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Alun Wyn Jones, Lions Captain - The Thread

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 25 May 2021, 11:07 am

First topic message reminder :

A thread to to debate the qualities (or lack of depending on your standpoint) of AWJ as Lions captain.

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Post by The Oracle Sun 06 Jun 2021, 5:50 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's a big difference not knowing a players history and not having seen him play a game.....I don't understand how in any level of punderity that that would be ok.

The BBC operates in the dark ages pundit wise, it needs a major overhaul.

Don’t they have Paul O’Connell and Sam Warburton, Dylan Hartley, John Barclay, all on the panel? Maybe not all together but a couple at a time when their nations are playing? Not sure you can get much more ‘current’ than those 4 very recently retired international captains of the 4 ‘home’ nations involved in the 6N?! (And Jiffy is allowed as he’s a legend Run). rest are past it and played in a different era with different rules and standards so I can see why it would be good to get rid of them. Still, they don’t actually bother me personally.
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Post by BamBam Sun 06 Jun 2021, 5:56 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
BamBam wrote:Only someone who pretends to have played the game keeps banging on about their playing credentials

You're over compensating for something lad

BamBam, I've "liked" your post to show you I didn't "dislike" you. I try not to "dislike" without at least giving the poster the courtesy of qualified reply. I try to either "like" or reply with my opinion.

So that you fully understand my view....this is a forum for everyone, no matter if we have actual playing experience, watching live games, watching games on the box or just reading sports columns.

With regard to a pundit not knowing "one" particular players history but yet having a deep understanding the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game.....well it speaks volumes

Don’t worry about the dislikes, it’s one of the usual saddos

As for the rest, my point was targeted at someone who thinks it’s ok to call other posters names because he apparently was a top notch rugby player

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 06 Jun 2021, 7:01 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's a big difference not knowing a players history and not having seen him play a game.....I don't understand how in any level of punderity that that would be ok.

The BBC operates in the dark ages pundit wise, it needs a major overhaul.

Don’t they have Paul O’Connell and Sam Warburton, Dylan Hartley, John Barclay, all on the panel? Maybe not all together but a couple at a time when their nations are playing? Not sure you can get much more ‘current’ than those 4 very recently retired international captains of the 4 ‘home’ nations involved in the 6N?! (And Jiffy is allowed as he’s a legend Run).  rest are past it and played in a different era with different rules and standards so I can see why it would be good to get rid of them. Still, they don’t actually bother me personally.

You are correct Compadre

Pundits included during this years 6Ns were;
Former France/Leicester Tigers hooker Benjamin Kayser only 36 retired in 2019/20, Warburton 32 retired 2018/19, Jamie Heaslip 37 retired 2018/19, John Barclay 34 retired 2020, Martin Johnson England's greatest captain, Jeremy Guscott, Jonathan Davies, Chris Paterson, Thomas Castaignede, Andy Nicol and Brian Moore.

TV commentary/entertainment was as usual, provided by the Butler & Moore show (astute, articulate, knowledgable as well as fun), Andrew Cotter who is as good as they get and Sara Orchard (qualified rugby ref and coach)

Nothing wrong with that line-up, very well balanced (recently retired and legends of the game)......the only issue is none of them gush uncontrollably over a certain nation and if that's in the dark ages.........well you get my drift
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 06 Jun 2021, 7:26 pm

I don't get what your issue is Fly. I certainly don't wish for a biased panel, just one that is in touch with the modern game.  

Great players don't make great pundits....Martin Johnson, incredible player....awful pundit. Moore, Guscott, Nichols and Davies....dreadful, just not in touch with the modern game.

Maybe there's a generational thing going on here because I'm starting to think you're pulling my leg!

I'm taking a stab in the dark that you're over 50....perhaps a little older. Perhaps that would explain the differing opinions here, it's all I can think of. Some of these guys make my ears bleed they're that bad. You missed of the cream....Woodward!

As you tell....I've more of an issue with the English guys.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 06 Jun 2021, 7:39 pm

BamBam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
BamBam wrote:Only someone who pretends to have played the game keeps banging on about their playing credentials

You're over compensating for something lad

BamBam, I've "liked" your post to show you I didn't "dislike" you. I try not to "dislike" without at least giving the poster the courtesy of qualified reply. I try to either "like" or reply with my opinion.

So that you fully understand my view....this is a forum for everyone, no matter if we have actual playing experience, watching live games, watching games on the box or just reading sports columns.

With regard to a pundit not knowing "one" particular players history but yet having a deep understanding the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game.....well it speaks volumes

Don’t worry about the dislikes, it’s one of the usual saddos

As for the rest, my point was targeted at someone who thinks it’s ok to call other posters names because he apparently was a top notch rugby player

Yes, Definitely a saddo key board warrior, it dislikes every post I put up Tumbleweed

Mate this is a cracking forum site compared to a lot out there, we just have to put up / ignore the cwazies on here

Anyway whoever is Captain Fantastic, there's 15 leaders on the pitch, so let's hope we perform as unified squad and come away with a series victory, come Saturday 26th June 2021 we'll be one nation "LIONS"
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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 06 Jun 2021, 9:41 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't get what your issue is Fly. I certainly don't wish for a biased panel, just one that is in touch with the modern game.  

Great players don't make great pundits....Martin Johnson, incredible player....awful pundit. Moore, Guscott, Nichols and Davies....dreadful, just not in touch with the modern game.

Maybe there's a generational thing going on here because I'm starting to think you're pulling my leg!

I'm taking a stab in the dark that you're over 50....perhaps a little older. Perhaps that would explain the differing opinions here, it's all I can think of. Some of these guys make my ears bleed they're that bad. You missed of the cream....Woodward!

As you tell....I've more of an issue with the English guys.

Everything in this world has a shelf life Sarge
Some things clearly outliving their shelf life, yet we hang onto them anyway, it's human nature to be emotionally attached, or because we believe we can tweak or change to revive their freshness (even in my field of mathematical futurism we have a sell by date). You are correct, sometimes, we need to have a hard reality check of the expiration dates on people, products, processes, and programs we cling on to.
Aunty Beeb is no different and are slowly putting the old guard out to graze. It doesn't mean that the old biddies haven't go any less of a clue of the modern game, it's just just that the younger element cannot relate to them and falsely claim that they haven't got a grip on the "current" (that's an human characteristic ever since we became sentient)
The front line pundits (Kayser/Warburton/Heaslip/Barclay) have an average age of under 35 (to put that into perspective SA have a 36 year old player in the squad), they relate to the 20-40 year olds, the other dinosaurs (have an average age of 100) it's human nature for us older biddies to relate to them (I can even write you a mathematical formula to prove that)

You are correct, I am over 50, I did play some decent rugby until I left Scotland to go to uni and I try to watch every Edinburgh/Scotland game and have been lucky enough to get to the last 5 Lions tours and the last 3 world cups and yes you are correct, I probably listen to the Warburtons etc and think "what the bleeding hell are you talking about", however in my field we are engaged to make a statement after deliberation.

If you said the younger element cannot relate to the old guard, I could see where you are coming from, but to suggest Woodward, Guscott, Johnson don't understand the modern game or are dreadful......well give us some credible examples to back that up..... otherwise it's just opinion.

A recent (bit wooly) study.....the average human attention span has fallen from 12 seconds in 2000 (Smartphone point) to eight seconds today. In comparison, scientists believe that the goldfish has an attention span of nine seconds.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Jun 2021, 9:58 am

Some analysis here from Williams for the beeb, I know its just filler from the editors view but jesus this offers nothing:

"I think the Lions have a strong enough squad to beat South Africa," said Williams.

"They have players with confidence and I think the boys will do the business."

The Lions will get together for training in Jersey before an opening match against Japan at Murrayfield on 26 June. The 37-man party will then fly out for eight games in South Africa, including the Test series which starts on 24 July and finishes on 7 August.

"They are two very strong squads," added Williams.

"South Africa are the world champions and have some the best players on the planet on that team and it's all about the match-ups as well.

"It is probably the strongest Lions squad in my lifetime. You have championship winners and players doing well for club and country with some real experience blended with young talent.

"The match-ups are fantastic, but I do think the Lions have them individually. Only time will tell and the Lions players have to play midweek games and prove to Gatland they are up for the job."

Williams also believes past history will help motivate Gatland after the 2-1 series defeat on the 2009 tour 12 years ago when the New Zealander was the forwards coach.

"I was on the 2009 tour and it was the one that got away," said Williams.

"It might have been 12 years ago, but it will be the same for Gats and he will be determined to go there and do the business."

Williams believes the ability to cope with being in a bubble for almost two months will be crucial.

"I have been in situations where you have to stay in hotels for a long time and that's difficult enough, so I feel for the lads," said Williams.

"They are probably used to it by now because they have been involved in a season in that environment.

"The Lions tour was all about the fans and the camaraderie between players and supporters and they are not going to get that experience.

"These boys know they have a job to do and the whole purpose is to win those three Tests.

"It is one of the toughest places to play rugby against the world champions. They will be focused and ready."

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Post by Old Man Wed 09 Jun 2021, 10:10 am

Well according to Matt Dawson not one Springbok would have made the English starting line up for the RWC final.

So I would take anything a pundit says with a pinch of salt

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Jun 2021, 10:14 am

Dawson another BBC pundit selected on name rather than what he offers in analysis. At least he went into detail starting with this gem on Youngs vs de Klerk:

'If there is parity, then De Klerk is going to have to bring out some of his magic. He is very good at changing the tempo of the game. We have not seen the counter-attack, quick-tap penalties and quick line-out throws he is capable of yet.

De Klerk can be a superstar but he can also be a chink in the Springboks' armour. There will be more of Youngs' eye on De Klerk than the other way around and that might be to the England nine's advantage.'

Basically he's saying there de Klerk is better and because of that they may ignore Youngs so he's better and I'll pick him! Doh

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Post by Old Man Wed 09 Jun 2021, 10:33 am

Yep, that makes a lot of sense. Cool

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Post by R!skysports Mon 28 Jun 2021, 11:25 am

Sorry to hear that his is missing the tour. Always gutting to go out that way. Wish him the best on his recovery

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