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Lions Announcement - Round 2

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu May 06, 2021 1:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

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Lions Announcement - Round 2  - Page 6 Lions_11

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat May 08, 2021 2:53 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

Marler is an excellent scrummaging prop, even at 30 is playing as well as ever and at 114kg is a chunky aggressive LHP, which is why I was looking forward to him on the field against us so we could have a direct comparison to Rory Sutherland, a rugby player in a wheelchair 18 months, but at 27, he is a clever aware prop, faster and at 118kg is arguably the best scrummaging prop in the UK.....but of course Sutherland is not the best scrummaging lock by some distance.

Unfortunately Marler pulled out of that game, so we can't really compare but we do know that that the Scottish FR dismantled their English counterparts with Sutherland absolutely destroyed Stuart.

Only my opinion but Sutherland is a better scrummaging front row than Marler.
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Post by Rugby Fan Sat May 08, 2021 3:14 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

The Jones mentioned there is Adam, not Eddie.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat May 08, 2021 3:26 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

The Jones mentioned there is Adam, not Eddie.


Aaah I see, apologies to Eddie then
Adam Jones is not one to make sweeping comments, so I doubt very much he would ever say "and by some distance", but you've got to sit up and take note when he says somethings about the FR, although I am sure if he was coach for Edinburgh instead of Quins and watched Rory week in week out like we do he might be making the same comments about Sutherland
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Post by king_carlos Sat May 08, 2021 3:43 pm

Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Serious questions because I don’t know the answers - how good was Marler’s form this year and how good a scrummager is he?


Very good and excellent....he's our best scrummaging prop. With him and Sinckler at prop, I'd put us as a match for anyone.
The turnaround in the scrum when Marler came on in the RWC final was stark. After a half of getting pummeled Marler came on and won a penalty against the starting Boks front row. Next scrum they changed out their front row for Marx, Kitshoff and Koch who had pummeled packs in the second half all tournament and Marler won a couple of pens against them as well from memory. That was done with Dan Cole understandably tiring over the second half from basically playing 80 minutes as well due to Sinckler's injury.

Kruis coming on at the same time as Marler will have had an impact to. He and Itoje have a rep as very good scrummaging locks.

I still think Marler is England's best all round loosehead. Though I rate Mako very highly too. His scrummaging for the most part has been fine for England, the Lions and Sarries. The times I remember him struggling noticeably it's been against tightheads and packs that most props struggle against. Frans Malherbe in the RWC final and Furlong in the latest Six Nations for instance. Looseheads picked for their scrummaging get taught a lesson by guys like that. When it's Mako though some fans seem to focus in on it and forget about the previous few games where he was fine in the scrum, made 20 tackles and 10 carries.

The English won one scrum penalty in the RWC final
Was it not one pen against the head? I could be misremembering. The turnaround definitely happened after Marler coming on though. First scrum after half time Mako got absolutely minced by Malherbe, which gave SA the first points of the second half. Then Marler came on and England had a memorable first scrum where they tore through.

The scrums won sat at about 3 for England and 11 for SA at the end of the game so the damage was done in that first half for sure. I'm a huge fan of the SA tight five so not trying to do your lads down I assure you, Bilt. Mtawarira had a real Indian summer to finish his career, Malherbe and Kitshoff are beasts, then Mbonambi and Marx are fantastic hookers with contrasting strengths. And then the battery of locks. Then PSdT at blindside. Then Kolisi and Vermuelen. Ridiculous. It's nuts that Koch is probably the weakest player in there!

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat May 08, 2021 3:49 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:...Adam Jones is not one to make sweeping comments, so I doubt very much he would ever say "and by some distance"...
He didn't say "and by some distance" but in that video, he did say "Marler is the best scrummager in the world for me. He's phenomenal", which is pretty sweeping.

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Post by king_carlos Sat May 08, 2021 3:50 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Biggar has failed his HIA.

Rubbish news that. Biggar has had a few HIAs as well. Hopefully he can bounce back in time.

I must admit I've not been an enormous Biggar fan down the years. His kicking and recovering of up and unders have always been excellent but he frequently didn't seem to impose himself on games. This season I've been very impressed by him almost every time I've seen him though. Especially for Saints at times he's outstanding.

His commitment in defence is impressive and likely has contributed to the knocks.

My next in line would be Ford rather than Sexton. I thought Sexton had the higher highs over the Six Nations but I'm just not sure his body would cope with a Lions tour at this stage. Similar to Wilkinson in 2013. With only 2 fly-halves, 3 centres and 1 Farrell they really need the players in those positions to be available game to game.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat May 08, 2021 4:38 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:...Adam Jones is not one to make sweeping comments, so I doubt very much he would ever say "and by some distance"...
He didn't say "and by some distance" but in that video, he did say "Marler is the best scrummager in the world for me. He's phenomenal", which is pretty sweeping.

You are right it is and I've a lot of time for Adam Jones so you have got to sit up and take notice, but playing devils advocate, he is the scrummaging coach for Quins with a vested interest. For me Sutherland has answered who is the best LH scrummager in the UK, it's a shame in 2021 we haven't seen Marler at international level to compare.

He's been in great form at club level, and from a scrum perspective, I would have been just as happy to see him there, even if it was at Sutherlands expense.

However from a total rugby viewpoint he is a loose cannon, unfortunately there's been too many incidents to ignore, could you imagine him have a sly fiddle with some of the SAs, they wouldn't have looked at the ref with a "come on ref" view, he would have been picking up daisies.
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Post by Cyril Sat May 08, 2021 4:51 pm

Yet you’re so keen to ignore Russell’s pretty shocking disciplinary record (not to mention his off-field behaviour)?

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat May 08, 2021 5:07 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

Marler is an excellent scrummaging prop, even at 30 is playing as well as ever and at 114kg is a chunky aggressive LHP, which is why I was looking forward to him on the field against us so we could have a direct comparison to Rory Sutherland, a rugby player in a wheelchair 18 months, but at 27, he is a clever aware prop, faster and at 118kg is arguably the best scrummaging prop in the UK.....but of course Sutherland is not the best scrummaging lock by some distance.

Unfortunately Marler pulled out of that game, so we can't really compare but we do know that that the Scottish FR dismantled their English counterparts with Sutherland absolutely destroyed Stuart.

Only my opinion but Sutherland is a better scrummaging front row than Marler.

I'll stick with Adam Jones' opinion I think.


Last edited by Soul Requiem on Sat May 08, 2021 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat May 08, 2021 5:15 pm

With the non selection of Sinckler it kind of passed me by a little with Fagerson going. Good player but a bit funny to ever mention sincklers discipline when taking a guy who missed 6ns game due to suspension.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat May 08, 2021 5:54 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

Marler is an excellent scrummaging prop, even at 30 is playing as well as ever and at 114kg is a chunky aggressive LHP, which is why I was looking forward to him on the field against us so we could have a direct comparison to Rory Sutherland, a rugby player in a wheelchair 18 months, but at 27, he is a clever aware prop, faster and at 118kg is arguably the best scrummaging prop in the UK.....but of course Sutherland is not the best scrummaging lock by some distance.

Unfortunately Marler pulled out of that game, so we can't really compare but we do know that that the Scottish FR dismantled their English counterparts with Sutherland absolutely destroyed Stuart Genge.

Only my opinion but Sutherland is a better scrummaging front row than Marler.

I'll stick with Adam Jones' opinion I think.
England were 5/5 with Scotland 6/6 in that game, some scrum domination from the Scots there.

That's fair enough Adam Jones is well thought of

Made a mistake there it was Genge that Sutherland dismantled not Stuart who had a good game

Here's the Independent Paper players ratings
1. Rory Sutherland – 8. Sutherland dominated Genge

This is the Independent rating on the England pack
1. Ellis Genge – 4. He was dominated throughout the contest, losing his one-on-one battle with Rory Sutherland.
2. Jamie George – 5. Not good enough as he was dominated by Scotland’s front row.
3. Will Stuart – 6. He made a number of big tackles to keep Scotland at bay.
4. Maro Itoje – 5. Itoje charged down a clearing kick early, but he conceded far too many penalties.
5. Jonny Hill – 6. Another Englishman that just didn’t turn up.
6. Mark Wilson – 5. He never got to grips with the Scottish ruck, and was dominated physically.
7. Tom Curry – 5. Curry was completely outclassed by Jonny Gray.
8. Billy Vunipola – 5. He was sin binned following repeated infringements, although his high tackle was particularly disheartening.

But then even the most biased England fan would have said that on the day England's pack and FR was completely outclassed.....except for you itt seems


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Post by Soul Requiem Sat May 08, 2021 5:58 pm

Sutherland was up against Stuart not Genge, the numbers are a clue there.

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Post by Old Man Sat May 08, 2021 5:58 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Serious questions because I don’t know the answers - how good was Marler’s form this year and how good a scrummager is he?


Very good and excellent....he's our best scrummaging prop. With him and Sinckler at prop, I'd put us as a match for anyone.
The turnaround in the scrum when Marler came on in the RWC final was stark. After a half of getting pummeled Marler came on and won a penalty against the starting Boks front row. Next scrum they changed out their front row for Marx, Kitshoff and Koch who had pummeled packs in the second half all tournament and Marler won a couple of pens against them as well from memory. That was done with Dan Cole understandably tiring over the second half from basically playing 80 minutes as well due to Sinckler's injury.

Kruis coming on at the same time as Marler will have had an impact to. He and Itoje have a rep as very good scrummaging locks.

I still think Marler is England's best all round loosehead. Though I rate Mako very highly too. His scrummaging for the most part has been fine for England, the Lions and Sarries. The times I remember him struggling noticeably it's been against tightheads and packs that most props struggle against. Frans Malherbe in the RWC final and Furlong in the latest Six Nations for instance. Looseheads picked for their scrummaging get taught a lesson by guys like that. When it's Mako though some fans seem to focus in on it and forget about the previous few games where he was fine in the scrum, made 20 tackles and 10 carries.

The English won one scrum penalty in the RWC final
Was it not one pen against the head? I could be misremembering. The turnaround definitely happened after Marler coming on though. First scrum after half time Mako got absolutely minced by Malherbe, which gave SA the first points of the second half. Then Marler came on and England had a memorable first scrum where they tore through.

The scrums won sat at about 3 for England and 11 for SA at the end of the game so the damage was done in that first half for sure. I'm a huge fan of the SA tight five so not trying to do your lads down I assure you, Bilt. Mtawarira had a real Indian summer to finish his career, Malherbe and Kitshoff are beasts, then Mbonambi and Marx are fantastic hookers with contrasting strengths. And then the battery of locks. Then PSdT at blindside. Then Kolisi and Vermuelen. Ridiculous. It's nuts that Koch is probably the weakest player in there!

Yeah another bunch of props for the Sharks today had belters, in specific Thomas du Toit, scored to tries and his partner in crime Ox Ntche dominated the Lions scrum.

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Post by king_carlos Sat May 08, 2021 6:07 pm

Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The scrums won sat at about 3 for England and 11 for SA at the end of the game so the damage was done in that first half for sure. I'm a huge fan of the SA tight five so not trying to do your lads down I assure you, Bilt. Mtawarira had a real Indian summer to finish his career, Malherbe and Kitshoff are beasts, then Mbonambi and Marx are fantastic hookers with contrasting strengths. And then the battery of locks. Then PSdT at blindside. Then Kolisi and Vermuelen. Ridiculous. It's nuts that Koch is probably the weakest player in there!

Yeah another bunch of props for the Sharks today had belters, in specific Thomas du Toit, scored to tries and his partner in crime Ox Ntche dominated the Lions scrum.

Luan de Bruin at Tigers has been impressive even playing in his weaker position of loosehead. He should be playing tighthead again when he moves to Edinburgh for next season. He's some unit.

Has Jacques du Plessis returned to the Bulls yet? He's been very impressive at Montpellier for years now. With Lood de Jager and Snyman struggling with injuries he'd be a hell of a second row or blindside to add to the squad. Pieter-Steph du Toit mark 2 right there.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat May 08, 2021 6:16 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Sutherland was up against Stuart not Genge, the numbers are a clue there.

Yes to clarify before tripping over myself again
Stuart had a good game and scrummaged well v Surtherland, however Genge on a 1-2-1 comparison.....well you know (or maybe not) how the day panned out

As I said, wouldn't have been unhappy if Marler was selected but as much as Jones waxes lyrical about his boy, if you look at the 2021 stats even at EPL there's no proof of this.
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Post by Old Man Sat May 08, 2021 6:22 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The scrums won sat at about 3 for England and 11 for SA at the end of the game so the damage was done in that first half for sure. I'm a huge fan of the SA tight five so not trying to do your lads down I assure you, Bilt. Mtawarira had a real Indian summer to finish his career, Malherbe and Kitshoff are beasts, then Mbonambi and Marx are fantastic hookers with contrasting strengths. And then the battery of locks. Then PSdT at blindside. Then Kolisi and Vermuelen. Ridiculous. It's nuts that Koch is probably the weakest player in there!

Yeah another bunch of props for the Sharks today had belters, in specific Thomas du Toit, scored to tries and his partner in crime Ox Ntche dominated the Lions scrum.

Luan de Bruin at Tigers has been impressive even playing in his weaker position of loosehead. He should be playing tighthead again when he moves to Edinburgh for next season. He's some unit.

Has Jacques du Plessis returned to the Bulls yet? He's been very impressive at Montpellier for years now. With Lood de Jager and Snyman struggling with injuries he'd be a hell of a second row or blindside to add to the squad. Pieter-Steph du Toit mark 2 right there.
Du Plessis is shown as in the Bulls squad, but he hasn’t played in the first two rounds yet.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat May 08, 2021 6:34 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Sutherland was up against Stuart not Genge, the numbers are a clue there.

Yes to clarify before tripping over myself again
Stuart had a good game and scrummaged well v Surtherland, however Genge on a 1-2-1 comparison.....well you know (or maybe not) how the day panned out

Few weeks ago Genge mullered Stuart in the scrum with Stuart conceding three of four scrum penalties and a couple of freekicks. Stuart is still pretty young in prop terms though at 24. If he kicks on again he could be special.

Sutherland and Wyn Jones I had as bankers at loosehead the debate was who'd go with them.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat May 08, 2021 6:45 pm

Also check out the emotion in Sinckler's post match interview today. Man of the match today and he's still gutted about not being selected, he's almost in tears talking about it in the interview. If people ask how much it means to the players...

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat May 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Cyril wrote:You would think Scotland had thrashed England given flyhalffactory’s posts. It was a tight game with a lot of English mistakes. It could have gone either way.

Scotland finished 4th in the table (admittedly a better finish for them than usual) but let’s not get carried away.

The score kind of flattered England, they never really looked like winning which shouldnt really have been a surprise given Scotlands recent record v England.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat May 08, 2021 7:08 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

Marler is an excellent scrummaging prop, even at 30 is playing as well as ever and at 114kg is a chunky aggressive LHP, which is why I was looking forward to him on the field against us so we could have a direct comparison to Rory Sutherland, a rugby player in a wheelchair 18 months, but at 27, he is a clever aware prop, faster and at 118kg is arguably the best scrummaging prop in the UK.....but of course Sutherland is not the best scrummaging lock by some distance.

Unfortunately Marler pulled out of that game, so we can't really compare but we do know that that the Scottish FR dismantled their English counterparts with Sutherland absolutely destroyed Stuart Genge.

Only my opinion but Sutherland is a better scrummaging front row than Marler.

I'll stick with Adam Jones' opinion I think.
England were 5/5 with Scotland 6/6 in that game, some scrum domination from the Scots there.

That's fair enough Adam Jones is well thought of

Made a mistake there it was Genge that Sutherland dismantled not Stuart who had a good game

Here's the Independent Paper players ratings
1. Rory Sutherland – 8. Sutherland dominated Genge

This is the Independent rating on the England pack
1. Ellis Genge – 4. He was dominated throughout the contest, losing his one-on-one battle with Rory Sutherland.  
2. Jamie George – 5. Not good enough as he was dominated by Scotland’s front row.
3. Will Stuart – 6. He made a number of big tackles to keep Scotland at bay.
4. Maro Itoje – 5. Itoje charged down a clearing kick early, but he conceded far too many penalties.  
5. Jonny Hill – 6. Another Englishman that just didn’t turn up.  
6. Mark Wilson – 5. He never got to grips with the Scottish ruck, and was dominated physically.
7. Tom Curry – 5. Curry was completely outclassed by Jonny Gray.
8. Billy Vunipola – 5. He was sin binned following repeated infringements, although his high tackle was particularly disheartening.

But then even the most biased England fan would have said that on the day England's pack and FR was completely outclassed.....except for you itt seems



It seems that somebody who has never seen a game of rugby wrote these players ratings. The loosehead lost his one v one battle with.....the opposition loosehead? How did that happen then? Curry the openside.....was completely outclassed by Gray.....the lock? Eh? It you follow it down further, apparently Finn Russel kicked much better than Itoje throughout the game......

Scotland certainly had the edge come scrum time, but they did not "dismantle" the English scrum. It was a big kick in the teeth for the the English props tbh....our 3rd choice TH and LH failed to step up to the plate.

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Post by Cyril Sat May 08, 2021 7:10 pm

Disagree on that, Guns. It was a close, low quality game. Generally the case when Scotland beat England. The Ireland/England game was one where the better side won (a bit of a change considering England’s recent dominance of Ireland).

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Post by The Oracle Sat May 08, 2021 7:30 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Well Marler has stated he would have toured but Gatland didn't enquire about his availability. Jones is right in saying he's the best scrummager and by quite some distance, it could be a tour defining decision.

That's Eddies opinion, did he have the gall to say "and by some distance"?

Marler is an excellent scrummaging prop, even at 30 is playing as well as ever and at 114kg is a chunky aggressive LHP, which is why I was looking forward to him on the field against us so we could have a direct comparison to Rory Sutherland, a rugby player in a wheelchair 18 months, but at 27, he is a clever aware prop, faster and at 118kg is arguably the best scrummaging prop in the UK.....but of course Sutherland is not the best scrummaging lock by some distance.

Unfortunately Marler pulled out of that game, so we can't really compare but we do know that that the Scottish FR dismantled their English counterparts with Sutherland absolutely destroyed Stuart Genge.

Only my opinion but Sutherland is a better scrummaging front row than Marler.

I'll stick with Adam Jones' opinion I think.
England were 5/5 with Scotland 6/6 in that game, some scrum domination from the Scots there.

That's fair enough Adam Jones is well thought of

Made a mistake there it was Genge that Sutherland dismantled not Stuart who had a good game

Here's the Independent Paper players ratings
1. Rory Sutherland – 8. Sutherland dominated Genge

This is the Independent rating on the England pack
1. Ellis Genge – 4. He was dominated throughout the contest, losing his one-on-one battle with Rory Sutherland.  
2. Jamie George – 5. Not good enough as he was dominated by Scotland’s front row.
3. Will Stuart – 6. He made a number of big tackles to keep Scotland at bay.
4. Maro Itoje – 5. Itoje charged down a clearing kick early, but he conceded far too many penalties.  
5. Jonny Hill – 6. Another Englishman that just didn’t turn up.  
6. Mark Wilson – 5. He never got to grips with the Scottish ruck, and was dominated physically.
7. Tom Curry – 5. Curry was completely outclassed by Jonny Gray.
8. Billy Vunipola – 5. He was sin binned following repeated infringements, although his high tackle was particularly disheartening.

But then even the most biased England fan would have said that on the day England's pack and FR was completely outclassed.....except for you itt seems



It seems that somebody who has never seen a game of rugby wrote these players ratings. The loosehead lost his one v one battle with.....the opposition loosehead? How did that happen then? Curry the openside.....was completely outclassed by Gray.....the lock? Eh? It you follow it down further, apparently Finn Russel kicked much better than Itoje throughout the game......

Scotland certainly had the edge come scrum time, but they did not "dismantle" the English scrum. It was a big kick in the teeth for the the English props tbh....our 3rd choice TH and LH failed to step up to the plate.


What’s wrong with that?! A certain poster here says you can outclass someone on your own side who plays a different position, so..... opposition player of a different position must be possible, ya?!
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Post by Cyril Sat May 08, 2021 7:36 pm

The Independent seems to be only slightly less lacking in rugby nous than the rah that is WOL.

To be fair, The Independent rarely covers much rugby and probably had the cricket correspondent covering it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat May 08, 2021 7:36 pm

Not my fault you don't know the meaning of certain words Oracle. To outclass; to be far superior to.

Clearly you can judge out of 10 how good a player has played in a match. Given that if one player gets a 4 out of 10 and another 9 then the player with 9 outclassed the other in that game. The weird thing of the above scores and summaries is that they're saying a loose head dominated another loose head. I suppose they could mean in the loose rather than set piece however it does come across as they're not that familiar with the sport.

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Post by RiscaGame Sat May 08, 2021 7:53 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Also check out the emotion in Sinckler's post match interview today. Man of the match today and he's still gutted about not being selected, he's almost in tears talking about it in the interview. If people ask how much it means to the players...

It was a great interview. Pure class from him.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat May 08, 2021 8:00 pm

Cyril wrote:Disagree on that, Guns. It was a close, low quality game. Generally the case when Scotland beat England. The Ireland/England game was one where the better side won (a bit of a change considering England’s recent dominance of Ireland).

Fair enough, and true it was good to break the run of wins

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Post by king_carlos Sat May 08, 2021 8:13 pm

Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The scrums won sat at about 3 for England and 11 for SA at the end of the game so the damage was done in that first half for sure. I'm a huge fan of the SA tight five so not trying to do your lads down I assure you, Bilt. Mtawarira had a real Indian summer to finish his career, Malherbe and Kitshoff are beasts, then Mbonambi and Marx are fantastic hookers with contrasting strengths. And then the battery of locks. Then PSdT at blindside. Then Kolisi and Vermuelen. Ridiculous. It's nuts that Koch is probably the weakest player in there!

Yeah another bunch of props for the Sharks today had belters, in specific Thomas du Toit, scored to tries and his partner in crime Ox Ntche dominated the Lions scrum.

Luan de Bruin at Tigers has been impressive even playing in his weaker position of loosehead. He should be playing tighthead again when he moves to Edinburgh for next season. He's some unit.

Has Jacques du Plessis returned to the Bulls yet? He's been very impressive at Montpellier for years now. With Lood de Jager and Snyman struggling with injuries he'd be a hell of a second row or blindside to add to the squad. Pieter-Steph du Toit mark 2 right there.
Du Plessis is shown as in the Bulls squad, but he hasn’t played in the first two rounds yet.

Hopefully he can get some game time and finally get a cap. There was a thread about a year back when a few of us got sidetracked discussing the best players in the game currently that haven't been capped internationally. du Plessis was my first suggestion. He'd have surely been capped by most nations at this stage. There's just such ridiculous strength at lock and blindside for Boks.

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Post by The Oracle Sat May 08, 2021 8:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not my fault you don't know the meaning of certain words Oracle. To outclass; to be far superior to.

Clearly you can judge out of 10 how good a player has played in a match. Given that if one player gets a 4 out of 10 and another 9 then the player with 9 outclassed the other in that game. The weird thing of the above scores and summaries is that they're saying a loose head dominated another loose head. I suppose they could mean in the loose rather than set piece however it does come across as they're not that familiar with the sport.

There you go Sgt Pooly. It is possible! Curry was outclassed by Gray. Perfectly logical as explained above thumbsup
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Post by Old Man Sat May 08, 2021 8:23 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The scrums won sat at about 3 for England and 11 for SA at the end of the game so the damage was done in that first half for sure. I'm a huge fan of the SA tight five so not trying to do your lads down I assure you, Bilt. Mtawarira had a real Indian summer to finish his career, Malherbe and Kitshoff are beasts, then Mbonambi and Marx are fantastic hookers with contrasting strengths. And then the battery of locks. Then PSdT at blindside. Then Kolisi and Vermuelen. Ridiculous. It's nuts that Koch is probably the weakest player in there!

Yeah another bunch of props for the Sharks today had belters, in specific Thomas du Toit, scored to tries and his partner in crime Ox Ntche dominated the Lions scrum.

Luan de Bruin at Tigers has been impressive even playing in his weaker position of loosehead. He should be playing tighthead again when he moves to Edinburgh for next season. He's some unit.

Has Jacques du Plessis returned to the Bulls yet? He's been very impressive at Montpellier for years now. With Lood de Jager and Snyman struggling with injuries he'd be a hell of a second row or blindside to add to the squad. Pieter-Steph du Toit mark 2 right there.
Du Plessis is shown as in the Bulls squad, but he hasn’t played in the first two rounds yet.

Hopefully he can get some game time and finally get a cap. There was a thread about a year back when a few of us got sidetracked discussing the best players in the game currently that haven't been capped internationally. du Plessis was my first suggestion. He'd have surely been capped by most nations at this stage. There's just such ridiculous strength at lock and blindside for Boks.
Well that’s the problem for so many positions in SA, but then there are also those positions where we severely lack in depth. Flyhalf the most pertinent one currently, after Pollard nobody stands out.

In general our backline players don’t possess the quality in skills the All Blacks have. There are some youngsters in the Varsity Cup with much better general skills than our current Super Rugby players.

Interestingly Nick Mallet a few years ago made a plea that our players learn the skills of improving their abilities to step, stay on their feet longer and learn to offload through the tackle. It seems to be improving with the new generation of players, rather going into space than running over players.

The great news is our rugby is transforming rapidly, looking at Varsity Cup the mix of players is far more equitable with many players from coloured and African ethnicity being the players showing deft running skills and a propensity to run good supporting lines, tracking the ball carrier and running themselves into space.

Most of the Varsity matches have been exhilarating to watch.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat May 08, 2021 8:24 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not my fault you don't know the meaning of certain words Oracle. To outclass; to be far superior to.

Clearly you can judge out of 10 how good a player has played in a match. Given that if one player gets a 4 out of 10 and another 9 then the player with 9 outclassed the other in that game. The weird thing of the above scores and summaries is that they're saying a loose head dominated another loose head. I suppose they could mean in the loose rather than set piece however it does come across as they're not that familiar with the sport.

There you go Sgt Pooly. It is possible! Curry was outclassed by Gray. Perfectly logical as explained above thumbsup

As I said seems confused but actually knowing what the words mean could be logical. There isn't enough explanation in the summary which justifies or explains it though.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat May 08, 2021 8:26 pm

Will Franz Steyn get selected for SA. As Lions fans we forget for South Africans etc. these tours only come around every 12 years, it would be pretty special if Steyn ended up facing the Lions for a 2nd time. Cant be many guys in that boat.

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Post by Old Man Sat May 08, 2021 8:42 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Will Franz Steyn get selected for SA. As Lions fans we forget for South Africans etc. these tours only come around every 12 years, it would be pretty special if Steyn ended up facing the Lions for a 2nd time. Cant be many guys in that boat.

It is a definite possibility yes. He has played well for the Cheetahs, also taking over kicking duties when Pienaar got injured. He was consistently accurate, I can’t see Jacques Nienaber not selecting him.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat May 08, 2021 10:49 pm

Will be a nice story. Think Colin Meads managed to feature in two tours too.

http://en.espn.co.uk/sport/rugby/story/181235.html

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun May 09, 2021 8:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:With the non selection of Sinckler it kind of passed me by a little with Fagerson going. Good player but a bit funny to ever mention sincklers discipline when taking a guy who missed 6ns game due to suspension.

Not to mention that whilst Fagerson might edge the scrummaging....he's not a patch on Sinkler in every other area of the game.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun May 09, 2021 8:53 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:With the non selection of Sinckler it kind of passed me by a little with Fagerson going. Good player but a bit funny to ever mention sincklers discipline when taking a guy who missed 6ns game due to suspension.

Not to mention that whilst Fagerson might edge the scrummaging....he's not a patch on Sinkler in every other area of the game.

Good Morning Geordie, hope you are well
Can you prove that or is that just your opinion?

I can't prove that ZF is a much better FRF and has been for the last 12-18 months,  so the only thing I could do, is look at the overall stats on the 6Ns to kinda qualify my opinion. Based on the overall stats, it certainly backs up my opinion and I suppose the Lions selectors that ZF is the better overall player.

ZF seriously needs to sort one weak area of his game, he gave away 5 pens and you are correct he made a silly judgement call and was rightfully sent off, whilst Sinks only had 1 pen officially recorded against him.

Now outside of that facet of play, he played less mins than Sinckler as a result, but even taken that into account , the stats just show just how seriously good ZF but of course you're not going to read that in the English press

We could go through the 2021 stats as the line in the sand if you want
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun May 09, 2021 10:49 am

Stats don't define if player A is better than player B....if that was the case they would be no point going to watch games, Gatland would just check the stats after the match and moneyball it.

Stats are always a funny topic on here. The guy using the stats to back up his argument will constantly quote "the stats" without much context whilst the other guy will belittle said stats, claiming you need to watch a player, not the stats.

The truth is that stats need context and better stats don't mean a better player.

I remember a loosehead we used to have at Falcons, Jon Golding. His stats were off the chart for a prop, 15/20 tackles, carries galore and multiple pens against the head in the set piece. He got brought into the England squad and never really got a look in....basically his scrummaging wasn't up to scratch, but playing on the other side of the scrum to a certain Carl Hayman enhanced him somewhat. I'm not suggesting this is case here, but stats don't tell you everything........

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun May 09, 2021 10:57 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stats don't define if player A is better than player B....if that was the case they would be no point going to watch games, Gatland would just check the stats after the match and moneyball it.

Stats are always a funny topic on here. The guy using the stats to back up his argument will constantly quote "the stats" without much context whilst the other guy will belittle said stats, claiming you need to watch a player, not the stats.

The truth is that stats need context and better stats don't mean a better player.

I remember a loosehead we used to have at Falcons, Jon Golding. His stats were off the chart for a prop, 15/20 tackles, carries galore and multiple pens against the head in the set piece. He got brought into the England squad and never really got a look in....basically his scrummaging wasn't up to scratch, but playing on the other side of the scrum to a certain Carl Hayman enhanced him somewhat. I'm not suggesting this is case here, but stats don't tell you everything........
Thats also usually the argument you get from someone who doesnt like the stats they see.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun May 09, 2021 11:22 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stats don't define if player A is better than player B....if that was the case they would be no point going to watch games, Gatland would just check the stats after the match and moneyball it.

Stats are always a funny topic on here. The guy using the stats to back up his argument will constantly quote "the stats" without much context whilst the other guy will belittle said stats, claiming you need to watch a player, not the stats.

The truth is that stats need context and better stats don't mean a better player.

I remember a loosehead we used to have at Falcons, Jon Golding. His stats were off the chart for a prop, 15/20 tackles, carries galore and multiple pens against the head in the set piece. He got brought into the England squad and never really got a look in....basically his scrummaging wasn't up to scratch, but playing on the other side of the scrum to a certain Carl Hayman enhanced him somewhat. I'm not suggesting this is case here, but stats don't tell you everything........
Thats also usually the argument you get from someone who doesnt like the stats they see.

Haha...I'm not a big fan of rolling out stats to prove this player is better than the other, it doesn't mean anything.

Is ZF a better player than KS currently? Maybe he is, he's very good. I've not seen a great deal of ZF in club rugby so hard to form a concrete opinion either way tbh.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun May 09, 2021 11:50 am

Yeah honestly I dont even know who guys are comparing him to. Anyway he is a very decent player as are all the props selected, good depth this time round.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun May 09, 2021 11:53 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stats don't define if player A is better than player B....if that was the case they would be no point going to watch games, Gatland would just check the stats after the match and moneyball it.

Stats are always a funny topic on here. The guy using the stats to back up his argument will constantly quote "the stats" without much context whilst the other guy will belittle said stats, claiming you need to watch a player, not the stats.

The truth is that stats need context and better stats don't mean a better player.

You are correct to a degree but they are a reference point, a line in the sand in which to try to compare, you can build the narrative around the statistical information.......If Gats & Co rewatched the WC2019/ANC/6Ns they would have assessed the performance levels of each player. As an economist/mathematician I probably know how stats can be manipulated to suggest anything, hence the "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" popular but inaccurate phrase. The stat Eng 6 - 11 Sco didn't reflect the game at all, but when you add another stat; Sco kicking accuracy 40% it becomes a bit more apparent and as you add more stats it becomes less of a lie and more of a "truth"  

This is highlighted with reference to your claim that the rugby media columnist "couldn't have watched the game" because how could Johnny Gray totally outplay Curry when they had different positions, I'd suggest that this columnist although hyperbole was pretty accurate, I'd also suggest perhaps re-watching the entire game again.

With regards to meat around the statistical bone
It wasn't difficult (as the columnist accurately alluded) to see why Curry gave away 3 pens / missed tackles 3, also why Itoje 3P / 3MT and 2 lost line outs during the Scotland.....in the main it was due to the Gray Jnr (Exeter) 2021 model being vastly improved from the 2017 (Glasgow) version doing a job on both, he not only rocked Curry to his core with an early tackle so dominant he must have thought he was back in the WC final, but he turned Itoje over with ease twice and the only way both Itoje/Curry could compete on the day was to give penalties away.......luckily Townsend/Pivac/Farrell had already planted the seeds pre-tournament and a shocked Itoje realised this was ground zero, where the line in the sand was. Conversely Gray Jnr performance stats were 0P / 0MT / 0 missed line outs / 1 T/O, we could build more stats to get to the "truth"...... he made 2 T/Os, he stole 2 Line outs, more runs, passed more, made the same metres as Curry

This is an english columnist for Sky (and a few english national media outlets)
Jonny Gray: The Exeter Chiefs man produced a towering performance for his country and forced the likes of Maro Itoje into rare mistakes. 9
Tom Curry: He showed plenty of willingness with the ball in hand, but it is difficult to remember England's explosive flanker ever being so ineffective. 5

However the data is based purely on one game, so not really accurate, I suppose it becomes more accurate over the entire 6Ns but still not really accurate enough (to extrapolate the data to predict future performance) to select a Richie over a Curry, or a Gray over an Itoje.

The disappointing thing to me, was the statistical and actual performance level of Gray (albeit he carried a slight shoulder injury) dropped considerably from then on, which is a shame because Gray might never get another chance to be a Lion

It's all in the past, it's just a perception, a stat, a lie, a truth......... an opinion
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Post by flyhalffactory Mon May 10, 2021 9:52 am

Lions Watch w/e 9/5/21

Wow! 10/10
Smith - An awesome complete performance - got to be on standby

Superb 9/10 - Braces galore
Simmonds
Watson
LRZ
Cherry
Hardy - MOTM on his return from injury

Great 8/10
Adams
Sinckler

Getting back to form 7/10
Jon Davies
McInally - try on his return from long-term injury


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Post by BigGee Mon May 10, 2021 10:01 am

Fagerson and Price both pkayed well for Glasgow as well.

Price in particular looked very assured and perhaps showed why he should be on the plane.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon May 10, 2021 10:02 am

flyhalffactory wrote:Lions Watch w/e 9/5/21

Wow! 10/10
Smith - An awesome complete performance - got to be on standby

Superb 9/10
Simmonds
Watson
LRZ

Great 8/10
Adams
Sinckler

Getting back to form 7/10
Jon Davies

Who is smith?

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon May 10, 2021 10:07 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Lions Watch w/e 9/5/21

Wow! 10/10
Smith - An awesome complete performance - got to be on standby

Superb 9/10
Simmonds
Watson
LRZ

Great 8/10
Adams
Sinckler

Getting back to form 7/10
Jon Davies

Marcus Smith

Who is smith?
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Post by flyhalffactory Mon May 10, 2021 10:09 am

BigGee wrote:Fagerson and Price both pkayed well for Glasgow as well.

Price in particular looked very assured and perhaps showed why he should be on the plane.

Yes indeed Price really managed the game. Enjoyed the game
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Post by LordDowlais Mon May 10, 2021 10:15 am

LRZ was really impressive on the weekend by all accounts. With Gatland in attendance.

Also, Dan Biggar and Jack Conan both took knocks, Boyd has come out and said Biggar is OK, but there is no news on Conan.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon May 10, 2021 10:26 am

Conan was just a head knock (return to play protocol) he should be fine.

Would be nice to know who is on the standby list. Some guys in my view in no order:

May - May was one England guy who has actually been playing pretty well. Id take him over Adams and Daly.
Ringrose - Great player but I get the arguments for a bigger centre.
Sexton - Too old, too frail
Gray - unlucky
Ryan - unlucky but hasnt had his best year
Slade - same as Ringrose
Navidi - has a good chance of being on standby


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Post by Collapse2005 Mon May 10, 2021 10:28 am

One guy that I think Gatland could have selected ahead of Aki is Chris Farrell especially if Aki is being selected for his size.

Farrell is a very big guy who is very physical and mobile for his size and quite skillful. He is quite under rated in my view and he knows Damian DeAllende very well.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon May 10, 2021 10:38 am

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/57007554

Disagree with Matt Dawson's column, "Jonny Sexton has not been at the races". Sexton was the best or arguably the 2nd best (behind Biggar) 10 in the 6 nations this year. He certainly got the better of Farrell and Russell in their head to head games. He was also very good in the champions cup. Granted yes Sexton missed the game v France due to head injury and the same v La Rochelle this year however, time and time over his career he has been written off as too injury prone and almost always comes back in the next game and has a stormer.

Also Dawson believes the squad has been picked with physicality in mind as that is the way to beat the Boks. Personally I dont think thats how to beat the Boks at all and thats where England have tried and failed before. You have to out smart them too not out muscle them.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon May 10, 2021 10:43 am

If Tuilagi proves fitness he surely leapfrogs people as well.

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