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Post by king_carlos Tue 10 Aug 2021, 4:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12. Wink

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power! Whistle

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Post by Geordie Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:09 pm

So LCD out ....and Watson confirmed out. Replacement yet to be named

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:29 pm

George already called up GF. Not seen confirmation on Watson as yet. Lynagh you would think for him?

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Post by Geordie Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:31 pm

Ah, well right choice. He should have been in anyway...

What about Marchant?

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Post by Poorfour Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:37 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:I'd agree that Steward looks to be out ahead - though I wonder if given his size he will need to do what Mike Brown did and work on adjusting his stride pattern so that he can accelerate faster. He looks great at club level but will have less time at international level so acceleration becomes much more critical.

But then, Eddie has shown he's quite happy to sacrifice security in a fullback for a more attacking option.

Having watched Freddie a lot from a young age I don't think pace will be an issue defensively. His positioning is so good that he isn't a fullback to be burnt by wingers when he's tracking back to cover probing kicks. He's actually been fantastic at doing that for Tigers.

Whether he struggles to offer much joining the line in attack will be interesting against international defences. The step up in quality of defences at international level from the Premiership is huge. Close to the line Steward tends to run really good lines off 9 and 10 to use his size to try to get over the line. Further out he acts as a distributor or support runner rather than scything through like some fullbacks do.

Jones also showed he was happy to sacrifice attacking options for security in picking Brown as first choice fullback for a long time though!

Steward reminds me quite a lot of Brown - a proper fullback rather than a generic back three player - and as you say his positioning off the ball is already excellent, which is the hallmark of a great fullback. I also recognise that he runs good lines - but my point is that there's less space and time to get up to speed at international level, so working on his acceleration will help him almost regardless of how good he is.

The view that you sacrifice attack for security with Brown is a bit of a lazy generalisation, though. His ability to retain the ball in the tackle earned him a lot of criticism for not passing - but it delivered a lot of front foot ball that sparked additional moves. And it was noticeable that after he was dropped England did a promo montage of "England scoring tries" for their next series - and in literally every clip used Brown was in the frame, running a supporting line that would have ensured either quick ruck ball or a try scored. He wasn't as creative as Daly and it's very possible that he wasn't the right player for England's 2018-19 tactics. But he was never the purely defensive caricature he's often painted as being.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:38 pm

For me I get that George wasn't involved. If he was then the Blamire is never getting any time of the bench even, I think he should. Similar to no Robson opening up at least 1 novice SH place. The Ford omission opens up a definite place for Smith etc.

I like Marchant alot but as a centre. If we're wanting to replace a winger (presumably the position Jones was considering Watson for) then I think Lynagh is much the better option. As above though I'd have Hassell-Collins but he's not being considered by the looks of it.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:48 pm

I'd guess Nowell has a very good chance of a recall with Watson ruled out.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:57 pm

Poorfour wrote:Steward reminds me quite a lot of Brown - a proper fullback rather than a generic back three player - and as you say his positioning off the ball is already excellent, which is the hallmark of a great fullback. I also recognise that he runs good lines - but my point is that there's less space and time to get up to speed at international level, so working on his acceleration will help him almost regardless of how good he is.

The view that you sacrifice attack for security with Brown is a bit of a lazy generalisation, though. His ability to retain the ball in the tackle earned him a lot of criticism for not passing - but it delivered a lot of front foot ball that sparked additional moves. And it was noticeable that after he was dropped England did a promo montage of "England scoring tries" for their next series - and in literally every clip used Brown was in the frame, running a supporting line that would have ensured either quick ruck ball or a try scored. He wasn't as creative as Daly and it's very possible that he wasn't the right player for England's 2018-19 tactics. But he was never the purely defensive caricature he's often painted as being.

I don't think Brown offered nothing in attack. His ability to routinely beat the first defender was excellent of course and created many opportunities.

For his many strengths it remains that he does have a passing game about as accurate and threatening as a spud gun being wielded by a blindfolded toddler though.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 19 Oct 2021, 4:03 pm

king_carlos wrote:I'd guess Nowell has a very good chance of a recall with Watson ruled out.

It is possible but, to be honest, crazy. He's played one game in forever. Love to see him back involved but he needs to play more first.

Be great to see Cockanasinga as well, but he's crocked too isn't he?

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Post by Geordie Tue 19 Oct 2021, 4:11 pm

Get Slightholme in!

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Post by lostinwales Tue 19 Oct 2021, 4:15 pm

We could be starting with May and Radwan on the wings. How fast would that be?

More likely Malins on one wing to be honest.

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Post by Geordie Tue 19 Oct 2021, 4:30 pm

10 Smith
11 May
13 Tuilagi
14 Radwan
15 Malins

We'll there'd certainly be fireworks there!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Oct 2021, 6:14 pm

Marchant in then.

Didn't initially realise 8ts an ACL rupture too. I'll just wait for the doctor to come and say what that means but with the guys lining up behind him now a real blow for him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 19 Oct 2021, 6:50 pm

Marchant's recall makes a lot of sense. Brings some much needed pace to the midfield. He should have been in from the start. Could be a good option for the 23 shirt.

Jamie George should have been in from the start as well. He's looked decent for Sarries. Blamire and Dolly can play in the Tonga game and then George and Blamire for Aus and SA. Blamire maybe starts Vs SA and then reverts to the bench Vs SA. Spreads the minutes fairly well between the three of them.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Oct 2021, 7:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marchant in then.

Didn't initially realise 8ts an ACL rupture too. I'll just wait for the doctor to come and say what that means but with the guys lining up behind him now a real blow for him.

Watson's come back from two serious achilles injuries already and somehow kept improving. I'd back him to bounce back.

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Post by Geordie Tue 19 Oct 2021, 7:29 pm

Acl for Watson...oh dear. Not good

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 19 Oct 2021, 8:31 pm

Real shame for Watson. On form, such a good player.
Only full time wings in the squad are May and Radwan. Hopefully we get to see Marchant get some meaningful game time.

Jamie George in for LCD.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 19 Oct 2021, 8:40 pm

I expect that Dolly won't play - he's mainly there for experience. Same for Freeman.

I also expect that Malins and/or Marchant may play on the wing at some point, but am very excited to see Radwan and May line up together.

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Post by nlpnlp Tue 19 Oct 2021, 10:49 pm

[quote="lostinwales"]I expect that Dolly won't play - he's mainly there for experience.

Jamie Blamire isn't exactly experienced - 17 odd senior games for the Falcons, with a good few of those coming off the bench and not first choice for his club  There is going to be a lot of pressure on a young, inexperienced hooker at some stage in the 3 matches.  At least there is plenty of experience at prop to support them.

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Post by Geordie Tue 19 Oct 2021, 11:03 pm

Blamires played 50 times for the falcons...

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Oct 2021, 11:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Blamires played 50 times for the falcons...

50 apps exactly but only 12 starts to be fair. 3 of those starts were in the Championship and 5 of them in the Championship Cup it's got to be added. So only 4 starts for Falcons in fully professional competitions. 3 in the Prem and 1 in the Challenge Cup.

He also started for England against Canada as well of course. Canada aren't in a good place right now though, without Tyler Ardron and Matt Tierney they were missing definitely their best two forwards and probably their best two players.

I really rate Blamire as you know GF but he is inexperienced, especially as front rows go.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 20 Oct 2021, 4:18 am

Faf, Kolbe, PSdT, Malherbe and Snyman all ruled out of the AIs for the Boks. They'll still be very strong as they are a really good side but not quite the same impressive unit they are at full strength.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 7:21 am

Experience is great to have but sometimes a callow youth can take to things like a duck to water.

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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 8:35 am

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Blamires played 50 times for the falcons...

50 apps exactly but only 12 starts to be fair. 3 of those starts were in the Championship and 5 of them in the Championship Cup it's got to be added. So only 4 starts for Falcons in fully professional competitions. 3 in the Prem and 1 in the Challenge Cup.

He also started for England against Canada as well of course. Canada aren't in a good place right now though, without Tyler Ardron and Matt Tierney they were missing definitely their best two forwards and probably their best two players.

I really rate Blamire as you know GF but he is inexperienced, especially as front rows go.

I was merely pointing out the fact he has double the number that was claimed above....

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:18 am

I'd hardly call Blamire inexperienced.

I personally think Steward is too slow and he'll perhaps be found wanting at some point....a bit like Goode. Would happily be proved wrong though as I like his basics a lot.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:23 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd hardly call Blamire inexperienced.

I personally think Steward is too slow and he'll perhaps be found wanting at some point....a bit like Goode. Would happily be proved wrong though as I like his basics a lot.

See debate above with carlos. I suspect that like Brown the issue for Steward is not going to be top speed but acceleration. He's a big, rangy guy and that usually means he will need time and distance to hit top speed that he won't get at international level. He may benefit from some time with Margot Wells to work on taking faster, shorter strides in the first phase of his runs.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:28 am

His positioning is great though. His size could be a considerable asset in an attacking sense too.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:31 am

Any perceived lack of pace on his part could well be mitigated by the pace we have on the wings. May's positional awareness can also be very good

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:38 am

Has Jones messed up with not picking Lynagh and giving him some minutes even if he doesn't think he's quite ready? I agree overall that there are better wingers currently but not too many who can play for another good team.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:42 am

Personally I really don't like the idea of capping players just to stop other teams picking them.

I think Lynagh could, possibly should, have a long international career with someone. I am not convinced he has enough of a USP to make him first choice for England,

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:48 am

I'm all for a cynical hoovering of talent! I do agree, particularly right wingers Radwan and Sleightholme look a step up, Cokanasiga plays both sides a bit too. But Lynagh keeps scoring. In touch with Jones on things to work on but Aus are clearly going to be knocking on his door now. You just can't tell what's round the corner and for me England fall down by not being entirely aware of what options players have (not in this case granted) and do take a too nicey nicey approach where others do not.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 10:10 am

Quite like this from Kitson in the Guardian:

'Never let it be said Eddie Jones does not have the courage of his convictions. Sidestepping the prevailing wisdom has never bothered him and neither does he mind making tough decisions. It is not compulsory for England head coaches to toe the party line nor are they judged, in Jones’s experience, by how many affectionate cards sit on their mantelpieces at Christmas.

But, strewth, he can be brutal. As Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Ben Earl, Alex Lozowski, George Ford, Danny Care, Dan Robson, Ollie Lawrence, Ted Hill and any number of others can testify, he gives people the benefit of the doubt as often as a starving rattlesnake. Once you cease to be flavour of the month or Jones senses the vaguest hint of complacency, banishment to the dusty outback of selectorial oblivion can be horribly swift.

Having named 180 players for assorted England squads in his six years in charge, no one could accuse Jones of not playing the field. He swipes right as enthusiastically as any lovestruck teen and, this time around the uncapped Raffi Quirke, Nic Dolly, Tommy Freeman and Mark Atkinson are included. Even Jones would not have included every member of that quartet on his coupon last spring.

It turns out, though, that what is really driving Jones is less the youthful potential of certain individuals – Quirke and Freeman certainly possess plenty of that – but the scarring from his previous coaching life. As coach of Australia back in 2003 Jones felt he kept faith for too long with a few of the team’s old guard. The Wallabies took England to extra-time in the final in Sydney but, clearly, a few regrets still linger.

Hence the deliberate decision to change things, to throw another cat in among a reshuffled bunch of pigeons, and, perhaps, to adapt England’s game. Look beyond the immediate headlines and the oohs and aahs of the gallery and this might be one of the swifter England squads ever selected. Adam Radwan, Jonny May, Harry Randall, Quirke, Sam Simmonds … Jones clearly fancies seeing some go-faster stripes on the old sweet chariot.

And yet. With Jones there frequently has to be a caveat because his choices can so often run contrary to the latest available evidence. If the revitalised Vunipola brothers and George are not back playing at international intensity, then many of us need to take an urgent trip to Specsavers. There are five “tournament chunks” of time left before the 2023 World Cup and Jones has confirmed that “all the foundations for the team” will be lain down at next week’s camp in Jersey. Fine, but how is anyone truly going to know if Jamie Blamire or Dolly are better hooking options than George if they never share the same training field?

There is also a sense the bulk of this autumn squad must have been chosen before Sunday afternoon, when the ousted Saracens contingent made one of the more striking statements in recent Premiership history in a 71-17 win at Bath. How else to explain the absence from England’s plans of the outstanding Vunipola brothers, George and Earl? Or, conversely, the inclusion of Charlie Ewels and Will Stuart, who both experienced a chastening afternoon. “If I had any second thoughts, we’d have a different squad,” said Jones, sticking fixedly to his latest “Treat ’em mean, Keep ’em keen” masterplan.

But hang on a moment. Does there really have to be a direct correlation between a chain of events in Australia two decades ago and England’s situation now? Jones says he is looking for “discretionary effort” – ie people busting a gut to get on the World Cup plane – but when does the constant churn of assistant coaches and players cease to be a positive in terms of building relationships and loyalty? There are times in coaching when a big stick is useful but even very senior players often respond better to a quiet carrot or two.

Eddie Jones has wielded the axe with Billy Vunipola, one of the senior players missing from England’s squad. Photograph: Dave Rogers/PA
For all the excitement and promise of Marcus Smith, Alex Dombrandt, Max Malins and the lightning-quick Radwan, there remains the smaller matter of England’s starting balance. If Smith starts at 10, as he surely should be offered the chance to do, it would seem to make sense to pick his clubmate Dombrandt and a physical ball-carrying centre. But Owen Farrell has been retained as captain and Robson, arguably Smith’s most complementary scrum-half option, is not even in the squad. England do not want to risk falling between two tactical stools.

Then again, who knows? Maybe a slightly experimental November will pay off. Jones’s restless magpie eye, always on the look-out for something new and shiny, could unearth a couple of gems for France in two years’ time. Maybe England will approach the 2022 Six Nations with fresh forward momentum – Jones is a big fan of the Newcastle prop Trevor Davison and no one doubts the promise of Leicester’s George Martin – and with a freewheeling back division. Not to mention their fired-up Saracens contingent pawing frenziedly at the ground, desperate for a recall. In that event Jones’s ruthlessness will have paid off handsomely.'

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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite like this from Kitson in the Guardian:
Then again, who knows? Maybe a slightly experimental November will pay off. '

Ive said from when i saw this squad....hes not overly worried about the "results"...hes picked a strong starting squad which will allow him to look at how some of the pretenders cope against two of the big boys and the physicality of Tonga.

The 6n squad is the one that really matter...IMO. And im sure BIlly V, Isiekwe, Mako, etc etc have all been told to sort it out for then...

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Post by lostinwales Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:04 am

Lynagh keeps scoring because he is a very smart player and gets in the right places, and because he is on the end of an exceptional backline. Newcastle are improving but Radwan does what he does on the end of their backline.

My impression (and it could be wrong) is that Lynagh is a very 'Australian' style winger who has very good basics and the sense to do the right thing at the right time. This is all very valuable, but at the same time we have others with more potential.

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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:24 am

lostinwales wrote:Lynagh keeps scoring because he is a very smart player and gets in the right places, and because he is on the end of an exceptional backline. Newcastle are improving but Radwan does what he does on the end of their backline.

My impression (and it could be wrong) is that Lynagh is a very 'Australian' style winger who has very good basics and the sense to do the right thing at the right time. This is all very valuable, but at the same  time we have others with more potential.

Very true...my biggest gripe is that our backline has been woeful and our wingers have had to make their own try scoring oppertunities...Goneva, Sinoti etc managed to do it....and Radders is aswell.

Ill be fascinated to see what happens club wise...if he moves to a bigger club. Our wing options coming through are crazy.
The bonus of Radwan is his defence...hes very strong, great on high balls, tackles excellently and just has a lack of fear. He'll put his head where only Will Welch would!

It looks like we might actually have a couple of centres on their way aswell....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:36 am

Poorfour wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd hardly call Blamire inexperienced.

I personally think Steward is too slow and he'll perhaps be found wanting at some point....a bit like Goode. Would happily be proved wrong though as I like his basics a lot.

See debate above with carlos. I suspect that like Brown the issue for Steward is not going to be top speed but acceleration. He's a big, rangy guy and that usually means he will need time and distance to hit top speed that he won't get at international level. He may benefit from some time with Margot Wells to work on taking faster, shorter strides in the first phase of his runs.

I doubt he'll need to go down to Surrey for a sprint coach. I think he's still studying part time at Loughborough University and one his good mates is the Uni captain. Between the Hi-Pac and the track there he won't be short of pro level athletes supplementing their income with sprint clinics or just the pro coaches that work down there.

His speed hasn't been a problem so far so I'm interested to see how it goes under the microscope of international rugby. One of his key strengths is positioning, he rarely if ever is static when he takes a ball in attack or under the high ball, he's good at being in motion. His ability to throw big passes off of both hands should let his wingers loose.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:56 am

lostinwales wrote:Lynagh keeps scoring because he is a very smart player and gets in the right places, and because he is on the end of an exceptional backline. Newcastle are improving but Radwan does what he does on the end of their backline.

My impression (and it could be wrong) is that Lynagh is a very 'Australian' style winger who has very good basics and the sense to do the right thing at the right time. This is all very valuable, but at the same  time we have others with more potential.

Lynagh reminds me a lot of a pre-injury Nowell. A player who doesn't have a standout point of difference but who has a rounded skill set and whose reading of the game is good enough to create a lot of opportunities. I like to see that quality in one of the wingers in a side, leaving the other free to be a bit more of a wildcard. But England have a lot of wing (and fullback) options open to them, and Lynagh is still very inexperienced, so I have no issue with him not being picked at this stage. If he keeps scoring at his current rate, though, he'll be hard to ignore for long.
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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:59 am

Nowell was class over the weekend...i wonder if he can actually get a run of games together....

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Post by Old Man Wed 20 Oct 2021, 12:07 pm

Why do you guys think Leinach was not selected? Do you believe he is good enough at this stage for test rugby?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 12:10 pm

Jones has said Lynagh has things he needs to work on.

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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 12:31 pm

He'll pick him in the 6n squad when it matters...assuming Australia havnt got there first.

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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 12:39 pm

Any news on Itoje?

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Post by lostinwales Wed 20 Oct 2021, 1:32 pm

Old Man wrote:Why do you guys think Leinach was not selected? Do you believe he is good enough at this stage for test rugby?

He might be, but he's behind May and Watson. We also have Nowell just back from injury and Cockanasinga injured. We also have a new wonderboy in the form of Radwan, who on paper has the pace of May and the step of Watson in one package. There is plenty of high quality competition with international experience and a bunch of guys who are coming through at the same time.

Lynagh had a chance when Watson dropped out with the ACL injury, but it wasn't a surprise to see his team mate Marchant come in instead, a much more finished player who many of us feel could be starting at 13 anyway.

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Post by Old Man Wed 20 Oct 2021, 1:37 pm

Thanks for the info. I know Aussie supporters see him as English as he learnt his rugby in the UK, not many of them are concerned that he has been touted to play for England.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 2:31 pm

Rennie seems keen. Think we should have tied him down, you never know what's around the corner in either how he develops or what injuries etc are picked up within the 'normal' squad. We probably thought similar when Redpath didn't get capped. Now granted the love of him grew out of all proportion after 1 cap but he still looks like he's going to go onto having a very good international career.

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Post by hugehandoff Wed 20 Oct 2021, 2:53 pm

Do we have any up and coming tightheads to get excited about?

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Post by lostinwales Wed 20 Oct 2021, 2:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rennie seems keen. Think we should have tied him down, you never know what's around the corner in either how he develops or what injuries etc are picked up within the 'normal' squad. We probably thought similar when Redpath didn't get capped. Now granted the love of him grew out of all proportion after 1 cap but he still looks like he's going to go onto having a very good international career.

Redpath...

Owen Farrell is only 30. At the current rate, right or wrong, he could be an England player for another 5 years. Not great for up and coming 12's

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Oct 2021, 2:59 pm

Ojamoh is the guy I really like, just looks so good, but when Redpath does come back his progress could stall.

Re tightheads no one is currently pressing their claims beyond Heyes (who should be there for me now).

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Post by Geordie Wed 20 Oct 2021, 3:23 pm

I still think Lawrence has a lot to offer. Hes a strong direct runner. I wonder what the sticking point is with Eddie. Clearly he likes him, but Lawrence isnt giving him what hes pushing for.

i hope he can push on.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 20 Oct 2021, 4:06 pm

Is Farrell still capable of playing the game he did when the Ford / Farrell partnership first started up? It was mighty effective then. If he is, being outside of Smith could be very interesting, especially if Manu can stay fit
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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 20 Oct 2021, 4:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ojamoh is the guy I really like, just looks so good, but when Redpath does come back his progress could stall.

Re tightheads no one is currently pressing their claims beyond Heyes (who should be there for me now).

Painter and Street are getting some games in the Prem and are learning their stuff. Could be options in a couple of years. Stuart is only 24 I think and Sinckler late 20s so tighthead we aren't in a bad place. Heyes is 22.

Baxter looked a good prospect but switched to loosehead. The under 20s seemed to have a couple of hefty options do they should get some cup time in a couple of weeks you'd hope. Tigers have 18 year old Tim Hoyt on loan at Notts this season (3 appearances 1 try) in the Championship there's a feeling he could be a good player. I think he's English born and bred but has PI particularly Fijian family, he's a big lad.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nemani_nadolo/status/1314987489896157184

I don't think prop is going to be an area of concern for England, there seems to be a bit of a conveyor belt in terms of development. Loosehead there's the big lad from Newcastle and Baxter now he's switched sides. Ralph Adams-Hale might come good if he can stay fit.

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