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TOTAL Lack of Class: ABs 102 - Tonga 0

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LeinsterFan4life
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Post by doctor_grey Sat 03 Jul 2021, 10:03 am

Title says it all.  I love New Zealand, and especially the Rugby culture.  And they are so consistently good, it normally merits the highest level of respect.  

But somewhere something in their mentality is just so totally lacking and effed up.  In this game they went for and scored their final try well after the hooter went instead of kicking the ball out.  Not long before, Tonga conceded a try deep in AB territory, perhaps even on their 5.  Yet the ABs ran it from there.  When a team is totally dominated, just kick the ball back and play 'D'.  Don't just grind their lack of skill or talent into the ground when the only possible reason is to embarrass.  This was close to the best AB side, so they went after them just because they can.  And sometimes Kiwis wonder at how people look at the ABs with some respect and some contempt.    

Rant has concluded.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 10:47 am

Err. For me good on them. This is sport im sure their own fans would want to see them put on 100.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 10:50 am

It's far more disrespectful to effectively stop playing.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 03 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

You really think there is no problem running up a score? Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded? You would be happy if England did that?

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 03 Jul 2021, 12:28 pm

Waste of time arranging this fixture. The Islanders disrespect themselves when they agree to these fixtures at this time of year - I believe Tonga and Samoa were missing their best players?

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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 12:47 pm

doctor_grey wrote:You really think there is no problem running up a score?  Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded?  You would be happy if England did that?

It's professional sport, not a pub game. Good heavens, what next - should NZ have let Tonga score a few tries? Or maybe NZ should have lent Tonga one or two of their players to even it up a little bit?

And, yes, I don't recall any complaints when England racked up a three digit score v Uruguay in 2003.

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Post by Old Man Sat 03 Jul 2021, 12:50 pm

Well it was to be expected.

NZ are doomed whether they do or don’t

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 1:33 pm

NZ are their own worst enemy a lot of the time

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Post by Brendan Sat 03 Jul 2021, 4:31 pm

I think the score was to be massive once Tonga struggled to get a squad together.  When you have semi pro players against top professionals you would expect a 100 point win.

New Zealand will be the real losers (after Italy who have no games) with the fixtures they got.  They play 3 weak teams who will be missing their key NH players because of covid rules and PI union finances.  They won't be tried in any of the games and following on from the TT will be going in with massive expectations/pressure. It will all be running and no defence or phyisicallity. It will just be training for 3 weeks. I think they might pay for it in the RC.

On the other hand Oz have France, Argentina have Wales and SA have the Lions so will be tested to a high physical standard and should be much more match sharpe and their system will be fully tested at international level. Add in the loss by the Bulls and TT results have Oz and SA fans a bit nervous. I would probably say that SA got more of a workout from Georgia than NZ will from their games.

The more I think about it the sooner the new Japanese league is up and running with 12 strong teams (rather than each team having 5 stars and others being semi-pro.  Currently for the PIs it's declare for NZ or Australia or go the other side of the world.  With the Japan league PI players can go to Japan and earn good money but will easily be able to get back home for matches. Japan can only cap so many players so might see more NZ/Oz players looking for PI heritage when they are over in Japan looking to play international level.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 03 Jul 2021, 4:31 pm

Duty281 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:You really think there is no problem running up a score?  Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded?  You would be happy if England did that?

It's professional sport, not a pub game. Good heavens, what next - should NZ have let Tonga score a few tries? Or maybe NZ should have lent Tonga one or two of their players to even it up a little bit?

And, yes, I don't recall any complaints when England racked up a three digit score v Uruguay in 2003.
Well, we didn't have this board for me to launch any complaints back then.....

Of course, this is pro sport and the Tongans knew they were in for a major league beating, but there are still limits. Just kick the ball back, especially from your own freakin 5 and play defense. No gifts.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 4:33 pm

I think the key part there doc is 'no gifts'.

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Post by Old Man Sat 03 Jul 2021, 4:43 pm

Brendan wrote:I think the score was to be massive once Tonga struggled to get a squad together.  When you have semi pro players against top professionals you would expect a 100 point win.

New Zealand will be the real losers (after Italy who have no games) with the fixtures they got.  They play 3 weak teams who will be missing their key NH players because of covid rules and PI union finances.  They won't be tried in any of the games and following on from the TT will be going in with massive expectations/pressure. It will all be running and no defence or phyisicallity.  It will just be training for 3 weeks.  I think they might pay for it in the RC.

On the other hand Oz have France, Argentina have Wales and SA have the Lions so will be tested to a high physical standard and should be much more match sharpe and their system will be fully tested at international level.  Add in the loss by the Bulls and TT results have Oz and SA fans a bit nervous.  I would probably say that SA got more of a workout from Georgia than NZ will from their games.

The more I think about it the sooner the new Japanese league is up and running with 12 strong teams (rather than each team having 5 stars and others being semi-pro.  Currently for the PIs it's declare for NZ or Australia or go the other side of the world.  With the Japan league PI players can go to Japan and earn good money but will easily be able to get back home for matches.  Japan can only cap so many players so might see more NZ/Oz players looking for PI heritage when they are over in Japan looking to play international level.

SA fans aren’t too bothered about the Bulls losing to Benneton, apart from it being a tad embarrassing for the Bulls themselves.

I think the SA teams will be ready for the URC.

As for test preperation as long as the Boks don’t lose key players for the RC. Pollard will be crucial for them as the back ups are the inconsistent Jantjies and conservative Morne Steyn.

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Post by Brendan Sat 03 Jul 2021, 4:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:You really think there is no problem running up a score?  Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded?  You would be happy if England did that?

It's professional sport, not a pub game. Good heavens, what next - should NZ have let Tonga score a few tries? Or maybe NZ should have lent Tonga one or two of their players to even it up a little bit?

And, yes, I don't recall any complaints when England racked up a three digit score v Uruguay in 2003.
Well, we didn't have this board for me to launch any complaints back then.....

Of course, this is pro sport and the Tongans knew they were in for a major league beating, but there are still limits.  Just kick the ball back, especially from your own freakin 5 and play defense.  No gifts.  

You would think the coach would change style to give their players a better workout. Would have to wonder how strong any Mona Pacifica team will be going off this as realistically these are the players that will fill the squad not the Euro based players who will be too expensive.

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Post by Brendan Sat 03 Jul 2021, 4:58 pm

When you see how teams that use to be competitive like Tonga, Samoa and Canada and how much they have fallen (Japan and Georgia being the opposite). What you realise is that without a good underage program and a domestic setup that can get players professional rugby the teams are never going to make it.

We have seen the decline of Tonga and Samoa at under 20s and this result is just a continuation of that decline where they struggle against teams like Spain.

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Post by Brendan Sat 03 Jul 2021, 8:53 pm

Argentina getting a good workout from Romania.

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Post by Cyril Sat 03 Jul 2021, 11:19 pm

Every side should give their best from the 1st minute until the last. Tonga are awful, but it’s not NZ’s fault. A poor side deserved to be smashed as it’s the only way they can look to improve. Chapeau to NZ for going right to the whistle.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 11:24 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:You really think there is no problem running up a score?  Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded?  You would be happy if England did that?

It's professional sport, not a pub game. Good heavens, what next - should NZ have let Tonga score a few tries? Or maybe NZ should have lent Tonga one or two of their players to even it up a little bit?

And, yes, I don't recall any complaints when England racked up a three digit score v Uruguay in 2003.
Well, we didn't have this board for me to launch any complaints back then.....

Of course, this is pro sport and the Tongans knew they were in for a major league beating, but there are still limits.  Just kick the ball back, especially from your own freakin 5 and play defense.  No gifts.  

I don't believe there are limits, teams just play to the end. Kicking the ball back to Tonga because NZ believe they've racked up enough points would just be patronising and insulting.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 03 Jul 2021, 11:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:You really think there is no problem running up a score?  Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded?  You would be happy if England did that?

It's professional sport, not a pub game. Good heavens, what next - should NZ have let Tonga score a few tries? Or maybe NZ should have lent Tonga one or two of their players to even it up a little bit?

And, yes, I don't recall any complaints when England racked up a three digit score v Uruguay in 2003.

You don't recall any complaints back when you were seven?

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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Jul 2021, 11:52 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:You really think there is no problem running up a score?  Running from your own 5 when up by 80 and not kicking the ball out when the hooter has sounded?  You would be happy if England did that?

It's professional sport, not a pub game. Good heavens, what next - should NZ have let Tonga score a few tries? Or maybe NZ should have lent Tonga one or two of their players to even it up a little bit?

And, yes, I don't recall any complaints when England racked up a three digit score v Uruguay in 2003.

You don't recall any complaints back when you were seven?

Eight. And no I don't recall any.

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Post by ebop Sun 04 Jul 2021, 12:14 am

Lack of class by scoring tries? This would have to be one of the strangest things I’ve ever read on here, well done, thanks for the giggle.
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Post by ebop Sun 04 Jul 2021, 12:54 am

Nice to see some of you guys don’t see this game as a warped opportunity to take a pop at the ABs and NZR. The usual suspects have of course. The Tongan team struggled to scratch a team together, and I for one, am proud of them for trying. It gave a lot of their new/young players a taste of what’s required at the top. Painful score line and the ABs didn’t take the foot off. The ABs played reasonably accurately and unselfishly and that was good to see from a kiwi standpoint. Some nice team tries were scored. Fiji will put up a stronger challenge.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 04 Jul 2021, 10:35 am

Its obvious the ABs consider themselves above playing teams like this, probably because it isnt worth any money to them. Thats the reason I imagine that they set out to trash Tonga and embbarass them.

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Post by The Oracle Sun 04 Jul 2021, 11:22 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Its obvious the ABs consider themselves above playing teams like this, probably because it isnt worth any money to them. Thats the reason I imagine that they set out to trash Tonga and embbarass them.


Say what?! Headscratch
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Post by ebop Sun 04 Jul 2021, 12:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:NZ are their own worst enemy a lot of the time
Quite a random statement there guns. Are you able to elaborate what you mean?
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sun 04 Jul 2021, 6:40 pm

Brendan wrote:I think the score was to be massive once Tonga struggled to get a squad together.  When you have semi pro players against top professionals you would expect a 100 point win.

New Zealand will be the real losers (after Italy who have no games) with the fixtures they got.  They play 3 weak teams who will be missing their key NH players because of covid rules and PI union finances.  They won't be tried in any of the games and following on from the TT will be going in with massive expectations/pressure. It will all be running and no defence or phyisicallity.  It will just be training for 3 weeks.  I think they might pay for it in the RC.

On the other hand Oz have France, Argentina have Wales and SA have the Lions so will be tested to a high physical standard and should be much more match sharpe and their system will be fully tested at international level.  Add in the loss by the Bulls and TT results have Oz and SA fans a bit nervous.  I would probably say that SA got more of a workout from Georgia than NZ will from their games.

The more I think about it the sooner the new Japanese league is up and running with 12 strong teams (rather than each team having 5 stars and others being semi-pro.  Currently for the PIs it's declare for NZ or Australia or go the other side of the world.  With the Japan league PI players can go to Japan and earn good money but will easily be able to get back home for matches.  Japan can only cap so many players so might see more NZ/Oz players looking for PI heritage when they are over in Japan looking to play international level.
The new leagues in Japan are keeping their 5 foreign player limit unfortunately and the main focus will be on recruiting players that can qualify for Japan through residency.

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Post by tigertattie Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:40 am

I’m sure it would have been far better if the ref ended the game with 20 mins to go like they do in school boy rugby to save embarrassment to the side being humped

Wouldn’t be patronising to Tonga in the slightest eh
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Post by BamBam Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:45 am

Yeah I can't agree with doc on this one

The ABs side is such a competitive environment, anyone who gets the opportunity has to go all out in every moment, there's no room to take your foot off the gas just because the game is won.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

What is more unacceptable is the Clubs not releasing players for international duty. If Tonga had their players released the match would have turned out less of a farce.

The conundrum is these tier two nations want to play more tier one test sides, but it does them no favour when they can’t put their best players on the pitch.

Perhaps these type of matches need better scheduling where players are guaranteed to be available.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:19 pm

I believe this match was within the international window.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:27 pm

Then WR need to pull up their socks

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:04 pm

Nowt they can do I don't think. You can't force players to play games in that respect.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:10 pm

Well that is the question, isn’t it?

Did they want to play or not?

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Post by The Oracle Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:15 pm

We then get into the realms of dodgy deals for players to essentially retire themselves from international duty in order to secure a contract. We’ve seen this in France over the years (other places too I expect) where the player (e.g. a Fijian) is offered a contract but on the strongly worded basis that they need to be ‘available all season’ (hint, hint). A naughty way to get round the international window thing.
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Post by BigGee Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:16 pm

I think the fact that anyone coming from Europe and i assume from Japan as well, was going to have to quarantine for two weeks certainly did not help them round up their best players.

With that in mind, this was a match that should never have been played, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 06 Jul 2021, 5:32 pm

BamBam wrote:Yeah I can't agree with doc on this one

The ABs side is such a competitive environment, anyone who gets the opportunity has to go all out in every moment, there's no room to take your foot off the gas just because the game is won.
Well, you should agree with me.  If you ever have an accident and you wake up on the table, the doc with the evil grin and unwashed hands will be me......

I agree this match should never have happened.  Further, the ABs should not have put out their best side.  What did they learn?   Their best side is 100 points better than Tonga bereft of many of their best players?  As they say here in New Jersey, home of Tony Soprano:  "So freakin what?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXx8z0ERbQ

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 8:15 pm

Thats pretty dark

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Post by Big Wed 07 Jul 2021, 11:16 am

Despite the score line and inevitable lack of competitivity - I bet there were quite a few semi-pro players very very happy to get their day on the pitch with a world class side. I've played as an amateur against a pro side doing their warm ups, and you know you are going to lose - but you still enjoy it, and take what you can from it. As the amateur side you approach differently and instead of looking at the score you look at all the little victories you can get along the way, for me it's when you beat player x in a lineout, manage to tackle player y, turnover at a ruck against them, and so on. And yes, like the ABs the side I played against were utterly brutal all the way through. Why? Not because of disrespect for us but because they needed to practice playing the way they needed to play when their proper matches started. Nowt wrong with it in my view.

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