Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

George Carlin wrote:The Saffer regional franchises will be told that if they manage to injure a few of their counterparts along the way, that wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing. I am delighted that we have guys like Sinckler, Ryan and Sexton ready to call up.

I suspect most professional players would have enough respect for the opposition and the effect injuries have on a relatively short career to dismiss that notion

Collapse2005 wrote:Tom Court only got selected as he was on holidays in Australia being an Aussie himself.

He still played well though. Proof that Australia is a good place for a break and a barbie.

Tell that to Ronan O'Gara Old Man, the Aussies were scared enough of the Lions they instructed the Waratahs players to do as much damage as possible. McRae walked off laughing once shown the red card and instead of been banned for life McRae only got a 7 week suspension. 12 punches to a helpless player on the ground who was lucky not to lose his sight in one eye. the suspension at the end of the season says it all, no punishment at all.

He later admitted that the Waratahs had gone out to "ROUGH UP" the Lions, Grewcock got an elbow in the face in the first few minutes from memory.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Tell that to Ronan O'Gara Old Man, the Aussies were scared enough of the Lions they instructed the Waratahs players to do as much damage as possible. McRae walked off laughing once shown the red card and instead of been banned for life McRae  only got a 7 week suspension. 12 punches to a helpless player on the ground who was lucky not to lose his sight in one eye. the suspension at the end of the season says it all, no punishment at all.

He later admitted that the Waratahs had gone out to "ROUGH UP" the Lions, Grewcock got an elbow in the face in the first few minutes from memory.

I have never seen a rugby player punching an opposition player twelve times, I must have watched a thousand rugby matches in my lifetime. That is not the norm.

Old Man, I am in total agreement that it is not the norm. It was your comment about respect for each other than suddenly brought back the memory. It was not just what he did, but that it appeared to be sanctioned by the club and the ARU that really hits home. When a player gets a red card, they walk off, angry, or contrite, not with a big grin on their face as if to say "job done". To then get a 7 week ban that was in effect about 2 matches, to me tells me it was premeditated and sanctioned at the highest level.

It was bad enough that if it happened over here, the ban would probably have been for years possibly life and maybe even a police prosecution.

Not all players or boards have respect for other players, to some it is "win at any cost".

I think club players definitely go out to injure the Lions. I remember before the last world cup in France Ireland stupidly scheduled a friendly warm up game with French club Bayonne. It became clear very quickly in the game that the Bayonne players were only interested in injuring the Irish guys because Ireland and France were in the same group. Brian ODriscoll left the pitch with a fractured cheek after taking a punch to the face. I reckon plenty of this sort of thing happens on Lions tours too.

Old Man, if you have never seen it, see below. It is not pretty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fa6HsY4ZC8

He would have gotten a much longer ban for something like that now!

To be honest though, that was a good few years ago and thankfully it does not happen to the same extent now, indeed, hardly at all. Players know the sanctions they would get, in the court of public opinion as much as anything else. There is also a pretty good chance you would get a criminal prosecution for it.

I believe that happened to the rugby league player who did something similar in their cup final a few years back.

In the old days, provincial sides definitely tried to rough up the tourists. Think the Lions v Canterbury in 1971, when Sandy Carmichael had to leave the tour with facial fractures from the pounding he took. That was one of the reasons for the infamous 99 call on the 74 tour, when they definitely decided not to be bullied by anyone and got their retaliation in first.

Thankfully that is not part of the game now and I don't think we will see it again.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Old Man, if you have never seen it, see below. It is not pretty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fa6HsY4ZC8

I went to look for it on youtube thx

Not pretty is it? Only 7 weeks at the end of the season...................make you own mind up on that one as to how it happened.

It was an ugly incident, but if there were orders from higher up its unlikely ROG would have been the main target. Just an absolute mindless idiot who didn't get the treatment he deserved. If I'm right in thinking Grewcock was off the pitch at this point, it's very lucky for McRae that he was

(no offence to ROG!)

BamBam wrote:It was an ugly incident, but if there were orders from higher up its unlikely ROG would have been the main target. Just an absolute mindless idiot who didn't get the treatment he deserved. If I'm right in thinking Grewcock was off the pitch at this point, it's very lucky for McRae that he was

(no offence to ROG!)

Hard to tell whether O'Gara was a planned target or not. He was a 10 and never considered a hard guy, so not outside the realm of possibility. I wouldn't target Grewcock, that would simply end badly.

There’s always been a ‘softening up’ aspect to the Lions tours but that McRae incident was pretty horrific. Having said that SA and NZ have also performed some pretty heinous acts in Tests too. Hopefully it’s out of the SA mindset now and there will be no more ‘it’s not ballet’ claims from the SA coach this time around.

doctor_grey wrote:

BamBam wrote:It was an ugly incident, but if there were orders from higher up its unlikely ROG would have been the main target. Just an absolute mindless idiot who didn't get the treatment he deserved. If I'm right in thinking Grewcock was off the pitch at this point, it's very lucky for McRae that he was

(no offence to ROG!)

Hard to tell whether O'Gara was a planned target or not.  He was a 10 and never considered a hard guy, so not outside the realm of possibility. I wouldn't target Grewcock, that would simply end badly.    

Ah I meant if Grewcock was on the pitch I reckon McRae would have got plenty in return

I was wondering how many of the Lions squad have been red carded in Test matches. Off the top of my head, the following come to mind. These were all on the pitch dismissals rather than post match citings.

Elliot Daly
Bundee Aki
Stuart Hogg
Finn Russell
Zander Fagerson

If you include red cards at club level, then Owen Farrell and Liam Williams would be on the list too. Possibly more that I don't know of.

This doesn't make them more likely to offend than anyone else. It just occurs to me Test match rugby is seeing a lot more red cards in general, so we are odds on to get some during this series, and even in the warm-up matches.

While Sonny Bill Williams' red card played a big role in New Zealand, this series could be off the charts for the way cards have an impact. Not because it will be a dirty affair: more that the stakes are high, and trends in officiating are going in one direction right now.

Id say Aki is a bit of a risk as he has had two red cards at international level in a short space of time. One in the RWC one v England. Aki is not a dirty player but with new rugby laws his techinque has been letting him down. I still think he is a great player.

Its going to be where coaches earn their salt. Players need to know if they are going to go in hard on a clearance that their basic technique needs to be good to at least offer mitigation should it go wrong. Genge at the weekend is a good example. That sort of clearance ends up red unless you're demonstrating that you are at least trying to grasp. Clearly there's more for refs to look at but that's a key piece.

Rugby Fan wrote:I was wondering how many of the Lions squad have been red carded in Test matches. Off the top of my head, the following come to mind. These were all on the pitch dismissals rather than post match citings.

Elliot Daly
Bundee Aki
Stuart Hogg
Finn Russell
Zander Fagerson

If you include red cards at club level, then Owen Farrell and Liam Williams would be on the list too. Possibly more that I don't know of.

This doesn't make them more likely to offend than anyone else. It just occurs to me Test match rugby is seeing a lot more red cards in general, so we are odds on to get some during this series, and even in the warm-up matches.

While Sonny Bill Williams' red card played a big role in New Zealand, this series could be off the charts for the way cards have an impact. Not because it will be a dirty affair: more that the stakes are high, and trends in officiating are going in one direction right now.

Scottish discipline is obviously an issue

The recent flurry of cards can impact the tour in a number of significant ways.

The Lions could take the blanket view that any player getting a red card should leave the tour and be replaced (assuming tour protocols allow that, rather than just injury cover). Then again, bans can cover matches, not just weeks, so a player could conceivably serve out a three or four match ban at the start of the tour and still be available for Tests.

There's also the matter of what plea a player might make. Most players nowadays plead guilty, and hope for mitigation. If you are on tour, and sure that a guilty plea will end your involvement, because you'll get a certain ban, then you might be tempted to deny the charge. If your gamble doesn't pay off, and you get a longer ban as a result, then that could have consequences for your club match availability.

I think if a Lion-to-be is stupid enough to take a Red at this stage of the season, then drop him and pick someone else.  Unless the Red is obviously a significant miscarriage of justice, then why bring a moron on tour?

doctor_grey wrote:I think if a Lion-to-be is stupid enough to take a Red at this stage of the season, then drop him and pick someone else.  Unless the Red is obviously a significant miscarriage of justice, then why bring a moron on tour?

Sadly though almost half the reds now are a mis time by inches, or a slight mis judgement, which seems harsh to throw the person out as morons.

Even if you look at the 6 nations, while they might have been right decisions, most of the red were fiercely debated and were very 'unlucky' as movements of the two players changed from not a penalty to a red with an inch

The new laws make getting a red much easier for non-malicious play, and while might be correct for saftey makes it much more of a lottery

R!skysports wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think if a Lion-to-be is stupid enough to take a Red at this stage of the season, then drop him and pick someone else.  Unless the Red is obviously a significant miscarriage of justice, then why bring a moron on tour?

Sadly though almost half the reds now are a mis time by inches, or a slight mis judgement, which seems harsh to throw the person out as morons.

Even if you look at the 6 nations, while they might have been right decisions, most of the red were fiercely debated and were very 'unlucky' as movements of the two players changed from not a penalty to a red with an inch

The new laws make getting a red much easier for non-malicious play, and while might be correct for saftey makes it much more of a lottery

I tend to agree, although I understand the necessity for ensuring player safety I find some red cards unlucky, it seems very little consideration is taken into account for ball carriers dipping, especially in a double tackle where there are milliseconds out in timing.

There's a good set of mitigation factors I think. All done in order. You may see some cases where it is foul play and then some mitigation goes out the window of course. An example is Genge at the weekend, yellow carded rather than red as he was attempting to grasp rather than clear out with the shoulder. Players are sometimes slow to learn but there are ways to clear out safely and reduce your risk of a red just as there were ways to contest balls in the air which initially saw a host of reds too.

Robbie Henshaw could easily have seen red for this:

https://twitter.com/PremierSportsTV/status/1393294776003448835

Ulster are still furious at the refereeing.

Citings are very iffy to me as to when they get picked up. Generally it only seems to be when the commentary team pick up on stuff. Jonny Williams got away with his headnon head tackle which should have been a red in the 6ns as did Sinckler for grabbing Jones tackle (they obviously know something we dont). Neither made much of if indeed spotted. I really don't know what the citing guys actually watch.

Rugby Fan wrote:Robbie Henshaw could easily have seen red for this:

https://twitter.com/PremierSportsTV/status/1393294776003448835

Ulster are still furious at the refereeing.

Borderline as he didnt make contact with the head at first. I think its fair to say the main contact was to the upper chest but it did lead to contact to the chin maybe.

Some refs will interpret this as a red so Henshaw should be careful. Too high.

Collapse2005 wrote:..Some refs will interpret this as a red so Henshaw should be careful. Too high.

I think that's right. In the Premiership, virtually every referee would give that as a red.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Citings are very iffy to me as to when they get picked up. Generally it only seems to be when the commentary team pick up on stuff. Jonny Williams got away with his headnon head tackle which should have been a red in the 6ns as did Sinckler for grabbing Jones tackle (they obviously know something we dont). Neither made much of if indeed spotted. I really don't know what the citing guys actually watch.

Wait what?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Citings are very iffy to me as to when they get picked up. Generally it only seems to be when the commentary team pick up on stuff. Jonny Williams got away with his headnon head tackle which should have been a red in the 6ns as did Sinckler for grabbing Jones tackle (they obviously know something we dont). Neither made much of if indeed spotted. I really don't know what the citing guys actually watch.

Wasn't that Marler?

Old Man wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think if a Lion-to-be is stupid enough to take a Red at this stage of the season, then drop him and pick someone else.  Unless the Red is obviously a significant miscarriage of justice, then why bring a moron on tour?

Sadly though almost half the reds now are a mis time by inches, or a slight mis judgement, which seems harsh to throw the person out as morons.

Even if you look at the 6 nations, while they might have been right decisions, most of the red were fiercely debated and were very 'unlucky' as movements of the two players changed from not a penalty to a red with an inch

The new laws make getting a red much easier for non-malicious play, and while might be correct for saftey makes it much more of a lottery

I tend to agree, although I understand the necessity for ensuring player safety I find some red cards unlucky, it seems very little consideration is taken into account for ball carriers dipping, especially in a double tackle where there are milliseconds out in timing.

You said that better than I did. That is what I meant by a miscarriage of justice, an red which could be unlucky or a bad call by the ref. In general, a lot of the nasty off the ball stuff has been managed out of the game, but still.....

doctor_grey wrote:

Old Man wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think if a Lion-to-be is stupid enough to take a Red at this stage of the season, then drop him and pick someone else.  Unless the Red is obviously a significant miscarriage of justice, then why bring a moron on tour?

Sadly though almost half the reds now are a mis time by inches, or a slight mis judgement, which seems harsh to throw the person out as morons.

Even if you look at the 6 nations, while they might have been right decisions, most of the red were fiercely debated and were very 'unlucky' as movements of the two players changed from not a penalty to a red with an inch

The new laws make getting a red much easier for non-malicious play, and while might be correct for saftey makes it much more of a lottery

I tend to agree, although I understand the necessity for ensuring player safety I find some red cards unlucky, it seems very little consideration is taken into account for ball carriers dipping, especially in a double tackle where there are milliseconds out in timing.

You said that better than I did.  That is what I meant by a miscarriage of justice, an red which could be unlucky or a bad call by the ref.  In general, a lot of the nasty off the ball stuff has been managed out of the game, but still.....  

Yup. Difficult terrain to navigate consistently and fairly.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Citings are very iffy to me as to when they get picked up. Generally it only seems to be when the commentary team pick up on stuff. Jonny Williams got away with his headnon head tackle which should have been a red in the 6ns as did Sinckler for grabbing Jones tackle (they obviously know something we dont). Neither made much of if indeed spotted. I really don't know what the citing guys actually watch.

Wait what?

His Johnson.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Citings are very iffy to me as to when they get picked up. Generally it only seems to be when the commentary team pick up on stuff. Jonny Williams got away with his headnon head tackle which should have been a red in the 6ns as did Sinckler for grabbing Jones tackle (they obviously know something we dont). Neither made much of if indeed spotted. I really don't know what the citing guys actually watch.

Wait what?

His Johnson.

Who was Mr Johnson, in this context?

Mr AW Jones Winkle.

You see i use the right term and the forums smut filter changes it to that! My 2 were better!

No 7&1/2 wrote:You see i use the right term and the forums smut filter changes it to that! My 2 were better!

Yes but the bit I don't get is that we all know what Marler did, but you mentioned Sinckler?

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You see i use the right term and the forums smut filter changes it to that! My 2 were better!

Yes but the bit I don't get is that we all know what Marler did, but you mentioned Sinckler?

Yup. Bottom of the ruck. Really quite naughty and a red card. Can't find the twitter vid now but it was either this 6Ns or the Autumn (this last year has rolled into 1 for me). Posted about it at the time but it wasn't obvious and wasn't picked up by the comentators, hence my point that the citing process isn't really robust. Its a clear red, will post again if I find the vid.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mr AW Jones Winkle.

But who was Mr Johnson originally? Surely not the 36th president? He must have been a right tool.

Nope, English poet and writer (1709 - 1784). Some of his comments:

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.
Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance.

The first one makes me agree with the President Johnson comment.
The second, that he had never been to Newcastle.
The third, that he never met a rugby player (not to say that perseverance does not help, but you need the first before the second)

theslosty wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Lot of people surprised by Ryan being out.

As an Irish supporter I'm not - Henderson and Beirne have both outperformed him in the 6N.
I did think their was an outside chance all three would go.
That would have been instead of Hill, AWJ was always (rightly) going to go

I'd go further than that and say Henderson is the better player and has been for years. Ryan is good but he's overrated by the media as the replacement for Paulie, through no fault of his own. For all the stick AWJ gets as sometimes being a plodder in the row Johnny Gray and James Ryan are basically the same. Ryan doesn't put in world class performances when his pack's on the back foot and Gatland's clearly noticed that. Hill and AWJ are the tighthead locks and you can't really argue with that on the basis of knowing what AWJ can do and the experience he brings. Hill is fortunate to be picked but I think he has a higher ceiling than Ryan for a Lions tour like this where the lineout and loose play also counts. Hill's shown he can offer that with Exeter in big games, I'm not sure Ryan ever looks top class unless Leinster or Ireland are dominating. It's the same issue with Launchbury.

I don't know about this. Henderson has always had a lot of promise but had a lot of games for Ireland where he was a bit anonymous - the fact the likes of Devin Toner and Donnacha Ryan were often selected over Henderson says a lot - those two were good locks but not nearly as talented. I'm very glad Henderson showed what he can do for Ireland this 6N as it's been a long time coming.

As for Ryan, I feel the recent narrative around him has been quite revisionist. This critique of him has only come about now in a season he's played very few games, and the one game he did play in the 6N (Italy aside) he decimated Scotland's lineout. The comments about him not being good enough when Ireland are up against it, I disagree - I thought in Ireland's disappointing 2019 and 2020 he was often one of the only forwards to front up - particularly against England. As I say nobody was making this criticism last year when he was playing more regularly and really I think his concussions have cost him but I still think he's desperately unlucky. Sure he may have been part of a Leinster pack that was outplayed by La Rochelle recently but if we're going to judge players on just one game then Furlong Porter and Conan shouldn't be touring either.

And if we're talking about what Hill can offer in Exeter in big games I didn't see much of that when he went up against Ryan a few weeks ago in their defeat to Leinster.

I can't speak for anyone else but I've said for a while that Ryan isn't quite all he's cracked up to be by the media. Henderson though is top class and underrated. I think you have to put some of the blame on any underperformance on Joe Schmidt just look at Beirne and how he failed to integrate him in to the test team for the RWC. Schmidt didn't let certain players flourish and talented players like Henderson missed out. I think he's top class and has the all round game that makes him a thread against the best teams in the world. Just like Courtney Lawes but with more ability in the tight.

Johnny Hill is a similar sort of player to Henderson, someone who will take the ball on the wing and make ground, can offload decently, but doesn't shirk the physical game. He scores a lot of tries for a lock and also comes with height and lineout ability. He's probably the biggest risk in the squad but it's a risk with a potentially high reward if he finds form. Honestly though, a big reason he's gone is because Exeter play very similar rugby to Gatlandball but with even more emphasis on the set piece. We could end up with an Exeter core to the pack, particularly coming off the bench, with LCD, Hill, and Simmonds. They could be key for the second half of the test matches, which is when Exeter usually pull away from the opposition and rack up points with their driving game. All of the second rows who are touring are more mobile than Ryan as well which gives an insight in to how they're going to try to counter the Boks' power. It'll be high ball in play time and phase play, trying to prevent a stop/start game. It makes sense why Gatland would select the second rows he has with that type of rugby in mind.

"I agree with the majority of what you say but will say that I think Wyn Jones is nailed on to start the first test."

I know why you'd say that but I genuinely think most players have an almost equal shot at the test team. They will get one or maybe two chances to make their claim. Ultimately it comes down to balancing the skillset of the test team. We can't end up with a lack of balance otherwise the Boks will exploit the weaknesses. A lot of people have got on Mako's back over the years and particularly recently but I think he's in pole position based on what he brings around the park. He's one of the few Lions players who could claim to be world class. It's a sacrifice at the scrum but that's why he's gone for strong tight heads. If Mako plays well I think he starts but if he doesn't why not Wyn Jones is a great player as well who is in a long run of good form. The scrum could be decisive for who plays loose head. Same goes for lineout and hookers. Any sign of weakness in the warm ups could be costly. I don't think 2020/21 form will play that much of a role in who gets picked in all honesty. Some players pick themselves in the 23 based on how they offer unique attributes (Itoje, Hogg, Farrell, AWJ) and some will probably be favoured by Gatland (George, Murray). It's then a case of filling in the gaps, with a balanced team, and rewarding warm up form. Loose head looks like a balanced three way fight at the moment.

"Re the lucky trio of Simmonds, Conan and Hill. Simmonds is the current European player of the year. I don't think his selection is particularly lucky his numbers are ridiculous. Yes he's out of favour with Eddie but that's not going to make much difference to Gats. Conan when not injured is a fine player and proved so in the 6N and for Leinster Vs Exeter. Hill, yeah, he's a lucky boy as he's not adapted at all to international level so far but when/if he does he'll be a cracking player. Not a player I thought they'd go for though."

I think you give the reason why Simmonds is lucky in your assesssment of Hill. We haven't seen him at international level. Conan has never been a starting 8 for Ireland either, he's always been behind CJ Stander. All three are risks on that basis but all three could be inspired selections as they have huge potential and have been selected to nullify the power game.

y ddraig goch wrote:I can't speak for anyone else but I've said for a while that Ryan isn't quite all he's cracked up to be by the media. Henderson though is top class and underrated. I think you have to put some of the blame on any underperformance on Joe Schmidt just look at Beirne and how he failed to integrate him in to the test team for the RWC. Schmidt didn't let certain players flourish and talented players like Henderson missed out. I think he's top class and has the all round game that makes him a thread against the best teams in the world. Just like Courtney Lawes but with more ability in the tight.

Well you're entitled to your opinion and in fairness you've well explained it too. I suppose the gist of what you're saying is Ryan is not much more than a workhorse or even more damningly a 'plodder' - I think it's fair to say he doesn't have one outstanding attribute but nor does he have a weakness so that just depends on your perspective. I'd dispute he has a lower ceiling than Hill, I'm not making any commentary on Hill here but a couple of years ago Ryan was the best performing lock in Europe - better than Itoje, better than AWJ or Henderson or anyone else. He did/does everything pretty well but he had an ability to run on to the ball and pick lines off 9 which I wouldn't associate with the sort of run-of-the-mill player you're describing.

Schmidt should have integrated Beirne more quickly (mad to think Quinn Roux earned several caps over him) but Henderson just lacked consistency to nail down his spot. This is just conjecture on my part but he sometimes came across as an affable friendly bloke you'd meet in the pub, nothing wrong with being laidback but not necessarily what you want in the 2nd row. Of course when he was fired up then he was capable of dominating anybody.

Regarding Conan who you mentioned at the end of your post, I feel for CJ a bit but it's a selection from Gatland I like and along with Simmonds and Faletau I'm really excited to see who will fill that 8 shirt. Conan for a couple of years was putting in serious performances for Leinster and really warranting an Ireland start but I can understand Schmidt sticking with CJ as the latter was just so bloody consistent. With the lack of opportunities and a badly timed injury at the RWC I think Conan went years being underrated both inside and outside Ireland. However he has footballing skills, lineout ability and pace that CJ plainly doesn't - the Earls try against England being a great example of this, most people focused on the finish from Earls but the jump, catch and offload from Conan all timed perfectly, at full stretch and under pressure from Curry was magnificent.

theslosty wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:I can't speak for anyone else but I've said for a while that Ryan isn't quite all he's cracked up to be by the media. Henderson though is top class and underrated. I think you have to put some of the blame on any underperformance on Joe Schmidt just look at Beirne and how he failed to integrate him in to the test team for the RWC. Schmidt didn't let certain players flourish and talented players like Henderson missed out. I think he's top class and has the all round game that makes him a thread against the best teams in the world. Just like Courtney Lawes but with more ability in the tight.

Well you're entitled to your opinion and in fairness you've well explained it too. I suppose the gist of what you're saying is Ryan is not much more than a workhorse or even more damningly a 'plodder' - I think it's fair to say he doesn't have one outstanding attribute but nor does he have a weakness so that just depends on your perspective. I'd dispute he has a lower ceiling than Hill, I'm not making any commentary on Hill here but a couple of years ago Ryan was the best performing lock in Europe - better than Itoje, better than AWJ or Henderson or anyone else. He did/does everything pretty well but he had an ability to run on to the ball and pick lines off 9 which I wouldn't associate with the sort of run-of-the-mill player you're describing.

Schmidt should have integrated Beirne more quickly (mad to think Quinn Roux earned several caps over him) but Henderson just lacked consistency to nail down his spot. This is just conjecture on my part but he sometimes came across as an affable friendly bloke you'd meet in the pub, nothing wrong with being laidback but not necessarily what you want in the 2nd row. Of course when he was fired up then he was capable of dominating anybody.

Regarding Conan who you mentioned at the end of your post, I feel for CJ a bit but it's a selection from Gatland I like and along with Simmonds and Faletau I'm really excited to see who will fill that 8 shirt. Conan for a couple of years was putting in serious performances for Leinster and really warranting an Ireland start but I can understand Schmidt sticking with CJ as the latter was just so bloody consistent. With the lack of opportunities and a badly timed injury at the RWC I think Conan went years being underrated both inside and outside Ireland. However he has footballing skills, lineout ability and pace that CJ plainly doesn't - the Earls try against England being a great example of this, most people focused on the finish from Earls but the jump, catch and offload from Conan all timed perfectly, at full stretch and under pressure from Curry was magnificent.

The problem with judging just one team is how much it depends on the coach. In my opinion Schmidtball failed where Gatlandball has succeeded. Henderson has it all and I think he'd make it down in the souther hemisphere, particular New Zealand, whereas Ryan is the epitome of a northern hemisphere player. He looks good in games where Ireland can slow the ball down and dictate the pace but anonymous when the game demands more.

This from Henderson sums him up. There's about 4 'skill moments' that show his ability. The first is reading the lineout move despite not being in a position to steal the throw, and agility to intercept the ball. The second is his speed and power in the loose, bumping through the tackle. The second is his balance to stay on his feet when sidestepping having just lost his momentum in the bump off. The final one is his composure to ride the scramble defence despite being off balance, protect the ball with both hands so he doesn't knock it on, and use the leg drive and upper body strength to gain an extra 10 metres so the arriving forwards have a target to hit. You can't really teach that, it's just instinct and nous. I don't know why he's so underrated, especially in Ireland. Maybe the Leinster bias has something to do with it a bit like with Cardiff in Wales? If your journalists are mostly in one place they're going to be biased in the tone they set in the media. For me he's the most likely player to replace AWJ in the starting test team. He's got a top class all court game that Ryan doesn't.

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1393989504495767552

Conan looks good. He'll get an opportunity and it shows how the Lions are going to try to move the Boks around and play to the fringes which is really no surprise as that's what Gatland has coached since he took charge of Wales. Stander is unlucky but I always thought some of the older and more worn out players would be overlooked and he's one of them.

Biggar not to be cited, the citing officer thought it may have only been worthy of a yellow, so no citing.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Biggar not to be cited, the citing officer thought it may have only been worthy of a yellow, so no citing.

So, it was only The Telegraph who wanted Biggar to be cited? They were the only major news outlet I saw to headline their article about the match with the potential for Biggar to miss part of the Lions tour (and also Saints won).

Didn’t see this one, but Biggar has to be careful with his clear outs. He could’ve been in trouble in the Six Nations too.

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Biggar not to be cited, the citing officer thought it may have only been worthy of a yellow, so no citing.

So, it was only The Telegraph who wanted Biggar to be cited?  They were the only major news outlet I saw to headline their article about the match with the potential for Biggar to miss part of the Lions tour (and also Saints won).  

It was picked up on podcasts, especially because the officials appear to have missed the knock-on before Tom Wood's try, so there was sympathy for Wasps. Dave Flatman didn't think it was serious enough for Biggar to miss the tour, though he stopped short of saying whether it warranted a citing.

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Biggar not to be cited, the citing officer thought it may have only been worthy of a yellow, so no citing.

So, it was only The Telegraph who wanted Biggar to be cited?  They were the only major news outlet I saw to headline their article about the match with the potential for Biggar to miss part of the Lions tour (and also Saints won).  

It was picked up on podcasts, especially because the officials appear to have missed the knock-on before Tom Wood's try, so there was sympathy for Wasps. Dave Flatman didn't think it was serious enough for Biggar to miss the tour, though he stopped short of saying whether it warranted a citing.

Thanks. I get the sympathy for Wasps in that instance. I was surprised Biggar didn't get penalised one way or another. The shot wasn't hard and was a rather stupid thing to do. But many officials are taking a very hard line on any contact neck or above.

Andrew Porter is apparently out of the tour, damn unlucky for him

Sinckler taking his place

That’s a shame

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Biggar not to be cited, the citing officer thought it may have only been worthy of a yellow, so no citing.

So, it was only The Telegraph who wanted Biggar to be cited?  They were the only major news outlet I saw to headline their article about the match with the potential for Biggar to miss part of the Lions tour (and also Saints won).  

It was picked up on podcasts, especially because the officials appear to have missed the knock-on before Tom Wood's try, so there was sympathy for Wasps. Dave Flatman didn't think it was serious enough for Biggar to miss the tour, though he stopped short of saying whether it warranted a citing.

Thanks.  I get the sympathy for Wasps in that instance.  I was surprised Biggar didn't get penalised one way or another.  The shot wasn't hard and was a rather stupid thing to do.  But many officials are taking a very hard line on any contact neck or above.

Looked like a yellow card offence. The TMO in that game was useless.