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Alun Wyn Jones, Lions Captain - The Thread

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 25 May 2021, 11:07 am

A thread to to debate the qualities (or lack of depending on your standpoint) of AWJ as Lions captain.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 11:22 am

Can I just say this is ridiculous. Will any comment on any player now be off limits to Lions threads, or just the Welsh ones?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 25 May 2021, 11:28 am

It's not off limits at all. I just felt it was time to make a thread regarding the man seen as 50% of all chat on the Lions threads seem to be about him.

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Post by BamBam Tue 25 May 2021, 11:34 am

Laugh

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 May 2021, 12:11 pm

A truly great man. The best captain there could ever be.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 12:13 pm

I fear for is leadership skills when it comes to controlling referees. Warburton was widely praised for his management of the referee to draw the series in New Zealand, whereas Wales lost in Paris this year through being crazy in the last ten minutes. Jones didn't control his team and he didn't control the referee. The result meant no Grand Slam for Wales.

That's my sole fear with Jones as tour Captain. He will certainly command the respect of his peers for the tour.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 12:23 pm

As on the other thread Jones is unlikely to be captain by the time those last few minutes arrive.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 12:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As on the other thread Jones is unlikely to be captain by the time those last few minutes arrive.

I'm not sure of the evidence that suggests Gatland substitutes his captain or the evidence to suggest that AWJ isn't an 80 minute test match player.

So, I think the "unlikely" in your post is doing a lot of heavy lifting to the point of it being guesswork based on zero evidence.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 12:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As on the other thread Jones is unlikely to be captain by the time those last few minutes arrive.


AWJ plays the full 80mis+ for Wales, so it shouldn't be a problem for the Lions.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 12:29 pm

I'm basing it off the last tour when it was around the 50 min mark when Jones got subbed and the fact the other players who will line up next to him should he start are all younger.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 12:32 pm

Your basing it on a tour 5 years ago, I am basing it on the most recent competition where he played every minute in Wales's successful 6N winning campaign.


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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 12:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm basing it off the last tour when it was around the 50 min mark when Jones got subbed and the fact the other players who will line up next to him should he start are all younger.

He wasn't the Captain on the last tour.

Seems strange to use three games max as evidence in a career that's well past 100 caps.

As I noted, a lot of heavy lifting.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 12:37 pm

I'd say there's more competition for the Lions than Wales for 1 point. I'd say the likely starting locks would be Itoje and Jones and I'd personally be surprised that Itoje would come off the pitch. I'd also wouldn't be shocked if Gatland went with a 6 2 bench split meaning its more likely to see see a couple of locks come on and possibly Itoje to blindside flanker. Not a big fan of that myself but can definitely see it happening. I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 12:37 pm

Not really Phil.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 12:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say there's more competition for the Lions than Wales for 1 point. I'd say the likely starting locks would be Itoje and Jones and I'd personally be surprised that Itoje would come off the pitch. I'd also wouldn't be shocked if Gatland went with a 6 2 bench split meaning its more likely to see see a couple of locks come on and possibly Itoje to blindside flanker. Not a big fan of that myself but can definitely see it happening. I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

There's a lot of sense in that, I agree with much of it, but "unlikely" is a stretch. You should have stuck with "possibility".

Which, of course, would mean "who would captain the team if Jones wasn't there?" and the answer to that is unknown as there isn't a suitable alternative. Therein lies the problem.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 12:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really Phil.

For a man moaning in another thread about "semantics", you've got some front. I'll grant you that. Transparent, but some front.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 12:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote: I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

Whilst there is more chance that he will than not, what has that got to do with him being captain ?

I could say the same thing you have about any other player in the team. What I can say, with confidence, is that AWJ will start every single test barring injury.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 12:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say there's more competition for the Lions than Wales for 1 point. I'd say the likely starting locks would be Itoje and Jones and I'd personally be surprised that Itoje would come off the pitch. I'd also wouldn't be shocked if Gatland went with a 6 2 bench split meaning its more likely to see see a couple of locks come on and possibly Itoje to blindside flanker. Not a big fan of that myself but can definitely see it happening. I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

There's a lot of sense in that, I agree with much of it, but "unlikely" is a stretch. You should have stuck with "possibility".

Which, of course, would mean "who would captain the team if Jones wasn't there?" and the answer to that is unknown as there isn't a suitable alternative. Therein lies the problem.

Well its likely in my opinion hence thats what I've written and seemingly only a possibility in yours. And yes that is the question. For me the other possibles haven't really changed: Itoje, Curry, Farrell and Hogg the front runners for me and all likely to be on the pitch barring injury.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 12:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote: I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

Whilst there is more chance that he will than not, what has that got to do with him being captain ?

I could say the same thing you have about any other player in the team. What I can say, with confidence, is that AWJ will start every single test barring injury.

Because the question is around who would be captain when he's not on the pitch either starting or finishing.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 12:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote: I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

Whilst there is more chance that he will than not, what has that got to do with him being captain ?

I could say the same thing you have about any other player in the team. What I can say, with confidence, is that AWJ will start every single test barring injury.

Because the question is around who would be captain when he's not on the pitch either starting or finishing.

OK, but lets talk about that, and not why AWJ shouldn't be captain. It will be a moot conversation anyway, as of course he will be playing in every test injuries permitting. If he does have to go off for any reason, then Hogg would be the obvious choice.......

Unless Liam Williams is picked instead of him....... Laugh

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 May 2021, 1:01 pm

Why not just call it the Triggered thread? A lot of folk of a certain 'nationality' (which now apparently is a delicate debate), seem to get triggered by Super-AWJ. Imagine living your life getting triggered by AWJ!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 1:03 pm

A lot of the Welsh posters certainly get annoyed if people question whether he's going to be on the pitch every minute of the tests. e

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 1:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:A lot of the Welsh posters certainly get annoyed if people question whether he's going to be on the pitch every minute of the tests. e

Why don't you say it about any other players ?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 25 May 2021, 1:38 pm

There's nothing wrong with differing opinions....but keep the personal digs to one side or there'll be bans!

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 May 2021, 1:42 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's nothing wrong with differing opinions....but keep the personal digs to one side or there'll be bans!

Of course not, but I'm sure you remember this place during the last Lions tour, and the constant targeting / berating of AWJ by a group of Anglo posters. In fact, I'm certain you can remember that very well. Now AWJ is captain and said posters have already begun before the 2021 tour has kicked off. If this isn't giving the mod team cause for concern, it should do. It's only going to make your jobs more difficult if you don't nip it in the bud already!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 1:43 pm

In terms of what LD? People who likely won't play 80 mins? The front row, likely a flanker, scrum half and a floating one.

Sp for me that would be Jones, LCD, Furlong, Beirne and Davies

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:In terms of what LD? People who likely won't play 80 mins? The front row, likely a flanker, scrum half and a floating one.

Sp for me that would be Jones, LCD, Furlong, Beirne and Davies

There you go. So AWJ should be OK for captain ?

He is just the man for the job for my liking. OK

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Post by BamBam Tue 25 May 2021, 1:49 pm

The real problem is the group of sensitive little sausages who can't accept any criticism of their hero Laugh. Telling the mods you're going to make their lives more difficult is a novel approach, I must say

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 1:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:In terms of what LD? People who likely won't play 80 mins? The front row, likely a flanker, scrum half and a floating one.

Sp for me that would be Jones, LCD, Furlong, Beirne and Davies

There you go. So AWJ should be OK for captain ?

He is just the man for the job for my liking. OK

Eh? He's been made tour captain. As I've said I think there will be at least 2 captains across the 3 tests.

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Post by BamBam Tue 25 May 2021, 1:52 pm

Incidentally, I don't have any massive issues with Jones being tour captain, as long as performances on the field decide the starting Test line up. I'd always be in favour of picking the starting 15 first and picking the best captain for the game on that basis. I recall Warburton being left out of the first test last time round, as long as the same standard is applied I'm happy.


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 1:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:In terms of what LD? People who likely won't play 80 mins? The front row, likely a flanker, scrum half and a floating one.

Sp for me that would be Jones, LCD, Furlong, Beirne and Davies

There you go. So AWJ should be OK for captain ?

He is just the man for the job for my liking. OK

Eh? He's been made tour captain. As I've said I think there will be at least 2 captains across the 3 tests.

Trust me, he will be captaining the team for the three tests as well, you might not like it, thats your prerogative , but you need to suck it up, because it's happening. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 1:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:In terms of what LD? People who likely won't play 80 mins? The front row, likely a flanker, scrum half and a floating one.

Sp for me that would be Jones, LCD, Furlong, Beirne and Davies

There you go. So AWJ should be OK for captain ?

He is just the man for the job for my liking. OK

Eh? He's been made tour captain. As I've said I think there will be at least 2 captains across the 3 tests.

Trust me, he will be captaining the team for the three tests as well, you might not like it, thats your prerogative , but you need to suck it up, because it's happening. OK

Not sure you're following the conversation. If he's on the pitch he will be captain as he's been made the tour captain. I think there will be at least 2 captains.

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Post by R!skysports Tue 25 May 2021, 1:57 pm

I have no problems with him being selected and Captain. He had a good 6 nations and generally has learnt how to handle refs and play on the line.

yes, he had a bad last 10 mins in the 6 nations where he lost complete control, but show me a player who hasn't.

He will put his passion and his body into it and while there might be some technically better second rows there, the margins are tight, so you would expect to go with someone who has shown to be a leader on the pitch.

Captains if he is off.....

Well I hope not Farrel, who has proved to be a terrible captain.

Maybe Hogg - who has grown into the role


PS - The uproar i the last lions was he was out of form and injured, so should not have toured.....which was borne out by the fact he was injured and out of form at the start of the tests.... :-)

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 1:58 pm

Might be.

AWJ and Hogg.

Anyway, I'm done doing this with you.

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Post by BamBam Tue 25 May 2021, 2:02 pm

More off topic posting from mikey, doesn't it get boring having to continually drag the debate to a side where you think you might have a point Laugh

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 May 2021, 2:04 pm

Another thing, is making personal attacks on players and posters just to rile them up, and then complain to the mods when they comment back. I've noticed a couple regularly do it. Only pathetic little people do that. Someone else complained about your lies yesterday btw, I'm sure the mods will confirm that for you Wink.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 25 May 2021, 2:05 pm

This thread looks like being the unqualified success I thought it would be.

I raise my glass to Alun Wyn Jones.

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Post by BamBam Tue 25 May 2021, 2:06 pm

Deary me, lost your head haven't you mikey lad. Take a deep breath

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 May 2021, 2:12 pm

Little people making personal attacks again. It's in plain view and says a lot, so I don't have anything more to add to that. You know what Mark Twain said and all Very Happy

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 May 2021, 2:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:This thread looks like being the unqualified success I thought it would be.

I raise my glass to Alun Wyn Jones.

Laugh Laugh I can drink to that.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 2:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say there's more competition for the Lions than Wales for 1 point. I'd say the likely starting locks would be Itoje and Jones and I'd personally be surprised that Itoje would come off the pitch. I'd also wouldn't be shocked if Gatland went with a 6 2 bench split meaning its more likely to see see a couple of locks come on and possibly Itoje to blindside flanker. Not a big fan of that myself but can definitely see it happening. I can't see over 3 tests Jones playing every minute.

There's a lot of sense in that, I agree with much of it, but "unlikely" is a stretch. You should have stuck with "possibility".

Which, of course, would mean "who would captain the team if Jones wasn't there?" and the answer to that is unknown as there isn't a suitable alternative. Therein lies the problem.

Well its likely in my opinion hence thats what I've written and seemingly only a possibility in yours. And yes that is the question. For me the other possibles haven't really changed: Itoje, Curry, Farrell and Hogg the front runners for me and all likely to be on the pitch barring injury.

"likely in my opinion" is vastly different from your previous post. A chasm of difference.

None of the other names you mention are suitable for referee management. Itoje is a penalty magnet, Farrell is a card waiting to happen and Hogg is a full back. I've no idea why you've mentioned Curry.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 2:55 pm

Not really no Phil. Unless we're stating definitive facts anything we write is just our opinion. We don't all have to use the words in my opinion before saying it, afterall you haven't while stating your opinion on Itoje and Farrell.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 2:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really no Phil. Unless we're stating definitive facts anything we write is just our opinion. We don't all have to use the words in my opinion before saying it, afterall you haven't while stating your opinion on Itoje and Farrell.

I mentioned facts about Itoje and Farrell, with reasons given.

As I wrote, so much front but so much transparency.

It's just a waste of time as you can't admit to your own errors. Never mind.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 3:01 pm

'None of the other names you mention are suitable for referee management.'

Now that's not a fact at all Phil, that is your opinion.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 25 May 2021, 3:03 pm

It's a fact for the reasons given. The reasons you have refused to acknowledge let alone interact with. Poor, very poor.

Typical behaviour after being put right so many times previously. Tedious and tiresome and, of course, pointless.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 25 May 2021, 3:03 pm

I'm just pleased we have Maro Itoje to do the work of two men again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 25 May 2021, 3:04 pm

It's simply not a fact. Thats your opinion, and you've followed it up with reasoning but still an opinion. Do you know what a fact is?

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Post by Oakdene Tue 25 May 2021, 3:28 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm just pleased we have Maro Itoje to do the work of two men again.

Well he does give away enough penalties for two men.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 25 May 2021, 3:42 pm

Is anybody managing referees well these days?

Trends in officiating change all the time. I can't recall a season when captains have been so ineffectual. The most important inputs for a referee now, are his assistants and the TMO. That's three people no-one on or off the pitch can influence.

Managing the referee is currently overrated. There were bad decisions, which affected match outcomes, in European club competition this season, but none of them were cases of a captain out-managing his opponent.

The press laughed when Owen Farrell was allegedly told to stay out of the way of the referee. I don't know if it's true but it sounds like good advice right now.

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Alun Wyn Jones, Lions Captain - The Thread Empty Re: Alun Wyn Jones, Lions Captain - The Thread

Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 May 2021, 3:55 pm

Things with referees will change when the fans come back in and start jeering the refs, or doing the slow clap or what ever.

They will have nowhere to hide when the fans are back, so you might see an upturn in their performances. Fingers Crossed

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