expand too fast too far.

Australia and NZ rugby have stumbled on a format that really works - local competition followed by cross border. It's great they're bringing two Pacific island teams into the mix too.
I'm not so sure.  The national leagues worked in the year with Covid when there were virtually no other sporting options.  And this year is not too much different with Covid still rampant.  The travel bubble between Aus and NZ certainly helps.  

On the other hand, I agree Super Rugby seemed to expand very quickly, which could not end well.  I have a feeling, with no real supporting information, that Aus/NZ were not happy as Super Rugby was constituted and were happy to get rid of the SA teams and the Jaguares, as well as the other new additions.  

SA has nowhere to go but up north or be alone.  Argentina is simply screwed.  I think the addition of the SA teams in a European competition makes good business and travel sense.  And will raise the profile of Rugby just a wee bit simply through the excitement factor.  

Covid numbers in SA and Argentina are high still, so I hope some accommodation for the Jaguares can be made for next season when Covid should be more under control than now.   And the SA teams can be part of some stable competition.  Otherwise we have the potential to lose both nations as strong competitors.

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Post by Old Man Thu 22 Apr 2021, 11:36 am

South Africa has now just become a feeder system for the rest of the world’s clubs, our youngsters are now also moving to America in hope of qualifying for the USA, a mate of mine's son Carmi Le Roux has signed a cricketing contract in the USA, by memory Seattle, his hope to qualify and represent them.

I doubt Pro16 is going to somehow become the magical Cow that will allow us to retain our top players.

I have been watching the Varsity Cup currently on, and the amount of talent is scary deep. The quality and skills they exhibit to me at least is very exciting.

I am still of the opinion SARU has got it wrong.

They should build our domestic rugby into a 14 team comp. We need to provide opportunity for these youngsters to play proffessional rugby, even if the Salaries aren’t comparable to Europe, Japan or the USA.

Our focus should be building depth into 14 provinces.

Then end of season have four All Star teams compete for higher honours.

We cannot keep our players and it is foolish to pretend the Pro16 is go8ng to solve the issue.

So forget that and build. At least if we pump the conveyor belt full we stand a chance to retain some good players.

The current situation is wasting talent, the coaches get lazy and just pick the cream, if we build on all 14 provincial teams the coaches will have to focus on developing players that are talented enough but has room for improvement. It will also provide more opportunity for coaching development.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 22 Apr 2021, 4:15 pm

Taine Basham back for Dragons. This competition is getting more positive for me, by the minute. Hope he doesn't get one of those trial red cards, if he is a bit over eager.

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 22 Apr 2021, 6:45 pm

Having just seen the Ulster team for the Connacht match it is clear this competition is not consider of any real importance
compared to the Challenge Cup

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Post by Brendan Fri 23 Apr 2021, 12:38 pm

I think for mid table teams this is a chance of a final and possibly a cup that might not come round again. For Connacht, Edinburgh, Benetton, Dragons and Blues if the put out a ful team they may get a nice run.

Leinster Seconds though still one of the favourites.

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Post by RDW Fri 23 Apr 2021, 12:41 pm

Edinburgh have put a bunch of kids out - average age under 24. To be fair we also have 16 players on the injury list.

Glasgow have out our pretty much their strongest team available, again with quite a lot of injuries..

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Post by tigertattie Fri 23 Apr 2021, 1:08 pm

RDW wrote:Edinburgh have put a bunch of kids out - average age under 24. To be fair we also have 16 players on the injury list.

Glasgow have out our pretty much their strongest team available, again with quite a lot of injuries..

To be fair though Glasgow's strongest available team is still pretty mince.

Edinburgh to win at a canter (even though we're not even playing the unwashed yet - thats just how confident I am)
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Post by RiscaGame Fri 23 Apr 2021, 2:57 pm

Dragons go strong in some areas, not so much in others. Fairly similar to Scarlets, I guess. We are trialling Jared Rosser a winger, at 13.

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Post by Brendan Fri 23 Apr 2021, 4:25 pm

Ringrose returns from injury to captain Leinster for Rainbow Cup clash against Munster

Munster named a strong side for tomorrow’s game.

LEINSTER AND MUNSTER have named their sides for tomorrow’s opening round Rainbow Cup game between the sides at the RDS [KO 7.35pm, live on eir Sport & RTÉ Radio].

Garry Ringrose returns from an ankle injury to captain the side while Caelen Doris also comes back into the team after being sidelined with James Ryan recovering enough to take his place on the bench. 

Academy scrum-half Cormac Foley could make his debut for Leinster as a replacement.

Munster are almost all full-strength, although Gavin Coombes starts the game on bench and Andrew Conway has been left out of the 23.

Leinster: Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Garry Ringrose (CAPT), Rory O’Loughlin, James Lowe, Harry Byrne; Hugh O’Sullivan, Ed Byrne, Dan Sheehan, Andrew Porter, Ross Molony, Ryan Baird, Josh Murphy, Scott Penny, Caelan Doris

Replacements: Seán Cronin, Peter Dooley, Michael Bent, James Ryan, Scott Fardy, Cormac Foley, Ciarán Frawley,Tommy O’Brien. 

Munster: Mike Haley; Keith Earls, Chris Farrell, Damian de Allende, Shane Daly; Joey Carbery, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer; Jean Kleyn, Tadhg Beirne; Peter O’Mahony (CAPT), Jack O’Donoghue, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Diarmuid Barron, Jeremy Loughman, Keynan Knox, Fineen Wycherley, Gavin Coombes, Craig Casey, Ben Healy, Calvin Nash.

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Post by RDW Sat 24 Apr 2021, 12:09 pm

Watching Tahs v Rebels in SR Australia tonight and there was a red card early in the first half for the Rebels 8, meaning they were back to 15 for the 2nd half. Got to say it really doesn't feel massively satisfactory that the Rebels are back to 15 for the entire 2nd half as if nothing happened - the red was a high tackle that made head contact (borderline but probably a red), and the guy then swung a few punches in the aftermath. Probably a couple of red cards in one go, yet as a team they only suffered for 20 minutes.

It's definitely the most controversial as a law change!

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Post by RiscaGame Sat 24 Apr 2021, 3:52 pm

I can’t see how overall it’ll be a plus. There aren’t that many red calls that are wrong, IMO.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 24 Apr 2021, 6:27 pm

Is Pappali’i a project player?

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Post by Kingshu Sat 24 Apr 2021, 8:49 pm

Yeah I think devaluing the red card is wrong. Somethings are worth a red card. The issue at the minute is that a red card is very harsh and should be for only the most severe fouls, and a yellow isnt always enough.

I would introduce a black card, where a player has to be subbed, if no subs left tough.
If something is worse than yellow but not really a red, issue a yellow and black card, 10 mins in bin, and has to be subbed for someone to come back on.
Very serious foul play still gets a red, as sometimes it is deserved.

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Post by Brendan Sat 24 Apr 2021, 10:16 pm

Big wins for Munster, Ospreys and Benetton.

How strong was the Blues team. I know Ospreys got some lucky bounces but where we'll on top.

Ulster v Connacht influenced by a captain's call and Glasgow go the whole length of the pitch from a goal-line drop out. Thankfully no red yet (as far as I saw)

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Post by Kingshu Sun 25 Apr 2021, 1:21 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Is Pappali’i a project player?

I suppose he could be, isn't tied to anyone yet, but with the qualifying period now 5 years and he is 27, I don't think Ireland will give a first cap to a 32 yo. It may effect who Connaht can sign after them put I don't really think it will make any difference if he is just considered NIQ at present.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 25 Apr 2021, 9:09 am

I wouldn’t mind Papili’i at a Welsh team, it’s like big Nick Williams all over again. Ulster vs Connacht was a great game. Connacht are a good attacking team.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 25 Apr 2021, 9:11 am

Brendan wrote:Big wins for Munster, Ospreys and Benetton.

How strong was the Blues team.  I know Ospreys got some lucky bounces but where we'll on top.

Ulster v Connacht influenced by a captain's call and Glasgow go the whole length of the pitch from a goal-line drop out.  Thankfully no red yet (as far as I saw)

Blues team was a bit understrength. Lots of guys in different positions, actually thought Ratti was okay at 8. The reserve props really do tip the scales, but were mostly being sent backwards in the scrum. Blues could do with some quality at hooker and second row, but it doesn’t seem like they’ll be making any purchases.

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 25 Apr 2021, 11:59 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Is Pappali’i a project player?

He's not. "Special project players" have effectively been dropped by IRFU since 2017 and they don't apply to Connacht anyway. 5 years is what's required to become resident and Papali'i is only being offered one-year contracts - same as Porch and O'Donnell. He started in Aug 2020 so wouldn't be eligible until August 2025 at which point he'd be 32.

His role is to be a back-up/bench for games - e.g. Paul Boyle (24) No 8 is ahead of him in starting and a regular captain of the side. Papali'i, along with Jarad Butler, can also help develop the younger backrowers in the squad - Oliver (25), S Masterson (23), O'Brien (26) and Gallagher (23).
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Post by RiscaGame Sun 25 Apr 2021, 4:17 pm

What a great competition the Rainbow Cup is. Always been a big fan.

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Post by profitius Sun 25 Apr 2021, 6:21 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Is Pappali’i a project player?

Papa Leahy is a fine player but got sent off twice this season and was inches away from another red last night. Might explain why he didn't play super rugby.
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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 25 Apr 2021, 10:08 pm

profitius wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Is Pappali’i a project player?

Papa Leahy is a fine player but got sent off twice this season and was inches away from another red last night. Might explain why he didn't play super rugby.

I remember one of the red cards. I think ‘Cardiff Blues’ could do with a player like him. Jarad Butler has been good for Connacht too.

If he’s just on rolling contracts I’d be surprised if Cardiff or a French team don’t have one eye on him.

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 10:38 am

I'm still of the opinion that the Rainbow Cup is an unnecessary competition, one that curtailed the end of an already badly effected Pro14 season. I'd still rather have seen the full season play out and then give the squads ample time to prepare for what will be a very competitive league next year.
However......sorry I mean:
HOWEVER!!!!!! Wasn't there some fantastic rugby played, what an advertisement for the Pro14/16, what a joy to witness even from an Ulster fan after watching them lose to a brilliant Connacht and a captains call that would usually have been game over at that point.

P.S. Pappali’i, if he can keep himself legal, is one hell of a wrecking ball of a player, exactly what Ulster needs if he'd fancy a wee trip across the Island Wink

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Post by Brendan Mon 26 Apr 2021, 3:25 pm

I think there were some really good games.

Benetton if they can do the double over Zebre could be sitting on 3 from 3.

Depending what the Blues do it could be a shot out between Dragons and Ospreys in round 3 for who gets 3 from 3.

Without seeing the last three rounds maybe we could see some interesting teams make a final. Maybe Ospreys v Munster. Whoever lose this round will send the kids out I think.

Final Glasgow, they were poor, you have to wonder can the current coaching setup turn it around or will the SRU be looking for someone else.

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Post by Brendan Mon 03 May 2021, 2:32 pm

I know alot of the thought because of Ulster's and Leinster's defeats that maybe they aren't phyisical enough but I think that is to simplistic. Ulster was in part down to the brave calls of Bortwick and the loss of Cooney. Leinster I think don't have a plan when on the physical back foot, much like Exeter do against teams like Leinster and Sarries.

What I am looking forward to (especially as a Munster fan) that the top teams in the Pro14 don't get put in enough hard games to adapt a plan to play against the bigger teams. Thankfully with the big packs of the 4 South African teams there will be more games where the Irish teams will be outpowered.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 03 May 2021, 5:17 pm

Brendan wrote:I know alot of the thought because of Ulster's and Leinster's defeats that maybe they aren't phyisical enough but I think that is to simplistic. Ulster was in part down to the brave calls of Bortwick and the loss of Cooney.  Leinster I think don't have a plan when on the physical back foot, much like Exeter do against teams like Leinster and Sarries.

Borthwick's "brave calls" are what he does every game. Admittedly he normally gives Heyes and Clare a few minutes after half time to warm up but they are normally on before the 45th minute. It was always likely to the tactic to absorb pressure and make Ulster work hard in the first half and then open up in the second given the team selection. Ben Youngs sat on the bench was the key giveaway.

I do agree physicality wasn't really a factor as Ulster out muscled Tigers in the first half. Fitness and leadership were bigger factors. Tigers bench brought impact and Ulster under pressure defending a lead looked rudderless, doubly so when Cooney went off. Kicking in an aerial contest with Tigers fullback brought them absolutely nothing yet they repeatedly tried it. Only when they stopped Matthewson kicking and attacked ball in hand they scored. The leaders on the pitch and the coaches need to have a rethink.

Possibly the same for Leinster. La Rochelle are a bit of an oddity in that most teams just don't play like them. That free flowing game plan which is very SH influenced has been there for a while but now accompanied by ROG's pragmatic brain mean they are a difficult proposition. Leinster tried to contain and pressure. To be fair it nearly worked, going into the final quarter behind was always going to mean that Leinster were up against it.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 09 May 2021, 3:09 pm

Definitely not a fan of the red card replacement law. Today’s Cardiff v Dragons game has proven that it is nonsense.

Captain’s Challenge has proven to have its merits though.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 09 May 2021, 5:19 pm

Delaney leaving Scarlets now as well, with immediate effect it seems.

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Post by The Oracle Sun 09 May 2021, 11:02 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Delaney leaving Scarlets now as well, with immediate effect it seems.

What do you reckon Mikey, any behind the scenes stuff? Seems a bit sudden to me. First the move ‘upstairs’ and then gone completely within a few weeks of Peel being announced. Seems something might be afoot. About to be sacked? Didn’t get on with the board? Homesick maybe?
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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 09 May 2021, 11:22 pm

No clue, a strange u-turn but it certainly seems that way. It’s not often Scarlets ship 50+ points, yet they’ve done it three times this season under Delaney... I don’t think they have looked as good as they did under Mooar. Delaney was probably about to be sacked, I’ve noticed coaches-under-fire often leave before getting the sack these days. I wonder if more will follow, Franks, etc.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 10 May 2021, 8:33 am

Forgot Franks was there to be honest. Yes, Mooar seemed to do much better and really bought into the culture of the club and the local area. He seemed genuinely gutted when he left but felt the offer in NZ was too good an opportunity to turn down. But Delaney doesn’t seem to have got on so well. Tougher time to be there with Covid, etc. I suppose. But some pretty shocking results along the way.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 10 May 2021, 9:54 am

To be honest, I am not really going to remember this competition in a few weeks time, and it's already cost George North a place with the Lions.

I hate the new red card rule, and the goal line drop outs just means team kicking as far as they can just to start defending again, reminds me of another sport with the same shape ball......... chin

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 10 May 2021, 11:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:To be honest, I am not really going to remember this competition in a few weeks time, and it's already cost George North a place with the Lions.

I hate the new red card rule, and the goal line drop outs just means team kicking as far as they can just to start defending again, reminds me of another sport with the same shape ball......... chin

I just said that on another thread. The games have been entertaining but unfortunately, simply from the nature of these pretend cups, utterly meaningless and forgettable.

The red card rule cannot remain, it's ridiculous but I do quite like the goal line drop outs, I know it will usually mean simply defending again but high, hanging, contestable goal line drops could become a factor there too. all be it a very risky factor.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 10 May 2021, 11:27 am

Pete330v2 wrote:I do quite like the goal line drop outs, I know it will usually mean simply defending again but high, hanging, contestable goal line drops could become a factor there too. all be it a very risky factor.

What happens if you kick them straight out into touch ?

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Post by PhilBB Mon 10 May 2021, 11:45 am

Would the drop out law be needed if referees properly penalised the early latch on to the ball carrier?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 May 2021, 11:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I do quite like the goal line drop outs, I know it will usually mean simply defending again but high, hanging, contestable goal line drops could become a factor there too. all be it a very risky factor.

What happens if you kick them straight out into touch ?

Same as the 22 drop out the opposition choose:

The drop-out being retaken,
A scrum; or
A lineout; or
A quick-throw.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 May 2021, 11:54 am

PhilBB wrote:Would the drop out law be needed if referees properly penalised the early latch on to the ball carrier?

Seeing it raised a lot more now. Sometimes it drops out of a refs consciousness but with Exeter and Bath its being called a lot now.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 10 May 2021, 11:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I do quite like the goal line drop outs, I know it will usually mean simply defending again but high, hanging, contestable goal line drops could become a factor there too. all be it a very risky factor.

What happens if you kick them straight out into touch ?

Same as the 22 drop out the opposition choose:

The drop-out being retaken,  
A scrum; or
A lineout; or
A quick-throw.

Where would the scrum be ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 May 2021, 11:58 am

It'll be in the law book somewhere.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 10 May 2021, 12:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Would the drop out law be needed if referees properly penalised the early latch on to the ball carrier?

Seeing it raised a lot more now. Sometimes it drops out of a refs consciousness but with Exeter and Bath its being called a lot now.

They are amateurs at it compared with Leinster and Munster.
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Rainbow Cup laws - Page 2 Empty Re: Rainbow Cup laws

Post by LordDowlais Mon 10 May 2021, 12:12 pm

If teams are under the cosh, and are knackered, they will be kicking the drop out straight into touch and hope the attacking team does not take a quick line out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 May 2021, 12:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:If teams are under the cosh, and are knackered, they will be kicking the drop out straight into touch and hope the attacking team does not take a quick line out.

It would be scrum 5 on your own line presumably. Or at least the choice.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 10 May 2021, 12:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If teams are under the cosh, and are knackered, they will be kicking the drop out straight into touch and hope the attacking team does not take a quick line out.

It would be scrum 5 on your own line presumably. Or at least the choice.

It's halfway with a 22 drop out, so that must mean they have changed the rule with that as well.

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Rainbow Cup laws - Page 2 Empty Re: Rainbow Cup laws

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 May 2021, 12:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If teams are under the cosh, and are knackered, they will be kicking the drop out straight into touch and hope the attacking team does not take a quick line out.

It would be scrum 5 on your own line presumably. Or at least the choice.

It's halfway with a 22 drop out, so that must mean they have changed the rule with that as well.

Not according to laws ive seen. Its a scrum on 22. Accompanying video under law 12 confirms. Hence I assumed it would be 5m scrum for this.

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Post by Brendan Mon 10 May 2021, 2:18 pm

As Glasgow showed if done well you can catch the opposition by surprise with the drop out. If you can get the ball quickly and have the opposition being slow to get up the field can really open up.
Also running the ball back from half way if done right can break the defence as the defending team is trying to rush up as fast as they can meaning some players who are a little slower leave holes.

Having endless pick and gos and re-set scrums do little for the attacking team and also gives the defending team a legal way to stop the attacker quickly.

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Rainbow Cup laws - Page 2 Empty Re: Rainbow Cup laws

Post by Brendan Mon 10 May 2021, 2:23 pm

Red card comes down to refs should give red cards regardless of when the offence is committed but usually happen in the second half rather then the first because they don't like to make big calls.

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